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On 12/12/2018 at 11:58 PM, Aj_ ninja said:

I feel like I just push my butt out left, does anyone else feel this way?

This made me laugh! Back in the day, anytime my buddy would hit a particularly good drive I'd tell him, "Yeah, you got your big, fat, left ass cheek into that one didn't you!" And, yes, that was the exact "feel" I was looking for in my swing. But you can't let your head go with it. For me, that's a death move. I like the way Harvey Penick describes it. "Stay behind the ball." 

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My pro recently got me doing drills to stop my hip slide towards the target and promote rotation of my hips through the ball. Hands down it has been the best thing for improving my consistency. And its shallowed out my swing.

Even the best pros only marginally slide their hips.

He got me to take a swing focusing on keeping my right foot planted throughout and releasing the club head, staying stable throughout the swing. I started with the feet together then move onto a normal stance. Gripping the club lightly to help facilitate the release. I have learnt this drill and hit it further and more consistently than I ever have, with a draw.

Edited by Hugh Jars

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2 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

My pro recently got me doing drills to stop my hip slide towards the target and promote rotation of my hips through the ball. Hands down it has been the best thing for improving my consistency. And its shallowed out my swing.

Even the best pros only marginally slide their hips.

He got me to take a swing focusing on keeping my right foot planted throughout and releasing the club head, staying stable throughout the swing. I started with the feet together then move onto a normal stance. Gripping the club lightly to help facilitate the release. I have learnt this drill and hit it further and more consistently than I ever have, with a draw.

Yes. This whole post is for the .001% who stay back and spin out. 99% people sway too much and fight blocks hooks flippy as they bring the path too much from inside when they should just turn after getting the lead foot grounded

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6 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

Even the best pros only marginally slide their hips.

If you consider they slide their hips 4x as much towards the target through impact than amateurs do, then I am not sure it's just marginal.

6 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

He got me to take a swing focusing on keeping my right foot planted throughout and releasing the club head, staying stable throughout the swing.

Most PGA Tour players have their right foot coming off the ground way before impact. Their weight is forward, their hips and body is open, this promotes the right heel coming off the ground.

3 hours ago, jp k said:

This whole post is for the .001% who stay back and spin out.

His post is probably for people who sway way too much. He is saying not to have that much slide and turn the hands over. Not really good advice though.

3 hours ago, jp k said:

99% people sway too much and fight blocks hooks flippy as they bring the path too much from inside when they should just turn after getting the lead foot grounded

By sway, do you mean moving away from the target during the backswing? 

I wouldn't say 99% of golfers sway too much. 99% of golfers do not fight blocks, or flippy hooks. I would say a very low number of golfers fight a hook.

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6 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

My pro recently got me doing drills to stop my hip slide towards the target and promote rotation of my hips through the ball. Hands down it has been the best thing for improving my consistency. And its shallowed out my swing

Have you ever posted a face-on video? Hard to tell if not sliding is good advice for you without it.

6 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

Even the best pros only marginally slide their hips.

I don't consider 4" marginal. It's fairly significant in my book.

6 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

He got me to take a swing focusing on keeping my right foot planted throughout and releasing the club head, staying stable throughout the swing. I started with the feet together then move onto a normal stance. Gripping the club lightly to help facilitate the release. I have learnt this drill and hit it further and more consistently than I ever have, with a draw.

All things equal, sliding your hips forward promotes an in-to-out path which facilitates a draw. If you need to "release the clubhead" to hit a draw then something else is probably going on.

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4 hours ago, jp k said:

Yes. This whole post is for the .001% who stay back and spin out. 99% people sway too much and fight blocks hooks flippy as they bring the path too much from inside when they should just turn after getting the lead foot grounded

99% bring the path too much from the inside? I wish this was the case. I’d say 99% bring the path to much from the outside in. Over the top. Like me. I suffered from a lack of hip rotation in the downswing and balance. The drill I mentioned has helped with that.

im only doing what a professional PGA instructor told me to do after working with me for a few sessions now. And it’s been working. Personally I’d take the advice of someone who has looked at my swing firsthand, with qualifications and years of experience over people lurking on social media forums...just sayin’

13 minutes ago, billchao said:

Have you ever posted a face-on video? Hard to tell if not sliding is good advice for you without it.

I don't consider 4" marginal. It's fairly significant in my book.

All things equal, sliding your hips forward promotes an in-to-out path which facilitates a draw. If you need to "release the clubhead" to hit a draw then something else is probably going on.

