Jump to content
IGNORED

Julie Inkster DQ over rule violation....


MSDOGS1976
Note: This thread is 3838 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

As long as I'm in the mood to post comments this morning I sure don't understand how the RO allowed a back up such that there was a 30 minute wait at the tee box. That's worse than most of the muni courses I play. Seems as if they wanted to give out penalties there should have been some for slow play.

Butch

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Replies 70
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

ghalfaire..........If a group is not more than a hole behind there is no cause for putting players on the clock. Cypress Point has the same problem every year at the pars 3's. (15 & 16). There is a major log jam every day. It is just in the course design some times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
ghalfaire..........If a group is not more than a hole behind there is no cause for putting players on the clock. Cypress Point has the same problem every year at the pars 3's. (15 & 16). There is a major log jam every day. It is just in the course design some times.

Yes, this was a par five where EVERYBODY was going for it in two.

He brought up a somewhat valid point about the can of worms nature of allowing people to call in or email rules violations. Its not the enforcing of rules that is bad, if a violation occurs, the proper penalty should be enforced, it's just that the idea that armchair rule officials can call in and report possible violations seems to maybe undermine the rules officials themselves.

How can they be undermined? They're not there to watch everything that goes on. Most events have 3 to 9 ROs and they're out wandering around in case a player calls them over. They're not watching the telecast. Heck, the LPGA rarely even telecasts in real time.

I think they appreciate being "helped" - and the field does too. Juli can only really be upset with herself, and in the end I think she's glad someone called in because if her rules infraction became known after the tournament was over she'd be in a pickle. I don't think it undermines the ROs at all. They're not with every group or watching every player.
His issue also came down to how exactly you can even get a hold of the rules officials or tournament directors. The numbers aren't listed since they change from week to week, you can't just find slugger white's email or phone number on the PGA Tour or USGA websites, and even members of the press/media do not have any of said phone numbers/emails (I'm sure

I dunno, again, I'm sure you could call the pro shop at the host course and SOMEONE would pick up.

He just talked about how someone had mentioned that the footage that was used as evidence never actually aired on the Golf Channel's live broadcast, but I wasn't watching it so I wouldn't know. Anyone else find this idea interesting?

I think it aired once and then was removed during their re-broadcast later in the evening.

Personally I'd say rules are rules, but the host pointed out that its a possibility that you can quantify the strokes that would be gained by johnson "testing the conditions" of a hazard, whereas Inkster or any player using a practice aid has possibly gained an unknown amount of strokes by practicing with the aid and changing their swing (unnaturaly?) mid round, so they must be DQ'd. I don't know if it's a valid point, but it makes

It makes sense, yes.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

To put it in another light, if Juli won and who ever reported the violation did not afterall, whoever came in second lost a bunch of money and OWGR points. The rules are the same for everyone, if one of the players break a rule and gets away with it, it is not fair towards the others. I find it irrelevant who sees and reports the violation as long as the rules are enforced.

Ogio Grom | Callaway X Hot Pro | Callaway X-Utility 3i | Mizuno MX-700 23º | Titleist Vokey SM 52.08, 58.12 | Mizuno MX-700 15º | Titleist 910 D2 9,5º | Scotty Cameron Newport 2 | Titleist Pro V1x and Taylormade Penta | Leupold GX-1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

There's no uniformity to the TV coverage. If Tiger hits 70 shots....TV shows 70 shots, however, if Matt Kuchar hits 70 shots, they may show 10 (unless he's in contention).

The key to this argument is Rule 6-1.

6-1. Rules The player and his caddie are responsible for knowing the Rules. During a stipulated round, for any breach of a Rule by his caddie, the player incurs the applicable penalty.

Regardless of the apparent inequality of allowing armchair quarterbacking on the rules, it is still 100% the player's responsibility to know and follow the Rules of Golf. This rule supports the fundamental concept that it makes no difference how the breach is discovered, the player is still the responsible party for his or his caddie's act of violating a rule.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Interesting question, jamo. I think it comes down to whether such practice is considered unusual or not, which is one of the unfortunate areas in the Decisions, IMO. Some of them seem a little random, but I think that using a head cover would be ok. Under Decision 14-3/6.5, holding a ball in your hand while making a practice stroke (to assist with alignment or something) is ok, because, "The prohibition in Rule 14-3 against using equipment in an unusual manner applies to strokes that count in the player's score and not to practice swings or practice strokes." Since the head cover is ordinary equipment, I think its use in an unusual manner would be permitted by the same logic. The donut (and similarly, weighted headcovers and alignment rods) are not permitted even for practice because they are "unusual equipment," rather than ordinary equipment used in an unusual manner.

