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motteler621

Sean Foley's new DVD

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Jamo- I'm genuinely thankful you're trying to help me understand this. I actually just got done watching this after reading a post on GolfWRX. My misunderstanding with what Sean had to convey was with me confusing the path line and the target line. This video cleared a lot up.


Don't thank me, iacas made the video.

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This DVD is friggin' ridiculous. It's terrible . I have no idea how anyone who hasn't already read the S&T; books will have any clue what in the world he's talking about half the time.

Here are some quotes - verbatim - from this DVD...

Quote:
[Doing the follow-through properly is] "going to prepare us that we're not going to get into over-use injury and end up having to go to rehab."

Quote:
"As in the rest of the swing, we're trying to get the club to swing on the arc or perpendicular to it, which is in a circle that is working around us."

Quote:
"A drill we have to go along with the takeaway is basically what you need to do is grab a stick or a pencil or anything like that..."

Quote:
"As we move into the top of the swing what we're looking at is continuing from the takeaway is making sure and ensuring that the body and arms are doing the correct thing to work in connection with each other in collaboration with each other."

Quote:
"Kay so if you have the ability to work on that and make sure that they work in association with each other, the arm swing and the body, you're gonna find a swing that's more simple, there doesn't have to be a re-connection of the arms to the body in the downswing..."

The entire DVD feels like some people got drunk the night before and said "let's make a DVD!" So Sean goes out and kinda rambles on for 70 minutes, they shoot a few things over because Sean forgets what he was going to say but for the most part they take whatever they get, then they add a few little fancy lines in post-production and call it a day.

The camera angles are bad, they make no use of measurements or slow-motion video, there are no checkpoints, and 80% of the time the average golfer is goign to have no idea what in the world he's talking about .

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Having given this more thought I seriously think that something like this happened:

Guy to Sean Foley: "Hey, you're teaching Tiger now, you should capitalize and make a DVD! I'll help - you can make a killing!"

Sean Foley to Guy: "Oh, I don't know, what would I say? You and I both know I've gotten by fooling everyone."

Guy: "Right, just talk like you do in the way that you have that tricks people into thinking you're some new-age mystical instructor, and the people will love it. Plus, they'll see that what you're teaching isn't S&T; at all, just something that looks almost exactly like it."

SF: "Sure, okay, when? As I read in Mein Kampf , [insert something that may or may not have been in Mein Kampf here.] So sooner the better!"

Guy: "Right, let's do it in time for Christmas!"

SF: "Okay. I have a day next week. Everything is everything, and time is time, except when it's money, and then it's both."

Guy: "Great, just show up, I'll have a film crew, and you talk for awhile. We'll film it and make it look great in post-production. The DVDs won't have to be great - by the time we sell 'em based on your name and your association with Tiger Woods, we'll have already made bank."

SF: "Okay. As Plato said, [insert something Plato may or may not have said here.] Myelin! Let's change the chemical composition of the water in people's brains!"

So without a script or an actual plan, a DVD is born, some little graphics are added in post, and we have the waste of $50 known as the Next Generation DVD.

I see no way the average golfer can really understand this DVD or use much of anything in it to help their golf game. Nothing's explained, there's no depth, half of what Sean Foley says makes no sense and little of what he says is grammatically correct. It's like they had 89 minutes of footage and so they ended up with an 89-minute DVD. How else do you explain the inclusion of a shot that's a dimple or two away from being thinned so bad it wouldn't get off the ground?

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So Erik, in your opinion, this might not be such a good DVD?  I'm a little confused on just what you think about it.

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I wrote this and though it's slightly redundant, I wanted to post it again. It was in response to someone who said:

Quote:
There's some parts where I wish he was more specific about concepts, but it's still better than almost every golf instruction video out there. He's not quite as smooth at talking on video as [others are].

