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"Swing Machine Golf" by Paul Wilson


iacas
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8 hours ago, golfonly said:

I didn’t engage you.

Completely untrue. This whole paragraph "engages" me:

8 hours ago, golfonly said:

This thread has a lot of opinions and hyperbole stated as fact.  Clearly there is a monetary reason to steer people from one product to another.  Never trust somebody that says they have all the answers and other guys don’t know what they are talking about.

So I ask:

  • Where have I stated opinions and hyperbole as fact?
  • What monetary reason do I have for having a discussion here on the site?
  • When have I ever said I "have all the answers"?

The answers? I haven't, there really aren't any, and I've never.

8 hours ago, golfonly said:

Not pushing products?  That’s funny.

Glad you got a laugh out of it. I don’t push much product, just information. Nowhere near like many others, and I’m happy to discuss things freely and explain things in detail. Paul Wilson was asked questions and allowed and invited to participate here. He chose not to. I can respect that - but it's the truth, too.

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14 hours ago, MOODY said:

Well it doesn't take long to realize some of my errors, that is internet and browser screw ups.  

I was watching his vids in full screen going from vid to vid but I found out watching in small screen there are vids underneath.

They must have been added due to people asking questions because there is a "Set Up" video.  I now have to explore all options as the original play list has some hidden extras.

 

Best of luck on your journey.  Keep us posted on how you progress.  I think you’ll start seeing results very quickly with Paul Wilson.  

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13 hours ago, iacas said:

So I ask:

  • Where have I stated opinions and hyperbole as fact?
  • What monetary reason do I have for having a discussion here on the site?
  • When have I ever said I "have all the answers"?

The answers? I haven't, there really aren't any, and I've never.

 

41 minutes ago, golfonly said:

 I think you’ll start seeing results very quickly with Paul Wilson.  

One of the goals of nearly every instructor is to get better at teaching.  A lot of instructors say they learn something new every day.  Erik has always said that if you can provide proof of something better than what he can offer, he would take it into consideration for his own teaching (or something like that). No one is perfect; no method is perfect.  The best way for growth is to talk to those that have different views.  Too many instructors get overly defensive of what they teach.  Be humble, learn, grow. 

I heard a story that when Chris Como (pretty sure it was him) was first coming on the scenes as an instructor, he sent a video of his teaching to all the top 100 instructors for them to review and comment on.  He wants to get better.

The main goal of this site, I think, is to help golfers improve their own games.  We all want to improve/grow and like instruction, one way to do that is talk about what you do.  Be humble, learn, grow.

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46 minutes ago, phillyk said:

 

One of the goals of nearly every instructor is to get better at teaching.  A lot of instructors say they learn something new every day.  Erik has always said that if you can provide proof of something better than what he can offer, he would take it into consideration for his own teaching (or something like that). No one is perfect; no method is perfect.  The best way for growth is to talk to those that have different views.  Too many instructors get overly defensive of what they teach.  Be humble, learn, grow. 

I heard a story that when Chris Como (pretty sure it was him) was first coming on the scenes as an instructor, he sent a video of his teaching to all the top 100 instructors for them to review and comment on.  He wants to get better.

The main goal of this site, I think, is to help golfers improve their own games.  We all want to improve/grow and like instruction, one way to do that is talk about what you do.  Be humble, learn, grow.

I have not been here long, but humility is not a trait I have seen in this thread.

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28 minutes ago, golfonly said:

I have not been here long, but humility is not a trait I have seen in this thread.

Then please provide a specific example of this. I as well as @iacas stated a few points where we thought PW may not be conveying the right message/instruction and we provided our examples why. This is how a discussion works. @iacas more than welcomes anybody to discuss/critique his methods/instruction, advice. He only asks that you provide data/research to back your claims. I can’t say the same for PW. 

You’re not the first to have this sentiment. Unfortunately you’ve also jumped the gun in thinking anything other than praise and accolades for said instructor is a sign of hostility. This site is dedicated to improving people’s golf game. We are well aware of the multitude of swing advice out there. This is why the information here isn’t just thrown against the wall and hope it sticks because ‘some guy I know did real well with this advice.’ We support it with facts and research. If someone finds an error @iacas would be more than happy to discuss it. That is all we were hoping from PW and he left without giving any input.

So sorry you have this sentiment but in all honesty I think you’re taking this all wrong.

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I’ve read the thread and people have misrepresented what Paul Wilson teaches numerous times.  There is also a great deal of arrogance portrayed.  PW has had great success over the years and you can site research or science regarding professional players, but that doesn’t mean a certain method of teaching is better than his.  Real research would be to compare the results of the teachers.  However, I doubt either are going to share that type of data.

My oringial point still applies, if somebody has a financial incentive in having people do their program over another, objectivity in reviewing competitors should be questioned.

