Clubface Square to the Plane

[SoundandFury]

Just talked about this today. It's true, yes. But most golfers over rotate and swing left. The swing will rotate 90 degrees (club face to plane) roughly so I don't care much when that rotation occurs. I might slightly prefer it to happen a bit later but it doesn't have to. Please don't work on that... See the "advice I hate" thread on that. Better to work on moving your path right. Or look at your grip.

Based on video of my swing, I'm not coming over the top. My downswing is on plane and in to out. The problem is the club face angle at impact. Even on a basic camera I was able to freeze frame just after impact and it pretty clear I hold the club face wide open through impact. If rolling the forearms to square the face isn't the answer? What is? Maybe keeping it square to the path as discussed in this thread?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by SoundandFury

Based on video of my swing, I'm not coming over the top. My downswing is on plane and in to out. The problem is the club face angle at impact. Even on a basic camera I was able to freeze frame just after impact and it pretty clear I hold the club face wide open through impact. If rolling the forearms to square the face isn't the answer? What is? Maybe keeping it square to the path as discussed in this thread?

How about just rotating the club in your hands at address (ie. don't move your hands but shut the clubface)? It might just be that you're addressing the ball with your hands in a weaker position than you do with your irons, or that you're actually just addressing the ball with the clubface open. I've done both at different times leading to driving issues.

EDIT: Also, how much does the shot bend? If you're really hitting a push fade it won't bend all that much.

[SoundandFury]

Good advice. However I took a video of my swing and the problem is somewhat different than just an open club face. My path is in to out, however it's very clear I'm holding off (sorry Erik, for lack of a better word, not "releasing" the club). If I was wearing a watch on my left wrist the face would be pointing to the sky well past impact, and my left arm is chocking winging. Thus, the open face seems to be a symptom (that ultimately causes the right/right miss). I know the release is supposed to happen naturally, but for me it's not. I don't think I'm stalling my pivot. This is getting pretty frustrating because while I can play this somewhat (shot 78, 79 last week), it's killing my consistency and keeping me from regularly being in the low 80s high 70s.

[jamo]

Good advice. However I took a video of my swing and the problem is somewhat different than just an open club face. My path is in to out, however it's very clear I'm holding off (sorry Erik, for lack of a better word, not "releasing" the club). If I was wearing a watch on my left wrist the face would be pointing to the sky well past impact, and my left arm is chocking winging. Thus, the open face seems to be a symptom (that ultimately causes the right/right miss). I know the release is supposed to happen naturally, but for me it's not. I don't think I'm stalling my pivot. This is getting pretty frustrating because while I can play this somewhat (shot 78, 79 last week), it's killing my consistency and keeping me from regularly being in the low 80s high 70s.

Why don't you post your swing in a "My Swing" thread?

[Brakkus]

Loved this thread and the insight from Erik. Funny enough this is something I have been working on. It seems to go with a more neutral grip for me as before my clubface used to roll a lot more through my swing. I actually found that the main enemy in golf is your dominant hand. Putting,chipping,pitching, and full swings are all ruined by a strong right hand influence. With my right hand on full swings it was the tendency for it suck the club back and rotate open the face. Or for it to start bending backwards but laying back too far and twisting the face open in the last part of the swing. Its taken a full six months for me to get the muscle control into my left hand. The results are fantastic its more or less eliminated those awful shots in either direction.

[Birdman10687]

I tried to read most of the thread, and the first page in detail so if this has already been mentioned sorry. It seems a lot of discussion is going on related to the effect the club face orientation relative to the swing plane at various points in the swing has on ball flight.  Starting from impact and working our way back, we agree all the matters is your club face at impact.  The question isn't whether the club face at checkpoint A or B has an effect on ball flight, its whether it has an effect on club face orientation at impact (which would then have an effect on ball flight).  It seems the discussion is centered around the timing aspect of this effect.  That is, rotating your club face away from is eventual perpindicular-to-swing-path position at impact could make your swing harder to execute and therefor less consistent.  Obviously this is open to opinion (perhaps), and might and likely is different for everyone.

However it seems to me another reason that the club fact orientation might (should?) change during the swing has to do with how your wrists behave in keeping your shaft on the swing plane.  I used to have an issue where I would keep my club face (or attempt to keep my club face) perpindicular to the plane the whole way, but it caused me to have all kinds of wrist breakdowns at the top-of-the-swing and transition area.  I honestly just don't see how you can have the right wrist situation at the top of your swing and during your transition without having your thumbs pointing along the swing path (i.e. your right forearm--for a right-hander--should be kind of pointing in the same direction as your face, how can you do that if you keep your club face perpindicular to the swing plane?).

Basically my point is I think rotating the club fact may mean you have to work on timing which may make your swing more difficult, but its done for a reason (to help your wrists at the top-of-swing and transition) such that the benefits outweigh the added timing difficulties.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Starting from impact and working our way back, we agree all the matters is your club face at impact.

Path and clubface are all that matters at impact. Not just clubface. I think we could all agree to that, yes.