I think you're too kind on this one. Even though I am bound to agree with virtually everything he's trying to say, given that it's "S&T; Lite" or whatever, I think the there are several other that are "better" in terms of communicating their message. The message may be junk in most of those other golf videos, but I think there are probably many "better" videos out there if your criteria is "communicates and demonstrates effectively."
I think the average golfer's not going to have a clue what Sean is talking about most of the time. Sure, they'll understand words like "downswing" and "impact" but the video simply feels like a rush production done to take advantage of Sean's fame having signed on with Tiger. There doesn't seem to be a script and Sean just rambles along.
The box says the DVD is 89 minutes long (my ripped copy - i.e. ripped from my discs which I purchased and own - includes everything and clocks out at 1:23:33) is basically 12 minutes of theory covering the entire swing , a few drills, the vast majority of which aren't even demonstrated fully (the towel never falls out when he says "if you do this, the towel will fall out), and then some fluff with his Tour players and things where they throw out stuff like "I'm a feel player, so what I like about Sean is that he can tell me a feeling that gets me to do the same thing he wants Hunter to do while he's having a different feeling..." (paraphrased). Who cares? He's not giving different viewers of his video different feels, so leave stuff like that out. Stop selling.
Golfers are never given any checkpoints. Big words are used right alongside generic words like "body." The big words are almost never defined, which will confuse many people. Sean talks about the "arcs" and "circles" but never really says where they go or how we stay on them or why it's important to. Sean seemingly contradicts himself repeatedly. For example, he wants the clubhead to start, then then the arms, then the torso, and then the hips, and then he talks about the "connection" you should have in your takeaway without ever defining PP4 or PP5. In fact one of the direct quotes is "What this is going to do is, in continuance of making sure that the club, the clubhead, the arms, the torso, and the hips move together..." - right after he told you that they all start at different times...
He talks about "tilts" but never defines them (this is where he uses the term "body" instead of, I don't know, "spine"? I'd even take "shoulders" as in "tilt your left shoulder down more"). Why not add in a direction (tilt "left" or "towards the golf ball")? He uses words like "anterior tilt" when talking about your hips at setup and "innervation of the muscles," and then later on uses the word "body"? He tells you to keep your head steady, but then doesn't tell the viewer HOW to keep your head steady.
You get two tips on putting and a few short game tips. Let's call that stuff what it is: fluff.
The video feels like it was shot in one day and almost nothing was edited. The first take was good and the guys said "we'll make you sound coherent in post!" Then they add a few squiggly little lines or circles and call it "wonderful production" and "awesome graphics." Heck, in one slow-motion video Sean is a dimple or two away from cold topping the ball!
Some direct quotes from the video:
On the takeaway, the club should be "slightly vertical, and slightly diagonal." "A drill we have to go along with the takeaway is basically what you need to do is grab a stick or a pencil or anything like that..." He demonstrates that the shaft is pointing well inside the ball and says that this is on plane.
He says the word "obviously" about 100 times. If something is that obvious, you don't need the word "obviously."
One of my favorites: "As we move into the top of the swing what we're looking at is continuing from the takeaway is making sure and ensuring that the body and arms are doing the correct thing to work in connection with each other in collaboration with each other."
"[What you do] at this point is you have to ensure at this point..."
"The arms drop vertically onto the shaft plane" - He'll never define or illustrate the shaft plane and this is thrown out there as a one-off.
