Should Tiger Return to Butch?

[enduro]

Until someone can counter his point, Haney's swing put stress on Tiger's knee. You can't just dismiss a point by stating that "not everything found on the internet is true." Find an article on the internet that counters his point.

Hmmm, why should we have to prove someone is wrong? If they can assume things, can't others just make opposite assumptions? Is there evidence that Tiger's swing since he got with Haney is directly related to his knee issue?

I thought Tiger has said he's had pain in that knee for many years now going back to his early 20's. I'm not saying anyone is right or wring but really everyone gets to play by the same rules and should have the same expectations. So if person A can make an assumption, why can't person B?

[enduro]

I thought Tiger has said he's had pain in that knee for many years now going back to his early 20's.

So I did some quick research and found this:

"This is the third time that Woods has had surgery on his left knee. In 1994, doctors removed a benign tumor from that knee, and in 2002, Woods got arthroscopic surgery in that knee, according to his web site." So, he has had work there before. Having a scope done in 2002 means he likely had years of stress on it to get there. And this from ESPN: "Woods first went to Haney toward the end of 2002 to overhaul a violent swing that was putting enormous pressure on his left knee. Haney suspects the pain has been increasing, and Woods stopped hitting balls after his rounds at last year's British Open."

[Beretta_Shooter]

This is not where I first came across the theory that Haney's swing puts more stress on Tiger, but therer are some good points made on both sides of this arguement in this article.

http://capelleongolf.com/2009/04/24/...re-hank-haney/

[bogeyhitter25]

It was all mental at Hazeltine. He couldn't make a putt to save his life. He swung the club great 95% of the time.

[Cussin hacker]

Yang whipped him plan and simple. Haney didn't have a thing to do with Tigers bad putting at the PGA. People are way over reacting to Tigers loss. The threads on here make me think a lot of folks just couldn't wait till Tiger blew a lead. Now people want to nit pick and overreact about nothing.

[Elsfan]

He needs to get his mental game back to where it was to win majors. He was not mentally ready to win a major again, that is why he lost. His physical capabilities are fine. I don't like Haney and if he was to switch I would hope he went to someone other than Harmon.

[Elvisliveson]

I don't understand why you're acting so immature and defensive. Did you not say "Tiger lost Sunday because he couldn't make a putt. As you get older that starts to happen under pressure."? I can't dispute that connection?

No, because you asserted essentially the same thing in a thread about VJ Singh's putting when you felt like contradicting someone else. This is a direct quote from you "Although, maybe its just him getting old. They say putting is the first thing that leaves you. I can't believe how many 5'-8' he was missing."

You have just been exposed as the hypocritical, disingenuos, argumentative jerk you are. That's why you have a negative reputation. This is the last I will ever post to you because all you care about is taking people down, no matter how you have to exagerrate, distort misquote and lie to do so. You are the definition of immature and the epitome of someone with low self-esteem.

[Mitch C]

Tiger wins because he is the best clutch putter ever. When, for whatever reason, he isn't, he is very beatable.

Putting is all mental. That is the scary thing about it. One could literally wake up one morning and not be able to make a putt. I mean Chuck Knoblach woke up one day and couldn't throw the ball to first base. Mackey Sasser woke up one day and couldn't throw the ball back the pitcher.

No one is saying that is happening or will happen to Tiger. It is just that his coach doesn't really matter. His putting sets him apart and putting touch has left great players at relatively young ages in the past. It would not be without precedent.

[iacas]

Putting is all mental.

Except that it's not. Without proper technique, it's very hard to make a putt. With the proper technique, you also tend to need the mental side.

Tiger's mental side was there... but the technical side wasn't IMO.

[Mitch C]

Except that it's not. Without proper technique, it's very hard to make a putt. With the proper technique, you also tend to need the mental side.

The technical is a product of the mental. Without the mental, the technical will not be there.

I'm sure someone slow motioned videotaped Chuck Knoblach and told him exactly what he was doing wrong. It would be easy to see. But he couldn't make his mind fix it well enough to stay in baseball. And really I don't buy that about technique. Ultimately the purpose of putting is to get the ball in the hole. Putting is perhaps the only individualized thing left on the tour. Some guys go straight back and straight through. Some go in to square. A very few go in to out and actually hook puts a little. But all of them have figured out how to get the ball in well enough to get on the tour. And for that reason, putting is far more susceptable to mental breakdowns that any other part of the game.

