The Haney Project: Rush Limbaugh

[Chief Broom]

I have to say this season of "The Project" has so far left me with the most favorable impression I've had of Haney as a coach.  I wish they'd focus more on the teaching aspect rather than the "human" aspect, but Haney is coming across as a better teacher, at least to me.  Maybe this series has in fact been doing a disservice to Haney insofar as the last 2 seasons made his methodology look suspect.  Personally I believe it is far harder to teach someone with no natural aptitude for the game (or ingrained bad habits) than someone who is a natural.

[bkoguy07]

Originally Posted by Chief Broom

I have to say this season of "The Project" has so far left me with the most favorable impression I've had of Haney as a coach.  I wish they'd focus more on the teaching aspect rather than the "human" aspect, but Haney is coming across as a better teacher, at least to me.  Maybe this series has in fact been doing a disservice to Haney insofar as the last 2 seasons made his methodology look suspect.  Personally I believe it is far harder to teach someone with no natural aptitude for the game  (or ingrained bad habits) than someone who is a natural.

Exactly, seems like this season he's been a lot better of a teacher.  I mean rush is definitely improving..

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

If we ever associated "talent" with the number of Grammys won, we are really going off the deep end.  Off topic, anyway.

Suppose Tiger Woods had ditched Butch Harmon in early 2000 and hired, I don't know, my dog as his swing coach. Suppose he did the same exact things in 2000-2001. Would my dog be the greatest instructor of all time simply because "his player" won everything in sight?

Talent as an instructor is not "measurable" by "Tiger has won a lot of majors...". I'm not saying Haney is talentless, just that "talent" can't be measured that way. SAM made a valid point.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Haney knows far more about the golf swing than 99.99% of the posters here. And, more importantly, he knows how to teach it so that people improve, so long as they are not head cases like Romano or Barkley.  Rush would appear to be a good example of someone who has done the work necessary to get better, and it has certainly shown on the show that he is much better now.

A few points. First, you don't know what Haney knows or doesn't know about the golf swing, and you don't know what Zeph knows or doesn't know about the golf swing. So general statements about 99.99% - while likely true - really have no place here when you're talking about one or two people specifically.

Barkley may have been a head case, but I still think he could have improved right-handed, and Haney failed.

Roman was an incredibly average student. You want to write him off as a "head case," but he's a guy that loves golf and nothing else. He was incredibly average - we see (and improve) students like that all the time. Nothing about Ray screamed "head case" - everything said "yep, pretty typical guy" (except for the fame and fortune, of course).

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Question for Zeph, since he hates on Haney:  If left-to-right (slice) spin is not caused by an open clubface at impact, what is it caused by?

Seriously? Here's another way of saying the same thing, and it's the way that's "more correct": slice spin is caused by a path that's too far to the left.

The point Zeph is making is that too often instructors will say "an open clubface" without specifying "to what"? Open to what? Rarely is it open to the TARGET. So you get amateurs who hear "open clubface" and try to "close it" and then they start pulling the ball.

Originally Posted by bkoguy07

Exactly, seems like this season he's been a lot better of a teacher.  I mean rush is definitely improving..

Food for thought: how much of that is due to the "instruction" he's getting, and how much of it is due simply to the fact that he's practicing. Rush said in episode #1 that he never hits balls. Now he's making 100, 200, 300 swings per day... We've all seen the guy who can play bogey golf (which he's doing - it's not like he's shooting 78) with a jacked up swing simply because he's out there every day and it's semi-"repeatable."

I'm not saying his improvement is 100% due to simply practicing, but it sure as heck ain't 0%... Anyway, just food for thought. Hank has given him some good instruction, and in other areas (particularly, say, "why do I hit it fat so often?") it's been sorely missing. Speaking of which, Rush, I don't need a million dollars. Fly up here, give me $10k, and we'll fix your fat shots in an hour or two, tops.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Zeph

This means that you can hit a slice with a clubface square or shut to the target. The clubface must of course always be open to the swingpath to create that type of sidespin, but an "open clubface" is most commonly described as one that aims to the right of the target at impact.

Which is exactly what Haney said in your quote of him.  Don't confuse target line with swingpath line.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by iacas

Talent as an instructor is not "measurable" by "Tiger has won a lot of majors...". I'm not saying Haney is talentless, just that "talent" can't be measured that way. SAM made a valid point.