"This brings us to impact, or the moment of truth as it's more popularly called." I'm pretty sure the more popular term is "impact." Even "P7" (with a P) is probably more popular. Is this an egregious error? No, but it's something you catch if you're editing a script down, and issues like this litter the entire disc.
Two of my favorites come about a minute apart:
"As in the rest of the swing, we're trying to get the club to swing on the arc or perpendicular to it, which is in a circle that is working around us."
"[It's] going to prepare us that we're not going to get into over-use injury and end up having to go to rehab."
Those quotes remind me of this:
Here's what I wrote about Lesson 5, The Downswing:
- Because we're ready for it and we've learned so much. We've yet to get a single checkpoint. Not a single "the club should be here, the hands should be here, if we film from here we'll see this..." I take that back, we have two: the shaft should be "slightly vertical" and "slightly diagonal" and the head should still be centered. The shoulder should be down, but we don't know how much, and our body should tilt, but again where and how and how much, we don't know.
I think that if you know the golf swing pretty well you can skate by and kinda "get" what he's trying to say, but if you don't you're out of luck.
Like I said, the whole thing feels rushed. You simply can't cover the entire golf swing, your entire methodology, in the time Sean does, even if you throw in a few campy drills, some "show it/prove it," and flop shots, putting, etc.
In this list below the * represent the "wholest" tracks, the "play all" tracks... For others, they're broken apart as you would imagine. For Lesson 2 for example, the 5:24 track is the lesson and the drills. Then the next three tracks are 2:12 just the lesson, 1:29 just drill 1, and 1:42 just drill 2.
1:31 * Disc Intro
1:42 * Introduction
33:14 * Lessons (All)
2:11 - Lesson 1 - Ball Flight
5:24 - Lesson 2 with Drills
2:12 - Lesson 2 - Reaction Position
1:29 - Lesson 2 - Drill #1
1:42 - Lesson 2 - Drill #2
5:10 - Lesson 3 with Drills
2:33 - Lesson 3 - Takeaway
1:33 - Lesson 3 - Drill #1
4:16 - Lesson 4 with Drills
2:34 - Lesson 4 - Top of Swing
1:41 - Lesson 4 - Drill #1
5:18 - Lesson 5 with Drills
2:06 - Lesson 5 - Downswing
1:35 - Lesson 5 - Drill #1
1:36 - Lesson 5 - Drill #2
5:21 - Lesson 6 with Drills
2:26 - Lesson 6 - Impact
1:41 - Lesson 6 - Drill #1
1:13 - Lesson 6 - Drill #2
5:34 - Lesson 7 with Drills
1:54 - Lesson 7 - Exit Strategy
1:53 - Lesson 7 - Drill #1
1:45 - Lesson 7 - Drill #2
1:02 - Lesson 3 - Drill #2
26:18 * Bonus Drills
1:34 - Bonus Drill 1 - Cadence
1:45 - Bonus Drill 2 - One Foot
1:10 - Bonus Drill 3 - Left Arm Only
1:37 - Bonus Drill 4 - Right Arm Only
2:09 - Bonus Drill 5 - Downhill
1:23 - Bonus Drill 6 - Sequence
2:11 - Bonus Drill 7 - How to Practice
1:53 - Bonus Drill 8 - The Driver
2:24 - Bonus Drill 9 - Chipping Setup
1:17 - Bonus Drill 10 - Left Hand Only
1:52 - Bonus Drill 11 - Wedge System
1:49 - Bonus Drill 12 - The Flop
1:19 - Bonus Drill 13 - Utility Chip
1:55 - Bonus Drill 14 - Path Drill
1:55 - Bonus Drill 15 - Speed Drill
17:54 * Team Foley
6:32 - Team Foley (Mahan + S/P)
5:19 - Team Foley (O'Hair + S/P)
6:03 - Team Foley (Ames + S/P)
2:17 - Team Foley (Mahan)
4:15 - Team Foley (Mahan S/P)
2:25 - Team Foley (O'Hair)
2:54 - Team Foley (O'Hair S/P)
2:50 - Team Foley (Ames)
3:11 - Team Foley (Ames S/P)
0:40 * Sean Foley in Five Words
2:12 * Closing
In other words, he shares his entire philosophy on the entire golf swing in these segments (I'm including "Ball Flight" only because he calls it Lesson 1):
2:11 - Lesson 1 - Ball Flight
2:12 - Lesson 2 - Reaction Position
2:33 - Lesson 3 - Takeaway
2:34 - Lesson 4 - Top of Swing
2:06 - Lesson 5 - Downswing
2:26 - Lesson 6 - Impact
1:54 - Lesson 7 - Exit Strategy
That's 13:45 of actual instruction.
I'd gladly pay $50 for 13:45 of good instruction, and I'd encourage others to spend the money too, but this ain't that.
Wait, I just realized something. Maybe I missed the word "Outtakes" on the DVD, and the Blu-Ray disc is the one that contains the actual video. That must be it...

