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Tour Pros: Draw v. Fade

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Does a club head moving downward, outward and forward typically have a faster club head speed?

Than what? It's a non-sequitur type question. I'm not sure it's relevant.

Just curious as to why it's the most efficient way to swing or the ideal way or whatever.

I didn't use the word efficient to describe a push draw. The most efficient impact you can have at any speed and club loft and so on is one in which the face is square to the path. The lower the loft, the more efficient the contact. (Efficient being amount of energy transferred to the ball, of course.)

I simply said that from a square setup, if your plane line was square to the target line, for a ball sitting on the ground the club - in order to hit the ball before the ground - hits the ball before low point, and the clubhead is still moving DOWN, OUT, and FORWARD at that point in time. I would argue that the absolute most efficient shot is one in which the plane line is shifted slightly to the left to compensate for the fact that the clubhead is moving DOWN, OUT, and FORWARD at the time of impact - so that the plane line shifted left versus the impact tangent that's pointing slightly to the right cancel each other out and you get a clubface square to the path at impact. That'd be the most efficient swing - albeit one that may not necessarily "work" or "feel good" to golfers (i.e. trying to hit the ball dead straight).
My guess is that it has the least compensations/moving parts?

You're reading way, way too much into it. I'm just talking about geometry, not the millions of things someone might do in a swing to arrive at a certain impact position.

I hit a pull-fade when it comes down to a "stock" shot. or a shot that I might hit under pressure. I don't like that shot because I am flipping somewhat to get into that position of pulling the ball and sometimes thins leak in or shots with no divot.

Okay. More flying wedge, probably more weight forward (via your hips).

If I close the club head say, 20 degrees by taking a weak left and very strong right hand grip, it actually forces me to get more forward shaft lean and hit a push because if I don't lead with the butt of the club and swing in to out (with that stronger right hand grip) I would shank the ball (20 degrees closed and out to in = shank, forward shaft lean and strong right hand grip opens the club back open). I've been experimenting with this lately so I can actually have a flat left wrist at the top. Because with a cupped left wrist, there's no way I can swing in to out.

Those things are particular to your swing (a strong right hand grip is more under the grip, you know - turned the same direction as a strong left hand grip, to the right). I will say this:

- 20 degrees closed + out to in = shank for you. It doesn't guarantee a shank in any way, shape, or form. - You can easily have a cupped left wrist at the top and swing in to out. YOU might not be able to because of other things... I don't know. It's going to be much easier for you to have a realization and understanding of your swing when you get your camera. My guess is there are a few other reasons why you aren't able to hit the ball from the inside quite as much as would be ideal, regardless of your wrist at the top.

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I'm going to go with "the Hawk" Ben Hogan here who traded in his Draw for a Fade in the middle of his career and had the best quote on the subject

"You can talk to a Fade but a Hook wont listen"

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Reading through the thread...


Lefties saying that most courses set up for a fade for them...ehhh...or righties saying a course sets up one way for them...ehh

If you're consistently playing a course that doesn't force you to work the ball both ways, play a new course. Who wants to hit the same shot shape for a whole round? That's boring. Then, what do you do when you play someone else and have to carve it the opposite way?

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Are there any pros, or people here for that matter, that draw the driver (using MWT or not) and play a fade for the irons. Would this swing be repeatable and easy to produce on command?

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Well for a start. Swinging on plane means you will hit a slight draw. To hit a fade you have to cut across the ball and to hit a draw you have to hit through the ball. Now tell me, which of these is a really athlete going to be hitting? I have never met a true athlete that hits a fade/cut.

