Tour Pros: Draw v. Fade

[MJP]

Because I'm not saying you line your feet up at the target! The pros I listed don't line up their feet at the target. If anyone thinks Trevino's feet were pointed at the target they're off their rocker.

I know this. I am saying I would imagine it do be more difficult to aim away from the target taking into account the amount of push and the amount of fade. I guess if these guys are so used to aiming up at the exact degree left of the degree they push fade (in Lee's example) then it is easy for them. Isn't the ideal shot shape to be going for a push draw? or at least a pull fade? For the sake of simplicity? If you were giving a lesson and someone hit one of those ball flights where they have to aim well off the target, would you try and correct it?

[Bryan SD2]

Push = ball starts right of alignment

Trevino is holding a 6 iron, he's 165. Pin is middle on a small green. He intends to hit the ball AT the left edge of the green and fade it about 20 feet back to the pin. He starts it at the left edge of the green (give or take a foot or two) and the ball cuts back to the pin, leaving a 5 foot birdie putt. He was short of the hole, but right at it. The faded exactly the right amount.

What in your mind makes this a "push fade?" If it's the fact that his feet are lined up a further 10 feet left that the left edge of the green... I think we're dealing with semantics. What one might call a "push fade" others might call a fade with a slightly open stance. 90% of the players out there (who can't break 100) hear PUSH and think "started the ball RIGHT of where I wanted it to go" - completely disregarding the position of the feet. Is EVERY greenside bunker explosion shot a MASSIVE "push - straight"? By your Trevino definition it is, no?

[Zeph]

Trevino is holding a 6 iron, he's 165. Pin is middle on a small green. He intends to hit the ball AT the left edge of the green and fade it about 20 feet back to the pin. He starts it at the left edge of the green (give or take a foot or two) and the ball cuts back to the pin, leaving a 5 foot birdie putt. He was short of the hole, but right at it. The faded exactly the right amount.

The fact that the ball starts right of his alignment and curves farther right.

If it's the fact that his feet are lined up a further 10 feet left that the left edge of the green... I think we're dealing with semantics. What one might call a "push fade" others might call a fade with a slightly open stance. 90% of the players out there (who can't break 100) hear PUSH and think "started the ball RIGHT of where I wanted it to go" - completely disregarding the position of the feet.

Not semantics, but how we define the terms. I have no doubt that 90% of the players out there (probably more) don't know the ball flight laws, so that would come as no surprise.

Is EVERY greenside bunker explosion shot a MASSIVE "push - straight"? By your Trevino definition it is, no?

I hit my bunker shots with a square clubface, so no, I don't. The reason people open the clubface is to add more bounce. But yes, if the clubface is open relative to your stance, you are hitting a push, by the definition of the ball flight laws. I don't see the problem with that. The ball flies pretty much straight forward because of the short ball flight and the fact that we got sand between the clubface and the ball. The ball will fly somewhat straight, but when it lands, it will still be spinning sideways. A push would mean the clubface was open and swingpath going in-out at the same angle. That is not the idea behind a bunker shot. Players open the clubface to add bounce, then swing along their alignment. If you opened the clubface 10º and swung 10º in-out, you would not add bounce and the ball would have no sidespin.

Using your analogy, one player could hit the ball with a closed clubface and one could hit it with an open clubface, and you would call both a push because the ball started to the right of the flag. The reason we define pull and push the way we do is to help explain how the ball flies relative to your alignment. Which in turn can tell us about the swingpath and clubface angle at impact. Like I said, if the ball starting right of the target is a push, then one starting left is a pull. How can you say that Lee hit a pull-fade?

[jamo]

Is EVERY greenside bunker explosion shot a MASSIVE "push - straight"? By your Trevino definition it is, no?

When you open the face that much, the loft is basically straight up and thus side to side deflections aren't really that noticeable.

Not to mention that your clubface barely makes contact with the ball out of the bunker. Because it's mostly the sand, swing path (and thusly sand path) has much more of an effect on an explosion sand shot.

[sean_miller]

Is EVERY greenside bunker explosion shot a MASSIVE "push - straight"? By your Trevino definition it is, no?