A few points. First, you don't know what Haney knows or doesn't know about the golf swing, and you don't know what Zeph knows or doesn't know about the golf swing. So general statements about 99.99% - while likely true - really have no place here when you're talking about one or two people specifically.

Barkley may have been a head case, but I still think he could have improved right-handed, and Haney failed.

Roman was an incredibly average student. You want to write him off as a "head case," but he's a guy that loves golf and nothing else. He was incredibly average - we see (and improve) students like that all the time. Nothing about Ray screamed "head case" - everything said "yep, pretty typical guy" (except for the fame and fortune, of course).

Seriously? Here's another way of saying the same thing, and it's the way that's "more correct": slice spin is caused by a path that's too far to the left.

The point Zeph is making is that too often instructors will say "an open clubface" without specifying "to what"? Open to what? Rarely is it open to the TARGET. So you get amateurs who hear "open clubface" and try to "close it" and then they start pulling the ball.

Food for thought: how much of that is due to the "instruction" he's getting, and how much of it is due simply to the fact that he's practicing. Rush said in episode #1 that he never hits balls. Now he's making 100, 200, 300 swings per day... We've all seen the guy who can play bogey golf (which he's doing - it's not like he's shooting 78) with a jacked up swing simply because he's out there every day and it's semi-"repeatable."

1) My comment about talent was referring to Diane Warren vs. Beyonce.  Had nothing to do with golf instruction.

2)  You say that general statements have no place here, but you can make general statements about what other instructors say and what other amateurs hear? Doesn't seem fair.

3)  It's clear that Rush is excited, or should I say, "orgasmic" about his golf game now.  That excitement has come from his time with Haney, for he made a point of saying how he was ready to give up the game prior to that.  If he was not seeing that improvement, would he be taking those 100-200 swings per day?  I doubt it.  My contention is that whatever Haney was telling Rush was causing him to get better.  And isn't that what good instruction is all about?

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Which is exactly what Haney said in your quote of him.  Don't confuse target line with swingpath line.

No he doesn't, Haney says "open", not in reference to anything. Which to most people and in most situations means open to the target line. Go out and ask random people at a range to take their address position with an open clubface. I wonder how many will do it with the clubface pointing to the left.

He also demonstrate a swing with a severely open clubface to the target line. http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/hank-haney-curing-slice-14713/

He does say at the very end that you should try swinging to the right, which is the better advice. Before that though, he's talking about taking a stronger grip and "releasing" (rotating) your hands through impact.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Zeph

No he doesn't, Haney says "open", not in reference to anything. Which to most people and in most situations means open to the target line. Go out and ask random people at a range to take their address position with an open clubface. I wonder how many will do it with the clubface pointing to the left.

He also demonstrate a swing with a severely open clubface to the target line. http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/hank-haney-curing-slice-14713/

He does say at the very end that you should try swinging to the right, which is the better advice. Before that though, he's talking about taking a stronger grip and "releasing" (rotating) your hands through impact.

Sorry. General statements not allowed!

Seriously, how many of your average golfers, for a standard shot, will purposely aim anywhere except at the target? I'm talking a standard shot which they would like to hit straight, not some fancy cut or draw.  Whether their swingpath ultimately lines up with the target line is another problem altogether, but an open clubface (in relation to the swingpath) will produce left to right spin every, single time.

Haney's suggestion of a stronger grip and/or trying to feel a release through impact is not incorrect.  If your grip is too weak, you may have difficulty squaring up the clubhead.  The same is true if you do not rotate the hands back to square at impact.  After all, your hands are 90* open to the swing plane at the top of the backswing.  How else can they get back to square if not by rotation?

[Zeph]

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that an open clubface relative to the target line won't produce a slice (unless the swingpath is equal or outside it). I'm saying the most common cause for a slice is not an open clubface, but rather a swingpath moving out-to-in. A push-slice starts right and moves farther right. A pull-slice or straight-slice starts straight or to the left and curves to the right. I've had my share of push-slices, but I quickly deduced that I had to close the clubface. From what I've seen around golf courses, the most common problem is not an open clubface, but a swingpath moving too much out-to-in. That's not to say there are not those that push-slice too, but I don't agree with Haney in that it is the most common cause.

He should've spent a couple of seconds to explain the difference between a push-slice and straight-slice, since those two can have different causes. An out-in swingpath can be present at both, but on the first you'll want to square up the clubface first to see where you go from there.

If your ball starts straight or to the left and still curves to the right, the problem is not the clubface angle.