I am a young golf fenatic that wants to play golf for a living one day. I recently went out with a friend of mine from south africa that got his pga tour card for the 2010 season and after playing 9 holes and hitting most of my approach shots closer than his he said to me that if I want to make it to the pga tour I have to get rid of my draw and only play a fade. Well I can tell you that you must be able to play both a draw or a fade. But I have been struggling with the fade, yes I made 6+ birdies in a round but my misses were incredibly disgusting to say the least. So 3 days ago I retrurned to my natural draw and shot a easy 66 on a tough links course I have never played and was quite chuffed. I now play the fade only if I have to and it really is  neccessary to be able to play both ball flights as well as playing a high/low trajectory. What I have learned from watching people like Tim Clark who comes from my home town. The best in the world play to their strenght not their weeknesses. Yes by all means learn to shape it both ways but do not play the shot in my case a fade unless you can't get it close hitting your natural shape. I mean your never going to run a fade up but a draw naturally comes out with top spin and you will never be able to stop a 3 iron out of the rough if the pin is cut on the front of the green and there is water short.  But let us be realistic if it a pin is cut on the front edge near the water do you really want to play a low precentage shot. In my case as a honest +1 that regularly breaks par every I play. I am going to hit my high draw to the back edge of the green making sure I make it over the water. Just take my medicine and take my two putt par. Another thing if I have a 3 iron in hand the hole is definately not one that you should be playing with a attacking mind set.

More than 60% of PGA tour players play a Draw for the record. Tigers go to shot may be a fade but his natural shot is a draw. I am 100% sure that Tim clark plays a draw and he is one of the best Iron players in the world if not the best. Retief Goosen plays a draw as well as Ernie Els who has more international victorys than anyone else. I am sure Rory Mclroy lead the masters for 54 holes with his draw and charl won it with his draw. Louie won the Biritish Open with a draw.

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Quote:
To hit a fade you have to cut across the ball and to hit a draw you have to hit through the ball. Now tell me, which of these is a really athlete going to be hitting? I have never met a true athlete that hits a fade/cut.

There is such so much wrong with this statement... Does Martin Kaymer not look like a athlet to you? Tiger Woods? Ben Hogan? They all have/had very athletic abilities.

Cutting across the ball to play a "fade"/slice is the hackers way to do it - show me where Kaymer is cutting across it - you will find no evidence of it.

Quote:
. I mean your never going to run a fade up but a draw naturally comes out with top spin

Top Spin??? Then your ball would probably land in the next ditch 100y out, if at all.

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Originally Posted by 01Golfer

I mean your never going to run a fade up but a draw naturally comes out with top spin and you will never be able to stop a 3 iron out of the rough if the pin is cut on the front of the green and there is water short.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01Golfer

Well for a start. Swinging on plane means you will hit a slight draw. To hit a fade you have to cut across the ball and to hit a draw you have to hit through the ball. Now tell me, which of these is a really athlete going to be hitting? I have never met a true athlete that hits a fade/cut.

I had a huge response to both of these, but in the multi-quoting process I deleted it. Suffice to say, neither of these statements are true. You cut across the ball when you hit a draw as well, that's what gives it draw spin. You are correct in saying that if you hit down on the ball and swing in plane it will draw, but if you swing left (maybe that's what you meant by "cut across the ball'?) a little but you can hit a fade with the same amount of angle of attack and the same amount of cutting across the ball. Keeping the face angle the same (at the target) and the swing speed the same, those balls will both be given the same amount of energy and will fly just about the same, albeit curving in different directions. Therefore neither will have topspin, in fact they will have the same launch angle and spin rate.

I do agree that a stock draw is better (why swing left if you don't have to?), but not for the reasons you say. I don't think it has anything to do with athleticism.

My D-Plane knowledge does have limitations though, so some of that could be less than perfect. But I'm decently confident it's not.

EDIT: I was going to write this up and just delete it, but what the hell, I'll see what people have to say about it.

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A small clubface angle change is all you need to shape the natural draw into a fade.

The reason a natural draw is good is because you will get it from hitting down and out on the ball. You can of course play with an open clubface and hit a fade if you like.

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Originally Posted by iacas

It's just as easy - perhaps easier - to control than a fade if you understand how to create a draw. A pull-draw caused by "releasing the club" is tough to control, you bet. But a push draw? It's as easy to control as the push-fades played by Hogan and Trevino.