What if you took the headcover, threw in 2-3 golf balls and used it that way? You are using your conforming equipment, you haven't added/modified your equipment, etc..

So Julie Inkster was DQ'd from the tournament because she pulled out a weighted donut to help keep her loose during a 30 minute weight on the 10th hole.

so is a wet towel or a towel in general at the end of a club to create that lag feeling or to help stretch out muscles legit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
What if you took the headcover, threw in 2-3 golf balls and used it that way? You are using your conforming equipment, you haven't added/modified your equipment, etc..

Perhaps you could read the previous post where it's pointed out that equipment used in unusual ways is fine if not used during a stroke and figure out the answer for yourself?

The point is to prohibit use of training aids. It seems rather simple and straightforward to me.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Perhaps you could read the previous post where it's pointed out that equipment used in unusual ways is fine if not used during a stroke and figure out the answer for yourself?

Actually, equipment used in an unusual way is not always "fine". It is often just as wrong as using a training aid when it's done to breach the intent of a rule. Lying a club on the ground to aid in aiming and leaving it there during a stroke is just as much a penalty as using an alignment stick. It could be construed that a towel tied to the end of a club and used to provide resistance for a series of warmup swings is a sufficient aid in making a stroke that it could be a breach of 14-3. Not saying yes or no for certain, but a case might be made for such. That is the sort of case that I don't want to be making a ruling on without someone to back ask for support.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Actually, equipment used in an unusual way is not always "fine". It is often just as wrong as using a training aid when it's done to breach the intent of a rule. Lying a club on the ground to aid in aiming and leaving it there during a stroke is just as much a penalty as using an alignment stick.

That's not using equipment in an unusual way, that's using an alignment aid. Different rule altogether. An alignment stick is unusual equipment, a club is not.

Source: Decision 8-2a/1 Club Placed on Ground to Align Feet Q. A player places a club on the ground parallel to the line of play to assist him in aligning his feet properly. Is this permissible? A. Yes, provided the player removes the club before playing his stroke. Otherwise, a breach of Rule 8-2a would occur.

Source: Decision 14-3/10.3 Use of Rod During Round for Alignment or as Swing Aid Q. During a stipulated round, a player uses a rod to check his alignment or his swing plane. What is the ruling? A.The player is disqualified under Rule 14-3 as the rod is unusual equipment and such use, during the stipulated round, is not permitted. Carrying the rod is not, of itself, a breach of a Rule. (New)

It could be construed that a towel tied to the end of a club and used to provide resistance for a series of warmup swings is a sufficient aid in making a stroke that it could be a breach of 14-3. Not saying yes or no for certain, but a case might be made for such. That is the sort of case that I don't want to be making a ruling on without someone to back ask for support.

I don't think you can make a case that way. It's not used in making a stroke:

Source: Decision 14-3/6.5 A. Yes. The prohibition in Rule 14-3 against using equipment in an unusual manner applies to strokes that count in the player's score and not to practice swings or practice strokes.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Actually, equipment used in an unusual way is not always "fine". It is often just as wrong as using a training aid when it's done to breach the intent of a rule. Lying a club on the ground to aid in aiming and leaving it there during a stroke is just as much a penalty as using an alignment stick. It could be construed that a towel tied to the end of a club and used to provide resistance for a series of warmup swings is a sufficient aid in making a stroke that it could be a breach of 14-3. Not saying yes or no for certain, but a case might be made for such. That is the sort of case that I don't want to be making a ruling on without someone to back ask for support.

I agree with your last point for sure --- I wouldn't advise doing anything unusual without first clearing it with someone who actually can clear it for the competition in question.

However, since you ARE allowed to use a club for alignment as long as you pick it up before your stroke, whereas you are NOT allowed to use an alignment rod at all, even between strokes, I think it's reasonably clear that ordinary equipment can be used for almost any purpose when not making a stroke . I'd feel pretty confident that both golf balls and head covers qualify as ordinary. Regardless of the technicalities, I'm with you: why push the boundaries? Swinging 2 or 3 clubs together achieves most of the same benefits and is both customary equipment and a customary practice for stretching, so won't raise any eyebrows.