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

The question isn't whether the club face at checkpoint A or B has an effect on ball flight, its whether it has an effect on club face orientation at impact (which would then have an effect on ball flight).  It seems the discussion is centered around the timing aspect of this effect.  That is, rotating your club face away from is eventual perpindicular-to-swing-path position at impact could make your swing harder to execute and therefor less consistent.

Both reasonable statements yes.

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Basically my point is I think rotating the club fact may mean you have to work on timing which may make your swing more difficult, but its done for a reason (to help your wrists at the top-of-swing and transition) such that the benefits outweigh the added timing difficulties.

Definitely. It also adds power.

[Birdman10687]

I probably misunderstood your opening post then...it seemed like you were advocating for keeping your club face perpendicular to the swing path?  My post was attempting to say that while that may make timing easier it would hurt you in other ways.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

I probably misunderstood your opening post then...it seemed like you were advocating for keeping your club face perpendicular to the swing path?  My post was attempting to say that while that may make timing easier it would hurt you in other ways.

It only really had to do with the clubface at two very distinct portions of the golf swing - early in the backswing, and early into the follow-through.

In general, too many "TV Golf Instructors" seem to almost demand "toe up" in both of those positions, when that's not truly "square to the plane," despite them telling you the clubface is "square to the plane in those situations.

I personally allow for a fairly wide variety ranging from toe up (to even more "open" than that on the backswing) to about 45° or so, depending on what the golfer does the rest of the swing.

[samgouldengolf]

My name is Sam Goulden. I teach, and play with, a "square to square" method. I have plenty of videos explaining my method on YouTube. My last tournament round was 65 (two weeks ago). I have students all over the world who have adopted the method just by watching videos and reading the ebook. I'm not always available to comment but I will try to get into this conversation as much as possible. Feel free to search "Sam Goulden square to square" on google or YouTube for more info. Hope this can be of some help to you :)

[Ernest Jones]

My name is Sam Goulden. I teach, and play with, a "square to square" method. I have plenty of videos explaining my method on YouTube. My last tournament round was 65 (two weeks ago). I have students all over the world who have adopted the method just by watching videos and reading the ebook. I'm not always available to comment but I will try to get into this conversation as much as possible. Feel free to search "Sam Goulden square to square" on google or YouTube for more info. Hope this can be of some help to you :)

Is this the Sam Goulden with the hilarious YouTube video where you're smacking a globe like it's an ass to demonstrate how to generate draw spin? If so, I'm a fan! Lol. Funny stuff.

[Phil McGleno]

I agree that there is no such thing as square to square-Every golf swing has some amount of rotation. In TGM it's the third accumulator. Your swing does not use the third accumulator at all?-Your clubhead is hanging out over your head perpendicular to the target Line? Or is it just marketing-Because your swing uses the "third accumulator" and does not actually stay square to the plane or Target Line?[quote name="samgouldengolf" url="/t/31893/clubface-square-to-the-plane/54#post_911852"]My name is Sam Goulden. I teach, and play with, a "square to square" method. I have plenty of videos explaining my method on YouTube. My last tournament round was 65 (two weeks ago). I have students all over the world who have adopted the method just by watching videos and reading the ebook. I'm not always available to comment but I will try to get into this conversation as much as possible. Feel free to search "Sam Goulden square to square" on google or YouTube for more info. Hope this can be of some help to you :)[/quote]

[mvmac]

Erik made a great post about what "square" is at the top of the backswing, check it http://thesandtrap.com/t/31893/clubface-square-to-the-plane/36#post_406962

I don't know much about Sam's method but I can see how the name "square to square" can confuse some people.  Here's Sam at the top of the backswing, left arm and club head have defintely rotated.  Also, square at impact can be misleading as well, no player on the PGA tour has a "square" clubface at impact, they all have some pattern and start the ball slightly left or right of their targets.  This isn't a knock against Sam, just don't want other people thinking the club face does not rotate throughout the swing or that the clubface needs to be square at impact.

[samgouldengolf]

At this point in the swing, this is the position I am looking for. No doubt there will be some forearm rotation after this point in a full swing. The amount of forearm rotation doesn't concern me as much as the vertical hinging and opening of the face at the start of the takeaway. Also, I'm not saying this is more correct than anything else. It's just a way I have found to simplify the swing and gain accuracy. I do appreciate the comments and opinions. Thanks for watching and happy golfing :)

[samgouldengolf]

Another example of the face angle I like

[Ernest Jones]

Is this the Sam Goulden with the hilarious YouTube video where you're smacking a globe like it's an ass to demonstrate how to generate draw spin? If so, I'm a fan! Lol. Funny stuff.

Oops. Different dude, sorry @samgouldengolf

[samgouldengolf]

Take a look at this link. I think it will help clarify how everything works in this model.

[saevel25]

Just to point this out. You can see his club face at the top is nearly the same angle as his left hand. This is due to his grip, but it tells me his left forearm has rotated 90 degrees from the initial set up. If it didn't rotate the back of the left hand would be facing the camera. There is a natural rotation in the forearm in the golf swing. So it is not a square to square motion. The club face never stays square to the swing plane. He might FEEL like his clubface stays square, but it doesn't.