Last words on this discussion from me, it's not what this topic is about.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

1) My comment about talent was referring to Diane Warren vs. Beyonce.  Had nothing to do with golf instruction.

Sure it does, as well as any other analogy or whatnot does. Talent is not always the same as success, particularly when it's someone else's success. That's all he was trying to say, I think, and I believe the point was made.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

2)  You say that general statements have no place here, but you can make general statements about what other instructors say and what other amateurs hear? Doesn't seem fair.

No, I asked that you not make general statements when what you're trying to do is apply them to specific people, like Zeph or Hank Haney. The general statements I made are quite literally general statements - they're about the general population or the "average golfer" and what I've seen in my instruction. My general statements are direct observations of a "general" nature - you're trying to say Zeph or Hank are quite likely fitting the "general" mold.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

3) It's clear that Rush is excited, or should I say, "orgasmic" about his golf game now.  That excitement has come from his time with Haney, for he made a point of saying how he was ready to give up the game prior to that.  If he was not seeing that improvement, would he be taking those 100-200 swings per day?  I doubt it.  My contention is that whatever Haney was telling Rush was causing him to get better.  And isn't that what good instruction is all about?

That may be what "good" instruction is about, but I could argue that great instruction would have Rush being even better.

Look, nobody on here is saying that Hank's terrible. But Zeph is right, IMO, to point out things like "he could have done this better" or "he could have phrased this better." I'm right to question how much of his improvement comes from actually improving his technique and how much of it comes from simply making a concerted effort and playing more.

In the end none of us will know because Golf Channel never shows us any actual instruction (not at length, anyway). As we saw with Romano, when they do, it's fairly easily picked at. They're opinions, but they're opinions with some validity behind them.

Originally Posted by Zeph

I'm saying the most common cause for a slice is not an open clubface, but rather a swingpath moving out-to-in.

That's a good example (and one that's typically correct) of a generalization made about a general group. Those are allowed. What's silly is applying a generalization to a specific person.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that an open clubface relative to the target line won't produce a slice (unless the swingpath is equal or outside it). I'm saying the most common cause for a slice is not an open clubface, but rather a swingpath moving out-to-in. A push-slice starts right and moves farther right. A pull-slice or straight-slice starts straight or to the left and curves to the right. I've had my share of push-slices, but I quickly deduced that I had to close the clubface. From what I've seen around golf courses, the most common problem is not an open clubface, but a swingpath moving too much out-to-in. That's not to say there are not those that push-slice too, but I don't agree with Haney in that it is the most common cause.

He should've spent a couple of seconds to explain the difference between a push-slice and straight-slice, since those two can have different causes. An out-in swingpath can be present at both, but on the first you'll want to square up the clubface first to see where you go from there.

If your ball starts straight or to the left and still curves to the right, the problem is not the clubface angle.

Last words on this discussion from me, it's not what this topic is about.

I understand EXACTLY what you are talking about.  You and Haney disagree about what is the most likely cause of a slice in the average golfer.   Haney has given over 20,000 lessons, if I remember correctly from the show.  Maybe it was 200 pros and 50,000 lessons.  Anyway, it is a helluva lot of lessons. I ASSUME, therefore, that he has seen more AVERAGE golfers than you or I.  His opinion has some validity.  That is the point I was trying to make all along.  Perhaps you didn't understand what I was talking about.  Fair enough.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I understand EXACTLY what you are talking about.  You and Haney disagree about what is the most likely cause of a slice in the average golfer.   Haney has given over 20,000 lessons, if I remember correctly from the show.  Maybe it was 200 pros and 50,000 lessons.  Anyway, it is a helluva lot of lessons. I ASSUME, therefore, that he has seen more AVERAGE golfers than you or I.  His opinion has some validity.  That is the point I was trying to make all along.  Perhaps you didn't understand what I was talking about.  Fair enough.

And if you have the ball flight laws wrong, what you think is an open face and a decent path is actually the opposite: a relatively square face and a path that's left. So again, until we establish that Haney has the ball flight laws correct and always has , his prior lesson count is almost irrelevant.

How many slicers have I seen with a clubface open to the target more than 3 degrees? ZERO. How many has Dave seen, or James seen? Zero. I asked Chuck Evans, top 100 instructor (and been doing this a lot longer than Hank Haney), and what percentage of golfers did he say sliced due to the path, not due to the face? 99%. He said "I could probably count on two hands" the number of golfers I've ever seen with a clubface well open to the target as the cause of their slice.