In the bag:
FT-iQ 10° driver, FT 21° neutral 3H
T-Zoid Forged 15° 3W, MX-23 4-PW
Harmonized 52° GW, Tom Watson 56° SW, X-Forged Vintage 60° LW
White Hot XG #1 Putter, 33"

Link to comment
Share on other sites


You don't see rules in the NFL being enforced b/c some goof at a BWW caught a holding call that the refs' missed. When the rules book makes an accomodation for outsiders with no stake in the round to call a rules violation, I'll be ok with it because I respect the rules.

The NFL has how many, six officials? to cover an area 360 feet by 160 feet, and the actionable events are taking place right in front of at least one of them. In golf, six rules officials cover 150 acres. Also, football players essentially do whatever they want to and let the officials make the call. If there's no flag, then you got away with it. There's no "getting away with it" in golf. Would there be any difference between a TV viewer calling in the infraction, and a knowledgable spectator pointing out the same thing? I don't think so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Because you have to go to some effort to call in a violation (although I believe it was emailed in this case). It isn't just pick up phone and use your speed dial or turn on the computer and email it, you have to do some research work and spend some time to find proper number or address to report a violation. But I wasn't questioning anyone's right to, just don't understand why anyone would for such a minor violation. I can't think of another sport where a spectator can call in a rules violation and change the results of a competition. But maybe there is. But since it is legal, and as I said in the original post, I don't think Julie has any complaint and apparently neither does she.

I also can't think of any other sport with the level of self imposed integrity as golf. In every other sport, athletes are keen on trying to get away with breaking the rules. When was the last time you saw a football player call a holding penalty on himself? Umm never. Or the last time a basketball player called an offensive foul on himself. Once again never, in fact they will argue with the referee, and insist that no foul was committed. I can't think of any other sport than golf in which the players themselves hold themselves to a higher standard and will call out penalties on themselves when they knowingly screw up.

 

In my Mizuno Aerolite IV Stand Bag:

Driver: Titleist 910D2 (9.5°, RIP Alpha 70S)
Wood: Titleist 910F (15°, RIP Alpha 70S)

Irons: Mizuno MP-68 Irons (3 - PW, C-Taper S+), Mizuno MP-33 2 Iron (C-Taper S+)

Wedges: Vokey Spin Milled (56.11 - Bent to 54°, 60.07 Tour Chrome, C-Taper S+ DSS)

Putter: Scotty Cameron Newport 2 (34")

Ball: Titleist Pro-V1x

GPS: Garmin Approach g5

Most useful training aids (for me) that I use: Tour Striker Pro 7 Iron, Swingyde, Tour Sticks alignment sticks, Dave Pelz Putting Tutor

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • 3 years later...

The rule is there to follow so I agree with what Ingster got.  No argument there.   If the rule says she is banned for life from LPGA, so be it.   No argument there, again.  If the rule says she is to be executed by firing squad, so be it.  No argument there ... well, maybe there is.

But just  think about this.   In all other sports, players will be encouraged to stay loose and warmed up by most means.  E.g, some basketball players do stationary bike during half time.  Baseball players use weights while on deck.   For golf to have this particular rule and DQ as its penalty, well, that is stupid.    IMO, the rule got to be changed.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator

The rule is there to follow so I agree with what Ingster got.  No argument there.   If the rule says she is banned for life from LPGA, so be it.   No argument there, again.  If the rule says she is to be executed by firing squad, so be it.  No argument there ... well, maybe there is.

But just  think about this.   In all other sports, players will be encouraged to stay loose and warmed up by most means.  E.g, some basketball players do stationary bike during half time.  Baseball players use weights while on deck.   For golf to have this particular rule and DQ as its penalty, well, that is stupid.    IMO, the rule got to be changed.

There's nothing saying she's not allowed to stay loose and stretch. There is a rule saying you can't use unusual equipment during a round.

The rule that says you can't use unusual equipment during a round eliminates a LOT of things FAR more serious than what she did.

In other words, rule 14-3 talks about "Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment And Unusual Use Of Equipment" and rather than provide a laundry list of what kinds of equipment is "unusual" or anything, they define it in broad strokes and then leave well enough alone.

The Rule won't be changed because there are plenty of far worse ways to use "unusual equipment" and "artificial devices" during a round, and listing all of that out would take pages and pages and pages and STILL not be complete.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

There's nothing saying she's not allowed to stay loose and stretch. There is a rule saying you can't use unusual equipment during a round.