I'd like to see a bunker or flop shot in super slow motion. A clubface and swing path can be at a 90 degree angle (approximately) and the ball travel straight. It seems like a 45 degree angle relative to both the clubface and the swing path at setup, but I suspect the clubface isn't quite as open at the moment of impact.

[Bryan SD2]

The fact that the ball starts right of his alignment and curves farther right.

I've been as low as a 4... and while certainly not Trevino by any stretch, I fade everything and joke that I have not seen the left side of a golf course since I was 12. You are saying the ball starts RIGHT of the target because he FEET are lined up farther left than his clubface, no? The clubface is aimed EXACTLY at the left edge of the green, withing any small degree that naturally occurs. The ball starts there, and cuts right. Your clubface open, closed, square on the bunker shot is inconsequential. Where are your feet? Open stance right? So you push them ALL.... unless you yank it farther left than your feet are aligned, right? Then you've pulled it somehow. The loft and clubface alignment become negligible on explosions of course. You touched on it... it's all about swing path and "sand path" that propel the ball. Your inclusion of Trevino's feet in the equation to call a perfectly executed 10 yard cut as a "push fade" because his feet are aligned farther left than the clubface AND the intended beginning line prompted me to predict, in your mind, an open stance explosion MUST be a push by default. I think you have misunderstood my posts... with regards to your answer about push's being defined by starting right of the flag. If you aim way right, to try to hit the safe side of the green, but put it two feet from the pin (left of your targer) you've pulled it LEFT from where you wanted it to be, even though you started and ended up right of the flag. Bottom line I believe feet placement (open or closed to target line and/or target) do NOT define a shot as a push or a pull.... but rather the ball's initial flight being left or right of your target (not the pin, your preferred line to START the ball on).' Cheers....

When you open the face that much, the loft is basically straight up and thus side to side deflections aren't really that noticeable.

It's no longer about loft if one identifies Trevino's shot with a clubface aiming exactly where the ball begins... and it's called a PUSH FADE because his feet are aiming farther left than the clubface and initial ball flight before the fade back to the right.

Open stances in bunkers, or any open stance to encourage outside to in path or increase loft (flop shots) then by definition (if I'm understanding him correctly) pushes.

[zeg]

Bottom line I believe feet placement (open or closed to target line and/or target) do NOT define a shot as a push or a pull.... but rather the ball's initial flight being left or right of your target (not the pin, your preferred line to START the ball on).

That's up to you, but your definition is not at all useful when discussing swing mechanics. The definition that others are using here, on the other hand, is, since it directly connects ball flight with a concrete physical reference.

[Zeph]

I've been as low as a 4... and while certainly not Trevino by any stretch, I fade everything and joke that I have not seen the left side of a golf course since I was 12. You are saying the ball starts RIGHT of the target because he FEET are lined up farther left than his clubface, no? The clubface is aimed EXACTLY at the left edge of the green, withing any small degree that naturally occurs. The ball starts there, and cuts right.

I've never said the ball starts right of the target. I've never used the target as a reference point at all.

Your clubface open, closed, square on the bunker shot is inconsequential. Where are your feet? Open stance right?

No, my feet are square also.

Your inclusion of Trevino's feet in the equation to call a perfectly executed 10 yard cut as a "push fade" because his feet are aligned farther left than the clubface AND the intended beginning line prompted me to predict, in your mind, an open stance explosion MUST be a push by default.

If you open the clubface, yes. Don't use feet by the way, it can be misleading. The feet is most of the time somewhat square to the rest of the body, but not always. Alignment is the entire body, but I would say shoulders more-so than hips and feet. In the end, it's the shoulders and arms that dictate the swing path. Of course influenced by hips and feet.

I think you have misunderstood my posts... with regards to your answer about push's being defined by starting right of the flag. If you aim way right, to try to hit the safe side of the green, but put it two feet from the pin (left of your targer) you've pulled it LEFT from where you wanted it to be, even though you started and ended up right of the flag.

So is the push/pull by your definition where the ball lands, not where it starts? I say the exact opposite. But I don't care about the target, I compare the initial direction of the ball relative to the alignment.

Bottom line I believe feet placement (open or closed to target line and/or target) do NOT define a shot as a push or a pull.... but rather the ball's initial flight being left or right of your target (not the pin, your preferred line to START the ball on).'