[Parker0065]

LOL,,,How's 3rd grade going for you!

Good Luck!

[Parker0065]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parker0065

Either your jealous of Haney or you don't know much about the golf swing, or both? Which is it?

Haney has put more players in the proffessional ranks than anyone here on this DB, so it sounds like pure jealousy,,,get over it!!!!!

It would probably be cool to try teaching golf for a living, but I can't say I'm jealous of Hank, what's that got to do with anything?

I know some about the golf swing. More than most, but not as much as the best.

Since when did the number of professionals a person teach have anything to do with physics?

Since in the big boy world us adults are graded and payed on our accomplishments!  I'm honestly not trying to be mean, but you sound like you live on your mothers basement and diliver pizza's

I don't care if HH knows: ball physics, the sun light coefficient, the theory of relativity or whatever theory you want to dream up!

Bottom Line: Is he succesful in his proffession? The answer is yes so you slamming him looks more like jealousy than anything!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Parker0065

Bottom Line: Is he succesful in his proffession? The answer is yes so you slamming him looks more like jealousy than anything!

Look, success is not always an exact indicator of talent. And if it was, how successful was Hank at fixing Ray Romano?

Hank Haney's not the world's greatest instructor and he's not the world's worst. The answer lies somewhere in the middle, and I encourage everyone to think for themselves. If that means questioning everyone and everything, please, be my guest. If we all keep thinking, and all keep learning, we'll all be better off in the end.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Parker0065

Since in the big boy world us adults are graded and payed on our accomplishments!  I'm honestly not trying to be mean, but you sound like you live on your mothers basement and diliver pizza's

I don't care if HH knows:  ball physics, the sun light coefficient, the theory of relativity or whatever theory you want to dream up!

Bottom Line: Is he succesful in his proffession? The answer is yes so you slamming him looks more like jealousy than anything!

Seems this entire discussion is futile, you don't even attempt to understand what we are talking about.

I'll ignore your childish attempts at annoying me. If that is you in the avatar, I'm surprised you would stoop to such levels. It is what I would expect from a 14 year old.

[dunstert]

Bleh to all this I-understand-the-swing-better-than-you talk in this thread that has little to do with the show...

I gave it a shot, watched 3-4 episodes (however many have been shown to date) and deleted my season pass after the last episode.  It's a bully pulpit for Rush - he already has one of those and I'm not interested in spending time watching another version.

I enjoyed the Barkley season because he's a funny guy (mostly self-deprecating).  I didn't enjoy the Romano season as much because I always found Ray Romano a bit irritating.  I'm far from a Rush fan but gave this one a go.  I'm sure Rush fans are loving the season, but I just can't watch it anymore.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dunstert

I gave it a shot, watched 3-4 episodes (however many have been shown to date) and deleted my season pass after the last episode.  It's a bully pulpit for Rush - he already has one of those and I'm not interested in spending time watching another version.

I'm tempted to stop watching simply due to the stupid, repeated chest thumping. Does Rush know how dumb that makes him look? Seriously, come up with another move.

But Hank Haney was using a MacBook Pro, so now we're going to try to get a copy of Analyzr Pro to him. ;-)

[Chas]

Sticking with the show for a change of pace ..... and tx to Erik for bringing it back ...... of course Rush is a bit of an opinionated blow-hard.  He is also very smart and plays off of his public image in this show, sometimes with irony.  It is his self-image, it is what he does, and it is what has made him a very wealthy man.  I understand those who dislike his style, especially if they are also of a liberal persuasion - he would be the 3rd rail in that case.  Me, I can take a fair amount of his bluster and bravado because he has a quick mind, is amusing at times, and in this show he is forced to be humble about the game of golf as he tries to improve.

Isn't that what the show is about - the great game of golf and how different people deal with the frustrations and challenges?  This game is greater than any wealthy public figure, greater than any ego in the world, greater than any intellect - the most infuriating and the most gratifying game that I know.  To me, the Rush show is fascinating because you see the conflict in a rather pure form - self-confident, opinionated, successful person vs. a little white ball sitting there on the range or the course. You could argue that it makes no sense for a man like Rush to put himself through a show like this.  That he does it is a testament to his love and respect for the game, whatever you think of him or his politics.  Maybe that isn't enough to keep you watching, but think about whether there isn't some value that you are missing if you can just ignore the rest of it.