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I've published my full review here: http://thesandtrap.com/b/training/next_generation_with_sean_foley_dvd_review .

Please take a moment to comment on the review (at the bottom in the comments section). Thanks.

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I ordered my DVD on Wednesday evening, and got the shipping email today.  They must have stocked up by now.  I'm looking forward to this.  I like what what I've seen from Foley online and the Golf Channel.

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My DVD was ordered almost two weeks ago, and I still don't have it.  The FedEx tracking number I got with my order stated that it would be delivered yesterday, yet I get home and there's no package.  I again check the tracking information, and it states it was delivered at 2:45pm and left at the front door.  I looked all around in case it was bumped off the porch or something, but it was nowhere to be found.


I sent an email to the company asking what to do now.  I'm guessing they either sent me a bogus tracking number, or that FedEx screwed it up somehow.  I've never had that happen before.  UGH!

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I ordered the DVD on December 29th and received it less than a week later. I'm enjoing the content. There is no fluff or time filling chat and all instruction seems clear and concise.

As opposed to some here who thinks we, the unwashed who are not professional golf instructors, may not understand the various nuances or unstated intructions, I understood every word.

As an aside, I don't think instuctors should review the works of their fellow instructors. I could be wrong but I've never heard Haney, Harmon, Flick et al critique one another or their work. Personal feelings are inescapable (we're only human) and when a "leader" speaks, group think may follow. (emphazise "may")

I couldn't care less whether someone tilts toward to the SnT school, A's method, B's method, Foley's method etc. It's just a golf swing. We're all built differently and what works for one may not work for another. That's why I'm opposed to instuction "methods". I've had much more success going to the practise range and sorting out my own swing as opposed to fitting into someone else's pattern

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion so please accept it as such.

Mick

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Has anyone seen both the Golf Digest Young Instructors Series with Sean Foley and this "Next Generation" DVD with Foley -- and can compare and contrast.

I received the book -- The Stack and Tilt Swing -- about a week after I ordered it on amazon ($13 w shipping) and on first browse -- it looks great.

But am wondering about the comparison above... Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Mick

I ordered the DVD on December 29th and received it less than a week later. I'm enjoing the content. There is no fluff or time filling chat and all instruction seems clear and concise.

As opposed to some here who thinks we, the unwashed who are not professional golf instructors, may not understand the various nuances or unstated intructions, I understood every word.

As an aside, I don't think instuctors should review the works of their fellow instructors. I could be wrong but I've never heard Haney, Harmon, Flick et al critique one another or their work. Personal feelings are inescapable (we're only human) and when a "leader" speaks, group think may follow. (emphazise "may")

I couldn't care less whether someone tilts toward to the SnT school, A's method, B's method, Foley's method etc. It's just a golf swing. We're all built differently and what works for one may not work for another. That's why I'm opposed to instuction "methods". I've had much more success going to the practise range and sorting out my own swing as opposed to fitting into someone else's pattern

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion so please accept it as such.

Mick



To me its like this, I understand the theory of a car engine, but if you pulled one apart and then asked me to put it together I would be rather lost. Thats essentially what Foley did. He gave the vaguest and most basic view of what he teaches. The confusion doesn't come in understanding those points, but rather in the implementation of those points.

IE: Keeping the head still. Foley did this in the DVD and on TGC. He says to keep your head still, but doesn't explain how to do that. One might think, "how hard can that be... he doesn't need to explain that." Well then why did we see Foley teaching Tiger how to when they first started working together? If Tiger needs the explanation, I think it seems logical to give some kind of explanation to the masses.

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Originally Posted by Mick

As opposed to some here who thinks we, the unwashed who are not professional golf instructors, may not understand the various nuances or unstated intructions, I understood every word.


What about the parts Foley got wrong, like posterior and anterior tilt? When Foley said "keep your head still," can you tell us how you do that? How about "tilt your body"? What part of your body do you tilt? In which direction do you tilt it?

I think that there's a difference between "understanding every word" and understanding the message.

Originally Posted by Mick

As an aside, I don't think instuctors should review the works of their fellow instructors. I could be wrong but I've never heard Haney, Harmon, Flick et al critique one another or their work. Personal feelings are inescapable (we're only human) and when a "leader" speaks, group think may follow. (emphazise "may")

Haney, etc. criticize each other all the time. You may not see it or know about it, but consider the fact that they were allowed to (attempt to) "refute" Stack and Tilt in Golf Digest.

I think criticism can be healthy. I'm always looking to have my understanding challenged. I never want to give up being a "student" of the game. I don't think "I've got it" and as Sean said in the video he doesn't necessarily know what's right but he knows what's wrong. I feel the same way. (That was, to me, one of the high points of the video, but it was kind of an instructor-to-instructor moment that might have little bearing on a student's perception of the DVD).

As for people who "may" follow me, I hope that rational people will read my opinion, weigh them with all the other points of view they've considered, and ultimately arrive at a conclusion unique to them. If they disagree with me, I want to hear why. I'm glad you've posted here. I can ask you why.

Originally Posted by Mick

I've had much more success going to the practise range and sorting out my own swing as opposed to fitting into someone else's pattern.

More power to you. It sounds like you've been forced into some things you didn't like in the past. I felt similarly to you a few years ago. But - and obviously I can't speak for all instructors - I never push everyone into a specific, rigid pattern. Our students don't all look alike.

But in the end, they do fit SOME loosely defined pattern, simply because geometry doesn't change for each person. Physics, geometry, ball flight laws... they're all the same for everyone. So everyone teaches some pattern or another.

Originally Posted by Mick

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion so please accept it as such.

Will do. Or are you just sticking up for your fellow countryman Sean? I hope you got one of the autographed cards.

P.S. Please add your review to the product page for the DVD.

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Note: This thread is 2751 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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