I've never said alignment relative to the target defines the push/pull, I've said the initial direction of the ball flight relative to your alignment does.

Forget the target, the target doesn't matter. The target is stationary, it doesn't move, it's in the same place all the time. Your body moves, your body aim different on every shot. That is a variable we are interested in, not where the ball landed, which can be a result of lots of things. The reason we define things like we do is to get knowledge. Knowledge of why the ball flew the way it did. A ball going too far left can be a result of clubface being too closed, or swingpath being too far in-out. If we call every ball ending left as a pull, how can we tell what to work on? By defining where the ball starts relative to our stance, and which way (if any) it curves, we can predict the ball flight before taking the shot. Since we define the ball flight relative to the body alignment, we can aim left, square or right before hitting the ball. Quick example: You hit balls with a large cardboard wall 2 yards left of where you stand. Your body is aligned perpendicular 90º to this wall and you have drawn a line down your target line (parallel to your alignment, where the ball sits) and up the wall. If the ball hits the line dead on, the ball started straight. If the ball hits the line on the left side, it is a pull. If the ball hits the ball on the right side, it is a push. The ball flight laws also say that the swingpath dictate some 15% of the initial direction of the ball flight, so with a swingpath going a lot in-out or out-in, it can cause the ball to miss the line with a square clubface.

[Bryan SD2]

Yes to the hips-shoulder-feet alignment... just trying to keep it simple, which we have gone well past I think.


So then again.....

My Clubface is aiimed directly at the left edge of the green with laser accuracy. I want the ball to fly right towards the left edge immediately after it leaves the clubface. The Clubface is ALSO aligned DIRECTLY at the left edge of the green.

Feet, shoulders, hips are LEFT of the edge of the green slightly at address and during the swing. The ball starts EXACTLY where the clubface is/was aimed, but the open (slightly left of the left edge of the green) body position promoted outside to in swing path (as is my natural tendency as well), and definite fade spin. You have NO IDEA where the ball ends up because that has never been important in defining pull/push fade/draw..... but you do know the ball finishes to the RIGHT of the left edge of the green (where the clubface was aimed and where he wanted the ball to start). In fact, the ball is still IN THE AIR but moving right of the edge of the green

Is it already a PUSH - FADE or not? and why?

[Zeph]

It is a push-fade because the ball started right of your alignment (open clubface) and it curved farther right. I've already explained why in lengths, so I won't do it again. Read the Definitive Ball Flight Laws thread in here, Ball Flight Laws article on TST and watch Ball Flight Laws videos on Youtube if you still don't get it.

[Bryan SD2]

It is a push-fade because the ball started right of your alignment (open clubface) and it curved farther right. I've already explained why in lengths, so I won't do it again. Read the Definitive Ball Flight Laws thread in here, Ball Flight Laws article on TST and watch Ball Flight Laws videos on Youtube if you still don't get it.

Where are you getting OPEN clubface? It was directly in line with the intended line (laser like accuracy :) ) flight path. It is not open at impact either.

So then.... a open stance flop shot (or bunker shot) is by definition a push due to the feet-hips-shoulders and swing path being left of the target. From there, you could hook or fade the shot, or hit it straight. Push fade Push straight Push draw being the only choices when a ball starts RIGHT of the alignment created by the body. Take a 100's shooter on the range, and he hits a push fade or a push SLICE... no way I'm telling him he pushed it. I know he started the ball right of his body alignment, and watched it go further right after that... but in a hackers mind, a PUSH starts right. Pushed a putt, pushed a driver into the right rough. That's what this is about. Playing 4 years of HS golf (12th in the city - 25 teams one year) and one year of Division I golf (as a walk on admittedly) may be MILES below your experience, but it does mean I understand ball flight and the physics of alignment, swing path, clubfaces, and their relation to ball flight. No way a good player can hit EVERY bunker shot with square alignment and a square, digging, clubface. Even with NO green to work with and water long? Cheers, good discussion Bryan

[sean_miller]

ssssssssssssssssssssssssssss . . . pop

That was the last bit of fun being sucked out of golf.

[MJP]

This is why the majority of golfers suck. They are practicing the wrong things while insisting they are right despite mounds of proof against them.

