Flipping at Impact Master Thread

[CuppedTin]

This seems to be getting away from the instruction of anti-flipping...

[JackLee]

Originally Posted by mchepp

The fact that you don't believe that a video would not prove anything is pretty much the end of any true debate on this topic. You don't want to provide evidence of your claim fine don't expect anyone to believe you. If you don't have a before, that is totally fine, but then you should have an after and that would end the debate because you would be providing proof, not just your words.

Don't you see how after this post someone provides pictures, evidence of flipping, how it proves their point. In fact you even backtrack on your comments because you have seen the evidence.

If you have the simple solution to solving a flip and it can be done by reading an e-book produce evidence and I guarantee people will follow. Don't tell me it is in my head, what kind of evidence is that? "All the pro's do it", what in the world are you talking about. There are multiple releases that professionals use to deliver the club to the ball. I bet it is some crock like "start the swing with your lower body", buy a Golf Digest some pro in there will tell you that.

Your reading comprehension is not so good, or my memory is not so good.  I cannot rememeber saying "all the pros do it".  The only way anyone is going to believe this is to buy it and try it, but you do need to have at least average reading comprehension.  But for those who don't, there is a money back gaurantee.  However, I don't care what you do.  I have just been trying to help those who are willing to accept help.

I get no financial benefit from this instruction.  I don't even know the author, and I have decided I am not helping the author by talking about his instruction on a forum where there are "know it all idiots" posting.

BTW, my lower body does lead my down and through swing perfectly, but again, that is a result, not something I think about.  If I thought about it, it would have no chance of being perfect.

I'm gone now, and I doubt that I will ever post on this forum again.  So, just keep on searching.  I just put "golf swing" in on Google and got 14,800,000 hits.  Try one.  You might get lucky.

Hey Erik, sorry about getting off topic here.  Bye now.

[handlez42]

i also have a tour striker and have found compressing the ball somewhat difficult. I find myself hitting more on the bottom of the elevated sweetspot.

there might be a few small things you can adjust.

1. ball position. people worry too much about angle of attack and wrist angles and so on. the most important thing in the scene of a golf shot is the only inanimate object involved, being the golf ball.

2. another thing people should consider is hand position. when setting up your grip, lean the shaft forward in a "compressing" position, then grip the club comfortably. theres a flaw in gripping a club and setting it up at address position with your hands/grip in line with the clubhead, when the proper position is with the club lagged behind the hands in a position that compresses the ball with a downward angle of attack.

3. diligence to the game. i picked up golf after deciding to stop playing basketball 2 years ago in college. one thing i noticed and compared is you never play as many games as you practice in the gym. its almost the same exact thing with golf. range time is pretty important in a sense of just getting the motions etched into your muscles memory. or the feeling of contact in a preferred angle.

When i bought the tour striker i took in most cases a sandwedge my driver a fairway wood and thats it. i ranged about 6 or 7 times before going out for a round of 9 and shot my best at a 41, and even knew certain spots where i could have shot even lower.

just remember...when at the range dont shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot. take you time, and prepare mentally. find a target, commit to the target. find the set up (ball position, hand position, and so on) and commit. and once you get all these things decided put them behind you and put 1 thought in your mind. contact. the ball itself. the best players play well because they think of less. 1 or 2 thoughts at most. i think of one thing on my back swing and one thing on my downswing. not only helps with tempo but with over thinking a shot. visualize and go at it. most of the reason why speed golfers are more improved fast paced over slow is the thought process. think less. make golf as natural as you can. and more often positive outcomes will occur.

good will golfing

~thank you tom watson. because your run at the 09' open is what gave me this new passion.~

[mchepp]

Alright lets talk about some flipping.

In my swing I believe I flip because my clubface is open late in the downswing and I try to use my hands to square the face. I also think that my lower body has stalled and that is part of the problem. If you look at my swing in these pictures at P6.5 my hands don't look bad. They are ahead of the ball, my left arm is bending a bit, but overall it is not bad. At impact my hands are still ahead but the trouble is now underway. My left arm has bent even more and my hands have not moved much more forward if at all.

Now post impact all heck has broken loose now. The clubhead is ahead of the hands and I have swiped the ball, hit it straight, but either pulled and not very high or far.

My point here is flipping can have all sorts of causes and affects. I can show you 3/4 swings where I don't flip at all, but when making a full swing it shows up. Also we must look at the P6.5, P7, and P7.5 to see if there is a flip.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

My point here is flipping can have all sorts of causes and affects. I can show you 3/4 swings where I don't flip at all, but when making a full swing it shows up. Also we must look at the P6.5, P7, and P7.5 to see if there is a flip.