Just getting into this thread.  Can you explain the "releasing the club" statement a little?  I think you are saying hitting a push draw is easy to control as you don't really release the club at all, you basically keep the face in the same angle, just swingt in to out by varying degrees to control the draw that way?

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Originally Posted by SpacklersEdge

Just getting into this thread.  Can you explain the "releasing the club" statement a little?  I think you are saying hitting a push draw is easy to control as you don't really release the club at all, you basically keep the face in the same angle, just swingt in to out by varying degrees to control the draw that way?


Basically, yes. If "releasing" means rolling the forearms like people tend to take it, then that's tougher to time than not rolling the arms much and just continuing down-plane to hit down and out.

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My best golf was played in the years 2005-2007 when I was thinking about working every shot, including pitches and chips.  Not a lot, just a little draw action when I wanted some roll out, and a little cut action when I wanted some stopping power.  My stock shot was a little push draw and I was able to hit a nice cut when I wanted.  I didn't get to play much in 2008 and since then I have been unable to replicate that push draw.  For the most part I hit the ball straight with a ever so slight cut or draw, but I'm not even close to being as consistent with my distances as I was back then.  I'm about a 10 handicap right now but my putting has improved exponentially.  When I was at my ball-striking peak I would literally NEVER make a putt outside of 2 feet and still kept my handicap around 8.  I SOOOO wish I could take my putting skill now and combine it with my BS skill from the past...

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i don't understand this thread really.

good golfers whether pro or not will have a swing that usually produces a fairly straight shot that most of the time bends or falls to a varying degree one way or another.  that is their 'shot' but good players can setup and/or make swing adjustments to either hit it straighter or bend it the other way if needed.  Usually though it's better to play the shot that feels natural and 'stock'.  If you fade the ball then you can setup where a straight shot doesn't hurt you and swing away.  If you over fade it then you are just right of the target, you hit it straight then you are just left and everything in between. If you've grooved that swing then very rarely will you miss left of your target as the more your body swings left the more the ball will curve right etc...  the same goes for a draw but the fundamentals of the release are a little different but the theory is the same.

moral of the story: some players like to see the ball favor a certain direction naturally and work to dial in that swing  It's not that they are trying to hit a 20 yard cut it's that they work on a swing that is a non-draw swing or vice versa for guys who draw it.  They set up fairly square with their clubface and body but their 'miss' is straight shot etc..  That is unless they are trying to bend it a certain amount and in that case it's a different story.  If they need to hit a 20 yard fade to get the ball to run out in direction of the hole/fairway etc... then if they are hitting a 10 yard fade they'll open the clubface a little more and/or hold on a little more through impact.  that's about it.

it's not rocket science here folks.   a fade requires less hand action and lands softer so if you are playing firm golf courses then it's a more accurate shot due to roll out and having less hand/arm action to many is preferable over more etc..

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Originally Posted by B of H

it's not rocket science here folks. a fade requires less hand action and lands softer so if you are playing firm golf courses then it's a more accurate shot due to roll out and having less hand/arm action to many is preferable over more etc..


That's not really true at all.

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Originally Posted by iacas

That's not really true at all.



yeah I was incorporating a wide variety of swings in there not just pros, what I meant was a lot of guys would rather error on the side of holding on and clearing rather than over using the hands (as most single digit amateurs would).  granted a full release is going to happen in most good golf swings regardless but I think the point is that some players prefer to know they aren't going to miss left when they really go after one under pressure.

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Originally Posted by B of H

yeah I was incorporating a wide variety of swings in there not just pros, what I meant was a lot of guys would rather error on the side of holding on and clearing rather than over using the hands (as most single digit amateurs would).  granted a full release is going to happen in most good golf swings regardless but I think the point is that some players prefer to know they aren't going to miss left when they really go after one under pressure.


I don't think you and I would agree on a few things. I can hit really big push-draws with no "hand action." I in fact believe that a "full release" (if you mean rolling the hands over each other) is a great way for a lot of people to hit a cut or a slice...