[jamo]

It's no longer about loft if one identifies Trevino's shot with a clubface aiming exactly where the ball begins... and it's called a PUSH FADE because his feet are aiming farther left than the clubface and initial ball flight before the fade back to the right.

First off, the bunker example should just be stopped. It has little to nothing in common with a normal shot because the club-ground-ball interaction is totally different,

Next, opening the stance does one thing: promote an out-to-in path. That doesn't increase or promote a push. If you keep the club aligned at the target and solely open your feet (then swing along the path of your feet), you will be hitting a straight (as in towards the target) fade. If you close the face so that it is in line with your feet but not the target, you will hit a pull, which will start along you footpath and continue on that line, leaving it left of the target (for a righty).

[Bryan SD2]

Fair point re: explosions Jamo. Your fade example is being called a push fade and I'm being told I am wrong for not agreeing.

If not an explosion... Move to a 40 yard pitch you have to hit pretty high due to trouble. Stance slightly open to line to the pin, clubface however you want it, probably pretty square to the pin You knock it to 2 feet. Push they say... I say you can't teach people using that terminology is all.

[iacas]

I am saying I would imagine it do be more difficult to aim away from the target taking into account the amount of push and the amount of fade. I guess if these guys are so used to aiming up at the exact degree left of the degree they push fade (in Lee's example) then it is easy for them.

It's no more difficult than aiming straight at something and trying to get the ball to curve to the target. It's all the same and it's all about habit.

My stance tends to get a little closed so I like to err on the side of being a tad open. Since I play a push-draw, worst case, I get a bit less draw and the ball doesn't leave my cone.

Isn't the ideal shot shape to be going for a push draw? or at least a pull fade? For the sake of simplicity? If you were giving a lesson and someone hit one of those ball flights where they have to aim well off the target, would you try and correct it?

A push fade is just a push-draw where the person's stance is oriented well to the left. For example:

Stance square, clubface 5 degrees open, path 10 degrees in to out (I'm exaggerating these numbers just to make them even multiples of 5 for simplicity). Ball flight is push draw. Stance 15 degrees to the left, clubface 5 degrees to the left, path 10 degrees to the left (so in to out 5 degrees relative to the stance, but out to in relative to the clubface). Ball flight is a push-fade. Both shots are 5 degrees different between the clubface and the ball. If a student can get to either position, good for him. We don't change people's ball flights unless there's a reason to. If someone came and was consistently hitting push-fades, more power to him - we'd see what he wanted to improve upon and give him the appropriate pieces. The ideal shot from a perfectly square setup would be a push-draw simply because you'd be hitting the ball while the clubhead is still moving down, out, and forward. In a perfect world, that'd be the stock shot. But we're not all perfect, so we work with what a player likes. You wouldn't change Lee Trevino into a push-drawer.

If not an explosion... Move to a 40 yard pitch you have to hit pretty high due to trouble. Stance slightly open to line to the pin, clubface however you want it, probably pretty square to the pin You knock it to 2 feet. Push they say... I say you can't teach people using that terminology is all.

You're missing the point. Proper terminology has its place and purpose.

[MJP]

It's no more difficult than aiming straight at something and trying to get the ball to curve to the target. It's all the same and it's all about habit.

Does a club head moving downward, outward and forward typically have a faster club head speed? Just curious as to why it's the most efficient way to swing or the ideal way or whatever.

My guess is that it has the least compensations/moving parts? I hit a pull-fade when it comes down to a "stock" shot. or a shot that I might hit under pressure. I don't like that shot because I am flipping somewhat to get into that position of pulling the ball and sometimes thins leak in or shots with no divot. If I close the club head say, 20 degrees by taking a weak left and very strong right hand grip, it actually forces me to get more forward shaft lean and hit a push because if I don't lead with the butt of the club and swing in to out (with that stronger right hand grip) I would shank the ball (20 degrees closed and out to in = shank, forward shaft lean and strong right hand grip opens the club back open). I've been experimenting with this lately so I can actually have a flat left wrist at the top. Because with a cupped left wrist, there's no way I can swing in to out.

[zeg]

Does a club head moving downward, outward and forward typically have a faster club head speed? Just curious as to why it's the most efficient way to swing or the ideal way or whatever.

It is the straightest path between the top of the backswing and hitting the ball, and I'd guess entails the least wasted motion.