Yes. Can you make full-speed swings and stop before P8 while still retaining the flying wedge? If that's all you focus on - not where the ball goes or what it does? Even if you have to do something odd like pre-set the hips well forwards?

I'm just asking if, on your own, you can do that?

[Stretch]

Ha. Those pictures could be me too!

You're absolutely correct about the hip stall. Here is the textbook illustration:

Note the action of the right wrist in the picture above (and your and my swing sequences). If the body stops moving correctly on the downswing, the angle between the right arm and the shaft is thrown out and the right wrist rolls over the left through impact, dropping the butt end of the club back and allowing the shaft to overtake the left arm. This is a big part of what shifts the plane out to the left and results in the low, weak pulls and pull fades you mention.

Umm, or at least that's my interpretation of it.

[CuppedTin]

I think stalling the hips is the biggest reason for the flip. I mean when you stall/stop the hips then you are basically a pendulum IMO... I find it easier to hold the flying wedge with a nice smooth 90 back and 180 thru...

[mchepp]

Good post Stretch.

The question I have is it about being forward or not enough rotation. When I look at my swing from the top I move forward quite a bit. See the images here.

My hips are about 3-4" forward. That is pretty forward in my opinion. But they have not rotated very much. In fact even swings of Charlie (or any pro for that matter) his hips are far more open than mine. I think because my face is open if I opened my hips like the pros I would block it off the planet. So to compensate I flip. A great conversation though.

Originally Posted by iacas

Yes. Can you make full-speed swings and stop before P8 while still retaining the flying wedge? If that's all you focus on - not where the ball goes or what it does? Even if you have to do something odd like pre-set the hips well forwards?

I'm just asking if, on your own, you can do that?

Yes, I can certainly try this. Usually when I think about holding flying wedges I generally get the sh*nks. Usually because I get the sweetspot out too far. But I am willing to give it a try.

[Stretch]

I think (and again, just my opinion) that at the point we're getting to it is primarily a question of rotation and (lack of) extension, with the latter being the root cause of the former.

If I look at myself below, I have already slid about as far as I am going to in the frame on the left. Basically, from there to impact, my hips are pretty static -- maybe they've turned a tiny bit, but they've stayed at the same level (relative to the ground) as shown by the position of the belt buckle.

Now, if you look at Charlie (hey, you mentioned him) you notice his big linear move is completed even earlier but, from there, his left hip keeps working up and back (away from the ball) as his legs straighten, raising the level of his belt buckle and getting his pelvis into the "cleared" position that allows him to drive the handle through the strike and not flip it.

Technically, from what I remember, the explanation is that the hips need to be released from the downward tilt (left lower than right) that is established in the backswing. This requires that the player straighten his legs (by "jumping" or "pushing off the ground") into impact.

As always, theory is one thing and practice another.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Good post Stretch.

The question I have is it about being forward or not enough rotation. When I look at my swing from the top I move forward quite a bit. See the images here.

My hips are about 3-4" forward. That is pretty forward in my opinion. But they have not rotated very much. In fact even swings of Charlie (or any pro for that matter) his hips are far more open than mine. I think because my face is open if I opened my hips like the pros I would block it off the planet. So to compensate I flip. A great conversation though.

Yes, I can certainly try this. Usually when I think about holding flying wedges I generally get the sh*nks. Usually because I get the sweetspot out too far. But I am willing to give it a try.

Your hip slide is fine, but a good hip slide is useless if it it not accompanied with rotation, I would also like to see your lead shoulder go down another 4-6 inches on your back swing... I think you are over thinking the open or closed hips, you can not block the ball with closed hips if you rotate through the shot. You are simply sliding and stopping at the ball IMO...

PS- I am in no way trained to give swing advice, but I do anyway...

[mchepp]

Agreed Stretch, another excellent post. I was thinking after studying your picture and mine that we both appear "stuck" in flexion in our sequences. It is my opinion that there are multiple ways of getting out of flexion one of course being "standing up" others being snapping the left leg as Tiger did in 2000. I have sort of passively been working on this but after reading all this I think I will step up the efforts to work on this.

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Your hip slide is fine, but a good hip slide is useless if it it not accompanied with rotation, I would also like to see your lead shoulder go down another 4-6 inches on your back swing... I think you are over thinking the open or closed hips, you can not block the ball with closed hips if you rotate through the shot. You are simply sliding and stopping at the ball IMO...