Sliding your hips promotes under rotation of the hips on the downswing, keeping them too square to the target and not rotating. The shoulders have to take over. Result - over the top and loss of power. 

Releasing the club squares the club at impact.

I would have thought that this is common sense.

Edited by Hugh Jars

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@Hugh Jars while I agree someone seeing your swing first hand is the way to go these "lurkers" give some of the best input I have ever read. Not everything applies to everyone but the advice here is based on methods with a lot of data to back it up...just sayin

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32 minutes ago, Hugh Jars said:

Sliding your hips promotes under rotation of the hips on the downswing, keeping them too square to the target and not rotating. The shoulders have to take over. Result - over the top and loss of power. 

You can slide your hips without impeding your ability to rotate. It's about how you extend.

32 minutes ago, Hugh Jars said:

Releasing the club squares the club at impact.

Most people interpret "release" as turning the hands over, which tends to send the path left (for a righty). Or they flip.

32 minutes ago, Hugh Jars said:

I would have thought that this is common sense.

You'd be surprised how much of common sense and conventional wisdom in golf is actually incorrect.


I should also point out that what you're describing is your personal feel, and feel ain't real. It's possible you still slide your hips even though you feel like they only rotate. Everyone has different feels.

This thread isn't about feel, though. It's about what's actually happening.

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51 minutes ago, Hugh Jars said:

99% bring the path too much from the inside? I wish this was the case. I’d say 99% bring the path to much from the outside in. Over the top. Like me. I suffered from a lack of hip rotation in the downswing and balance. The drill I mentioned has helped with that.

im only doing what a professional PGA instructor told me to do after working with me for a few sessions now. And it’s been working. Personally I’d take the advice of someone who has looked at my swing firsthand, with qualifications and years of experience over people lurking on social media forums...just sayin’

Sliding your hips promotes under rotation of the hips on the downswing, keeping them too square to the target and not rotating. The shoulders have to take over. Result - over the top and loss of power. 

Releasing the club squares the club at impact.

I would have thought that this is common sense.

Sorry. To clarify: my 100% excludes ott’ers which are not golfers haha 😆 . In order: get left, turn. Imo those who try to consciously get their weight right then left end up bringing the path too far inside and then suffer from blocks and hooks. You may be on that path as you need to fix ott first. Ultimately you’ll realize that weight swivels around like hogan and not back and forth. The sooner you get there the better. You’re pro is not wrong per se. it’s a journey imo

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8 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

My pro recently got me doing drills to stop my hip slide towards the target and promote rotation of my hips through the ball. Hands down it has been the best thing for improving my consistency. And its shallowed out my swing.

All else being equal (which is virtually never the case), rotation will tend to steepen a swing while sliding the hips forward tends to shallow it. Rotation carries the hands outward more, moving the hips forward more tends to let them drop and stay deeper longer (the added axis tilt lowers the right side).

Now, perhaps you were translating the hips too far forward, in which case working on rotation may have been your priority piece.

Maybe.

But the vast majority of golfers need to learn to translate their hips forward more. Yes, most golfers are still too closed at impact, but that rotation is often a much lower priority piece than learning to get their weight forward properly.

8 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

Even the best pros only marginally slide their hips.

You may have a weird definition of "marginally."

#1 OWGR: Dustin Johnson

01.jpg
#2 OWGR: Justin Rose

02.jpg
#3 OWGR: Brooks Koepka

03.jpg

#4 OWGR: Justin Thomas

04.jpg

#5 OWGR: Bryson DeChambeau

05.jpg

And that's just by A5. By A6 their hips have moved another ~50% forward, as they prepare to extend the left knee and really kick up the rotation that they also get.

How else do you think PGA Tour pros get 85-95% of their pressure under their left foot at impact?

Let me put it to you this way… it's a way I've said but maybe not necessarily typed out here on TST, so this will bring a little something new to the topic. You've heard about people "getting to their left side" or "posting up on their left side and then turning around their lead foot?" One of the purposes of the translation of the hips forward (as they rotate, yes, but the rotation really "takes over" later) is to put the center of the pelvis above the left ankle. It may not be directly above, but it's got to be above the ankle much more so than where it is at A4… it might work okay with the driver where hitting up can be good, but beyond that… hoo boy. Gotta do a LOT of work to make that functional with an iron.

8 hours ago, Hugh Jars said:

He got me to take a swing focusing on keeping my right foot planted throughout and releasing the club head, staying stable throughout the swing.

Maybe you were sliding too much. Maybe your right knee was kicking in toward the ball too much. I don't know.