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Originally Posted by iacas

I don't think you and I would agree on a few things. I can hit really big push-draws with no "hand action." I in fact believe that a "full release" (if you mean rolling the hands over each other) is a great way for a lot of people to hit a cut or a slice...



Every tour pro I have spent time with and every instructor I know that has worked with tour players explains why the fade is a more popular shot shape than the draw in the same way more or less that I did in my previous post.   in most full shots you'll release the club unless you are trying to do something really odd like a sawed off low slice around a tree.  The whole idea that you are incorporating your own shtick in here makes me wonder if you read my post carefully enough in the first place.  There is no rolling of the hands in a modern golf swing, some might feel like they do that but really there is just a wrist cock, uncock, wrist cock.  imo the forearms cross over due to the bending of the elbows in sequence with the lower body and torso but the only active hand action ideally is just the wrist cock or 'hinge' no matter what the shot (outside of extreme shots).    Most good amateur players i've seen that hit a draw/hook tend to actively roll over their hands a bit hence that part of the equation here.  Then again they also don't have the type of lower body move that really produces the type of lag and load on the shaft that many tour players do either.   Luke donald is the only tour player that I can think of that has a somewhat technically sound swing and uses some flipping hand action through impact.  (I really haven't paid attention to that many players recently though...tommy two gloves might have a ton of hand action but I wouldn't know)

no offense but I also think all this nonsense about 'push-draw' etc... is a bunch of hacker gibbrish.  It sounds like some of you are thinking way too hard about this.  The tour players that i've known have been normal guys playing the same game in much the same way I do although they are more consistent...that is it.  They have days when the ball is going almost dead straight, days when they are pulling it, days when the play a little more fade than others etc...   they are human beings.  :)   Just like everyone though they have a predominant shot that they play for when they set up at what they consider 'square' to their target.  It might not go dead straight but it's their normal shot and they make very few if any adjustments for it.

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Originally Posted by B of H

Every tour pro I have spent time with and every instructor I know that has worked with tour players explains why the fade is a more popular shot shape than the draw in the same way more or less that I did in my previous post.   in most full shots you'll release the club unless you are trying to do something really odd like a sawed off low slice around a tree.  The whole idea that you are incorporating your own shtick in here makes me wonder if you read my post carefully enough in the first place.  There is no rolling of the hands in a modern golf swing, some might feel like they do that but really there is just a wrist cock, uncock, wrist cock.  imo the forearms cross over due to the bending of the elbows in sequence with the lower body and torso but the only active hand action ideally is just the wrist cock or 'hinge' no matter what the shot (outside of extreme shots).



Can you explain why these aren't contradictory?

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I'll skip the part that's seemingly contradictory and get to a few other parts. Helping someone transition some servers tonight, so apologies if this reply is short.

Originally Posted by B of H

The whole idea that you are incorporating your own shtick in here makes me wonder if you read my post carefully enough in the first place.

I read it well enough. I'm asking some questions and making a guess that you and I will likely disagree on some things. That guess seems to be accurate so far.


Originally Posted by B of H

There is no rolling of the hands in a modern golf swing, some might feel like they do that but really there is just a wrist cock, uncock, wrist cock.

Please define "release" in the way you've been using it. There are at least two acceptable definitions, and you may have a third.


Originally Posted by B of H

Most good amateur players i've seen that hit a draw/hook tend to actively roll over their hands a bit hence that part of the equation here.

I teach people to hit draws without actively "rolling over their hands." Good luck timing that one - I don't teach it for that reason and because it tends to send the path of the club LEFT.


Originally Posted by B of H

no offense but I also think all this nonsense about 'push-draw' etc... is a bunch of hacker gibbrish.

I'm a pretty good instructor, you know. And I work with a lot of other pretty darn good instructors...

Let me ask you this: what is the biggest determinant of the ball's initial starting direction? FWIW, I think you'll get the answer correct.

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