The rule that says you can't use unusual equipment during a round eliminates a LOT of things FAR more serious than what she did.

In other words, rule 14-3 talks about "Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment And Unusual Use Of Equipment" and rather than provide a laundry list of what kinds of equipment is "unusual" or anything, they define it in broad strokes and then leave well enough alone.

The Rule won't be changed because there are plenty of far worse ways to use "unusual equipment" and "artificial devices" during a round, and listing all of that out would take pages and pages and pages and STILL not be complete.

Ring weight is an unusual equipment?  I don't think so.   Also, why would it matter which tool is used to stay warmed up?   Forget what I said about changing the rule.  I will be ok with just removing the rule altogether.     That is, there should not be any restriction on how a player keeps himself warm up in between holes.     Golf is a game at the end of the day.  Having a rule book much thicker than Bible for a game .... that's an overkill in my Bible.

RiCK

(Play it again, Sam)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Ring weight is an unusual equipment?  I don't think so.   Also, why would it matter which tool is used to stay warmed up?   Forget what I said about changing the rule.  I will be ok with just removing the rule altogether.     That is, there should not be any restriction on how a player keeps himself warm up in between holes.     Golf is a game at the end of the day.  Having a rule book much thicker than Bible for a game .... that's an overkill in my Bible.

Before you go making rules change you really ought to acquaint yourself with what the rules are.  What they are NOT is thicker than the Bible.  The rules book has 210 pages. many of which deal with rules that have nothing to do with on course play.  I doubt I have a Bible with less than 1000 pages.  So you are off by more than a factor of 5.

And you want to remove the rule altogether.  What rule is that?  Rule14-3?  The whole rule?  Because I am sure you know that there i actually nothing in that rule about keeping warmed up or loose while waiting.  The least you could do is be specific about exactly what rule you want to change.
If, that is, you want to be taken seriously.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 3838 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • I agree with @klineka & @DaveP043 above.  When a new member first joins the club they cold be told that they are not eligible for tournaments until they have an established HCP.  As you said, it only takes a few rounds.  If they do not to post HCP that was their choice and choices have consequences.  If playing in the tournament is important to them then they should step up and establish an HCP.  Maybe they miss the 1st tournament, is that a real big deal?  And if it is a "Big Deal" to them then they had the opportunity to establish the HCP. As for not knowing how to report for HCP I assume your club has a pro and they should be able to assist in getting the scores reported and I suspect out of state courses may also have staff that can assist if asked.
    • Wordle 1,013 2/6 🟨⬜⬜🟨🟨 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 Thought I was gonna be a big shot today...  🙂    Nice Job!
    • Cool here's my tweak, "If a player’s ball lies in the general area and there is interference from exposed tree roots or exposed rocks that are in the fairway or 1 club length from the fairway the tree roots and exposed rocks are treated as ground under repair. The player may take free relief under Rule 16.1b.[But relief is not allowed if the tree roots only interfere with the player’s stance.]
    • I would never do the extended warranty on the $50 slow cooker.  I also routinely reject the extended service plans on those toys we buy for the grand-kids.  I do consider them on higher cost items and will be more likely to get one if the product has a lot of "Electronic Tech" that is often the problem longer-term.  I also consider my intended length of ownership & usage.  If my thought is it would get replaced in 2-3 years then why bother but if I hope to use it for 10 years then more likely to get the extension. I did buy out a lease about a year ago.  Just prior to the lease end date the tablet locked up and would not function.  I got it repaired under the initial warranty and would not have bought it out if they had not been able to fix it since IMO once electronic issues start in a car they can be hard to track down & fix.  They did fix it but when I bought out the lease I paid up for the extended warranty the would cover electronic failures because my intent is to keep that car for another 8-10 years and I just do not trust the electronics to last.  Last week the touch screen went black and was unresponsive.  It reset on the 2nd time I restarted the car but that is exactly how the last malfunction started.  I fully expect to have a claim on that on repair under the extended warranty.  I do not recall the exact cost to fix last time since I did not pay it but I think it was @ $700-$800 and I suspect that will be higher next time.
    • Have you looked at Model Local Rule F-9 Relief from Tree Roots in or Close to Fairway?  You could extend this to cover exposed rocks.  The rule is recommended to be used only for areas relatively near the fairway, a player who hits a shot 20 yards in the woods doesn't really deserve relief.   Players can always take Unplayable Ball relief, they're not required to play it from a rock or a root.  Of course, they hate to take the penalty stroke too.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...