This topic, this whole discussion, isn't about any one person's swing. I've certainly worked with people on turning more. Typically better players who get forward some. But it's not common.

I have a hard time believing, though, that you are "sliding too far forward" here:

01.jpg

Abso-freaking-lutely, you need to be more rotational here… but man there's a lot I'd adjust before I worried about that. Part of the reason you stall out is because you're so over the top, so your body HAS to stall out to have a CHANCE of getting the club to stay even a little less outside-in.

Now, that's your old swing, but you haven't updated your Member Swing topic in awhile, so… it's all I had to go by. Maybe your current swing is very different. Unlikely, but possible.

1 hour ago, Hugh Jars said:

im only doing what a professional PGA instructor told me to do after working with me for a few sessions now.

Not for nothing, and I'm glad you like your instructor, but just because they're PGA doesn't mean much.

And I say that as someone who's a Class A member of the PGA.

1 hour ago, Hugh Jars said:

Personally I’d take the advice of someone who has looked at my swing firsthand, with qualifications and years of experience over people lurking on social media forums...just sayin’

The thing is… except for "has looked at my swing firsthand," I might have higher qualifications than your pro, and even if I don't… I'm not really well described as a [person] "… lurking on social media forums."

@saevel25 and @billchao and others here know quite a bit about the golf swing, too, and they've learned a small portion of that from me, and also a large portion from watching the way the best players do things. The best players, contrary to what you've said (depending on your definition of "marginally") move their hips forward quite a bit during the downswing.

Certainly far more than you were on August 30, 2018.

You don't need to put other people down when they're trying to have a discussion with you… particularly when they're right.

1 hour ago, Hugh Jars said:

Sliding your hips promotes under rotation of the hips on the downswing, keeping them too square to the target and not rotating. The shoulders have to take over. Result - over the top and loss of power.

Nah. Sliding your hips forward gets them "over" the left ankle where they can, during the latter stages of the downswing, rotate hard.

The dominant "thing" the hips do in the early stages of the downswing is translate (slide) forward. The dominant thing the hips do in the latter stages of the downswing is rotate.

1 hour ago, Hugh Jars said:

Releasing the club squares the club at impact.

This topic isn't about "releasing the club" but, in general, I hate that term if it at all means "rolling the hands over" or "rolling the forearms over" or anything like that.

Good players aren't actively doing that. But again, not for this topic. You're welcome to post your thoughts here:

1 hour ago, Hugh Jars said:

I would have thought that this is common sense.

Like other people have said a lot of what used to be considered "common sense" is actually complete bullshit. The list of such bullshit is loooooooooooooooong.

36 minutes ago, jp k said:

Ultimately you’ll realize that weight swivels around like hogan and not back and forth. The sooner you get there the better.

Like Hogan, you say? He of the "bump and turn"?

HoganBarrel.jpg

Oh, actually, that image is from another great topic that's very closely related to this one, @Hugh Jars:

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8 hours ago, iacas said:

All else being equal (which is virtually never the case), rotation will tend to steepen a swing while sliding the hips forward tends to shallow it. Rotation carries the hands outward more, moving the hips forward more tends to let them drop and stay deeper longer (the added axis tilt lowers the right side).

Now, perhaps you were translating the hips too far forward, in which case working on rotation may have been your priority piece.

Maybe.

But the vast majority of golfers need to learn to translate their hips forward more. Yes, most golfers are still too closed at impact, but that rotation is often a much lower priority piece than learning to get their weight forward properly.

You may have a weird definition of "marginally."

#1 OWGR: Dustin Johnson

01.jpg
#2 OWGR: Justin Rose

02.jpg
#3 OWGR: Brooks Koepka

03.jpg

#4 OWGR: Justin Thomas

04.jpg

#5 OWGR: Bryson DeChambeau

05.jpg

And that's just by A5. By A6 their hips have moved another ~50% forward, as they prepare to extend the left knee and really kick up the rotation that they also get.

How else do you think PGA Tour pros get 85-95% of their pressure under their left foot at impact?

Let me put it to you this way… it's a way I've said but maybe not necessarily typed out here on TST, so this will bring a little something new to the topic. You've heard about people "getting to their left side" or "posting up on their left side and then turning around their lead foot?" One of the purposes of the translation of the hips forward (as they rotate, yes, but the rotation really "takes over" later) is to put the center of the pelvis above the left ankle. It may not be directly above, but it's got to be above the ankle much more so than where it is at A4… it might work okay with the driver where hitting up can be good, but beyond that… hoo boy. Gotta do a LOT of work to make that functional with an iron.