[iacas]

The technical is a product of the mental.

No, it's not. If your right arm is high you pull putts. Tiger's right arm was higher on Saturday and even higher on Sunday. It was lower on Thursday and Friday.

But go on thinking what you'd like, and I'll think what I like. In the end, putting has little to do with Butch or Hank.

[RC]

Erik saw what I saw. He missed left frequently and on what looked like left to right slight breaks he was high, he had his triangle off with a high right side. Some said he looked open, but I tend to agree he had his arms aligned so his right arm was high through the putt. Those weird looks he made where he thought the ball should have turned into the hole... well, on left to right putts that stay high, the majority of the time you have pulled them slightly and may not even know it. There is no way to be certain, of course, but I've missed my share of these kinds of putts and invariably it is a slight pull. Subconsciously, you just don't want to be low, and it takes a lot of faith to pick a line and hit it so you allow the ball to take the slight break right.

Anyway, that is my opinion. And for me it is why right to left putts are easier than left to right. I am much more confident I am not going to get my right arm high on right to lefters. On left lippers, or a ball or two out, right breakers, I have to force myself to hold form and avoid pulls. (Not claiming I always am successful, either.)

[lobsterzilla]

Except that it's not. Without proper technique, it's very hard to make a putt. With the proper technique, you also tend to need the mental side. Tiger's mental side was there... but the technical side wasn't IMO.

agreed completely. His stroke seemed off all weekend, he didnt choke he just didnt figure out how to correct a broken swing mechanic in time to not blow the lead.

[enduro]

No, because you asserted essentially the same thing in a thread about VJ Singh's putting when you felt like contradicting someone else. This is a direct quote from you "Although, maybe its just him getting old. They say putting is the first thing that leaves you. I can't believe how many 5'-8' he was missing."

Vijay Singh is much older. He is almost 50. Not 33.

[enduro]

No, it's not. If your right arm is high you pull putts. Tiger's right arm was higher on Saturday and even higher on Sunday. It was lower on Thursday and Friday.

Why is his arm high? Is it a mental thing making it feel right there? Is it just a slip of the mind, not paying attention putting it there? Was he aware of this the entire time but couldn't adjust? Just poor execution all around? Why was it high? What put it there. What was telling his arm to go there?

[RC]

Why is his arm high? Is it a mental thing making it feel right there? Is it just a slip of the mind, not paying attention putting it there? Was he aware of this the entire time but couldn't adjust? Just poor execution all around? Why was it high? What put it there. What was telling his arm to go there?

If anyone knew the answers to such questions, we would all be great golfers. I've always said the problem with golf is you have to go to sleep. One day you are flushing it every time, or putting lights out... you go to sleep that night - and the next day, what feels identical (but is not) produces nothing like the previous day. It is enough to drive you crazy, but one of the reason golf is so addicting. We will never conquer it. Might as well blame sleep... I do. I think that is a better reason than the change in the position of the moons of Saturn.

[Big_M]

As many have pointed out... stats from 00 and 09 are uncomparable.

switching coaches because of 2nd place... crazy talk... not unless it's four straight 2nd's caused by a swing faltering under pressure (i.e. Phil).

here's another question to ponder... if Tiger wanted to change would Butch take him back... I say No, but who knows.

[enduro]

If anyone knew the answers to such questions, we would all be great golfers. I've always said the problem with golf is you have to go to sleep. One day you are flushing it every time, or putting lights out... you go to sleep that night - and the next day, what feels identical (but is not) produces nothing like the previous day. It is enough to drive you crazy, but one of the reason golf is so addicting. We will never conquer it. Might as well blame sleep... I do. I think that is a better reason than the change in the position of the moons of Saturn.

For sure. I don't know how many times I've figured this game out and was ready to go to q-school, lol. And then the next day it isn't there. I make a lot of mental and physical notes when things are going well. I tend to know at this point what is good and bad. But sometimes the execution isn't there.

I suppose as you play and learn more the gaps between not doing so well get smaller and your standards change. As a beginner you wonder why you're flush today and slicing tomorrow. As you improve you wonder why you're flushing it today and pushing it tomorrow. As you improve more you wonder why your draw isn't moving like it did yesterday. And then you shank one good to remind yourself you're not that good, lol. Eventually the very best wonder why they are 4 yards off with a club today when they weren't yesterday.