PS- I am in no way trained to give swing advice, but I do anyway...

CuppedTin,

Interesting advice on the shoulder, something tells me you may be gotten some of that very same advice yourself. This isn't really a thread about my swing and what to improve so I won't go into tons of detail on this other that to say it is something I am working on and I agree.

In my perfect world there would be more threads like this. The percentage of golfers with a flip is very high and they vary greatly we should discuss it more. I am willing to discuss my challenges with flipping in the hopes of helping someone else.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by mchepp

CuppedTin,

Interesting advice on the shoulder, something tells me you may be gotten some of that very same advice yourself. This isn't really a thread about my swing and what to improve so I won't go into tons of detail on this other that to say it is something I am working on and I agree.

In my perfect world there would be more threads like this. The percentage of golfers with a flip is very high and they vary greatly we should discuss it more. I am willing to discuss my challenges with flipping in the hopes of helping someone else.

Post up a picture of your set-up... I really do not think you have such an up hill battle ahead of you, I would really like to see what your present setup looks like.

And yes on the shoulder, I have received great advice on this forum. It is much easier to maintain your tilt and spine angle if you turn back with your lead shoulder on that same angle/plane and by doing this it makes it much easier not to stand up and come out of the shot...

You should start a thread with your swing and go from there...

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by mchepp

... stuck in flexion ...

I like that.

[handlez42]

i dont have pictures but from the last picture i saw the singular 90 degree angle...and then in frame 2 the there are two separate 90 degree angles. Assuming one is the original angle, while the other is on the follow-through?

That ive noticed on my better days of striking is slightly related to that "stack n' tilt" method. simply sitting more weight on your front foot and avoid sliding back on your takeaway. some people who slide back have a tendency to not slide back forward enough, resulting in their swing bottoming out before the ball.

Just imagine when you start your swing, keep your hips as laterally "quiet" as possible. Keep them in the same spot as much as you can. try the knee bend and hip turn without sliding, and then on your downswing slowly start to push forward. Helps drive the ball, and also helps get the downward, ball-then-ground contact, where your compressing the ball. I also found that i sometimes don't release my hands properly which kinda raised my shoulders and took my body out of the shot, which results in topping the ball.

So tips: 1, keeping the hips *quiet*. and driving though the ball, which creates better contact. contact is more important than swing speed.

2. also releasing the hands properly. what helps that? Try a slight pause at the top of your swing. smooth tempo and transitions help with giving your hands time to release.

3. cant say it enough, RANGE. Sooo important even if you go 1-3 more times a week than you usually do. take a day that you usually would play a round, off, and hit the range. it will make that next round that much sweeter.

good will golfing

"it all started at the 09' open. a memorable performance sparked my interest in this game of insanity"

[chrisronline]

Big flipper too - purchased the Tour Striker but didn't see the kind of results I expected.

I feel like I'm making progress - been working on it for a few months now and hoping to break the habit soon. The tips in this thread look pretty solid and I'm starting to think along the same lines of posting the left side. From what I noticed in my swing, my leading leg bends towards the target instead of "posting up" and allowing my body to rotate over it. The least I imagine this drill can do is make it feel very strange to not drive the clubhead into impact so hopefully give me some immediate feedback if I'm working in the right direction.

Anyways, glad this thread exists and I'll post some screenshots on my progress soon.

[bunkerputt]

mchepp,  you've already flipped before you get to p6.  Since the club is already releasing, you have no choice but to rake across the ball.  The club is releasing because your shoulders rotated open too quickly and your arms haven't brought the club down quickly enough so that the release happens at the right time.  You need to both increase the flexibility in your torso, allowing the left side stretch to happen at the transition, and pull your arms down into the ball during the transition in concert with the lateral hip movement.  At P6, your hands should be slightly right of your crotch.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

mchepp,  you've already flipped before you get to p6.  Since the club is already releasing, you have no choice but to rake across the ball.  The club is releasing because your shoulders rotated open too quickly and your arms haven't brought the club down quickly enough so that the release happens at the right time.

I like this point.  If you combine the swift open movement of the shoulders with not enough hip movement to the left, that is certainly a remedy for a flip and swip across the ball.

However, I don't think mchepp positions in his pictures are "that bad" or close to as bad as he's saying. Many amateurs have the club head already passed their left arm at impact and that massive flip is very common.