Maybe you were sliding too much. Maybe your right knee was kicking in toward the ball too much. I don't know.

This topic, this whole discussion, isn't about any one person's swing. I've certainly worked with people on turning more. Typically better players who get forward some. But it's not common.

I have a hard time believing, though, that you are "sliding too far forward" here:

01.jpg

Abso-freaking-lutely, you need to be more rotational here… but man there's a lot I'd adjust before I worried about that. Part of the reason you stall out is because you're so over the top, so your body HAS to stall out to have a CHANCE of getting the club to stay even a little less outside-in.

Now, that's your old swing, but you haven't updated your Member Swing topic in awhile, so… it's all I had to go by. Maybe your current swing is very different. Unlikely, but possible.

Not for nothing, and I'm glad you like your instructor, but just because they're PGA doesn't mean much.

And I say that as someone who's a Class A member of the PGA.

The thing is… except for "has looked at my swing firsthand," I might have higher qualifications than your pro, and even if I don't… I'm not really well described as a [person] "… lurking on social media forums."

@saevel25 and @billchao and others here know quite a bit about the golf swing, too, and they've learned a small portion of that from me, and also a large portion from watching the way the best players do things. The best players, contrary to what you've said (depending on your definition of "marginally") move their hips forward quite a bit during the downswing.

Certainly far more than you were on August 30, 2018.

You don't need to put other people down when they're trying to have a discussion with you… particularly when they're right.

Nah. Sliding your hips forward gets them "over" the left ankle where they can, during the latter stages of the downswing, rotate hard.

The dominant "thing" the hips do in the early stages of the downswing is translate (slide) forward. The dominant thing the hips do in the latter stages of the downswing is rotate.

This topic isn't about "releasing the club" but, in general, I hate that term if it at all means "rolling the hands over" or "rolling the forearms over" or anything like that.

Good players aren't actively doing that. But again, not for this topic. You're welcome to post your thoughts here:

Like other people have said a lot of what used to be considered "common sense" is actually complete bullshit. The list of such bullshit is loooooooooooooooong.

Like Hogan, you say? He of the "bump and turn"?

HoganBarrel.jpg

Oh, actually, that image is from another great topic that's very closely related to this one, @Hugh Jars:

I never said they didnt get left. I said they get there thru proper rotation which is in the back swing and the downswing. Look at hogans hips. Hes rotated not sliding. An ott’er usually gets too trail side and never gets back. Hogans right butt cheek at the top of his backswing is most certainly already ‘left’ and travels a very long way around with no need to consciously slide.  The left is simply the result. 

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15 minutes ago, jp k said:

I never said they didnt get left.

Oy. You quoted my entire post, most of which was a response to stuff @Hugh Jars posted. So… could you quote the specific part to which you're responding?

15 minutes ago, jp k said:

I said they get there thru proper rotation which is in the back swing and the downswing.

Hips don't get "forward" by "rotating." They go forward by going forward as they rotate.

hips.jpg

15 minutes ago, jp k said:

 Look at hogans hips. Hes rotated not sliding.

Look, we have actual measurements on these things, too. Pros slide their hips forward.

If Hogan was rotating only he would be like the "blue hips" on the left above.

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8 hours ago, iacas said:

Oy. You quoted my entire post, most of which was a response to stuff @Hugh Jars posted. So… could you quote the specific part to which you're responding?

Hips don't get "forward" by "rotating." They go forward by going forward as they rotate.

hips.jpg

Look, we have actual measurements on these things, too. Pros slide their hips forward.

If Hogan was rotating only he would be like the "blue hips" on the left above.

whoosh...

 

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23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not much of a response.

Again we have actual measurements. They’re not just rotating.

I’m here to help the guy with an issue and avoid the same path i went on not play tennis against a wall with you.  

If he understands what I’m saying and has a follow up q then i’ll try to help, i dont care if you get stuck on a misinterpretation. 

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22 minutes ago, jp k said:

If he understands what I’m saying and has a follow up q then i’ll try to help, i dont care if you get stuck on a misinterpretation. 

If you want to talk in terms of the imaginary then be prepared to have people present what actually happens to you.

PGA Tour players slide their hips. They do so significantly more than Amateurs. They also rotate more than Amateurs. To say that they just swivel their hips is false.

It's not a misinterpretation. All the responses have been to exactly what you have posted. If you have some hidden meaning then explain it better.

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Hogan's hips moved laterally towards the target. That's not up for debate, that's fact.

What he felt he was doing in his swing is a completely different discussion. 

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