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40 minutes ago, golfonly said:

My oringial point still applies, if somebody has a financial incentive in having people do their program over another, objectivity in reviewing competitors should be questioned.

So you’re saying PW has no financial incentive? Nobody is comparing anything but you. We were discussing PW’s instruction the same way one might discuss the biochemical facts of a diet pill. 

Again you have not stated any specific examples. You’re more than welcome, in fact obligated to do so if you’re going to make accusations about someone you know nothing about. 

@iacas and others here offer free swing analysis. Free. 100%. I doubt you can send in videos to PW and he’ll analyze your swing and follow up with you for absolutely free. What’s your take on that fact regarding your baseless financial incentive?

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1 hour ago, golfonly said:

I’ve read the thread and people have misrepresented what Paul Wilson teaches numerous times.

Where? Be specific, because he hasn't.

1 hour ago, golfonly said:

There is also a great deal of arrogance portrayed.

You've been asked directly a few times to point out such an instance, and you've not done so. At this point a reasonable person would just conclude that you're making stuff up. That or you're misunderstanding the tone of voice (where there is none).

Stating what I know to be true or even believe to be accurate is not arrogance, nor is disagreeing with the best way to teach something to someone, or how often something "works" or occurs, etc.

I have a scientific background. Scientists don't care about getting "credit" per se, they simply want to get things right in the end. Scientists don't care much about someone saying "I think that's right." They care tremendously if someone says "I think that's wrong and here's why…". I state what I believe and wait for someone to say "I think that's wrong and here's why…". If the next thing they say makes sense, has merit, BAM! Instant opportunity to upgrade my knowledge. "I think you're right" doesn't provide that.

So no, you're either just making stuff up, or you've completely misunderstood a lot of the stuff here.

1 hour ago, golfonly said:

PW has had great success over the years and you can site research or science regarding professional players, but that doesn’t mean a certain method of teaching is better than his.

By that statement you've misunderstood virtually all of what's been posted here. You've likely just read everything written with the conclusion already locked and loaded. You've read everything through tinted lenses.

For the most part, I've talked about how the arms contribute to the golf swing. Feel ain't real, and when discussing things ONLINE and not with a particular student, in front of you looking to learn, you can only really talk about what's "real" because you have no way of knowing what someone will FEEL like they're doing. I don't doubt that Paul Wilson "feels" like he doesn't use his arms, that they're "effortless." But in reality, that's complete BS. And that's a fact. Yet you probably ascribe "arrogance" to that, when there is none, just as there is no arrogance in saying 2 + 2 = 4.

Look at the Member Swing topics of the guys I teach. It's all feels. Read the "Everyone is a Feel Player" topic. Etc. I teach all feels (understanding the mechanics). That's how people "work."

But it's not how online discussions can work, because feel is different for everyone.

1 hour ago, golfonly said:

My oringial point still applies, if somebody has a financial incentive in having people do their program over another, objectivity in reviewing competitors should be questioned.

What financial gain do I have in @MOODY doing my program? I haven't done a thing to try to make him a student of mine and to ditch Paul Wilson. I haven't done that to ANYONE in this topic.

At this point, @golfonly, cite specifics or stop posting.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

So you’re saying PW has no financial incentive? Nobody is comparing anything but you. We were discussing PW’s instruction the same way one might discuss the biochemical facts of a diet pill. 

Again you have not stated any specific examples. You’re more than welcome, in fact obligated to do so if you’re going to make accusations about someone you know nothing about. 

@iacas and others here offer free swing analysis. Free. 100%. I doubt you can send in videos to PW and he’ll analyze your swing and follow up with you for absolutely free. What’s your take on that fact regarding your baseless financial incentive?

Paul Wilson himself pointed out where he has been misrepresented.  I don’t need to repost those as they are clear for you to see.  Reread what he has posted and responded to people that did not understand his teaching.  The financial incentive is very clear, this entire site is a billboard for the cute little keys.

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53 minutes ago, golfonly said:

Paul Wilson himself pointed out where he has been misrepresented.  I don’t need to repost those as they are clear for you to see.  Reread what he has posted and responded to people that did not understand his teaching.  The financial incentive is very clear, this entire site is a billboard for the cute little keys.

There is nothing arrogant here. @iacas is trying to engage in a discussion about golf instruction. PW keeps using the term ‘bashing.’ We were only asking him to explain his teachings by supportive evidence other than ‘I’ve sold a lot of DVDs.’ It’s just golf which is portrayed by your member name @golfonly. No one is telling PW he’s a fraud or attacking his character. This topic is to discuss what is being taught by PW. Apparently unless you agree with PW then the discussion is closed.

 If you’d like you can read the 5SK section and if you don’t agree with those ‘cute little keys’ then post in that thread and explain why you think the five simple keys are wrong. 

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52 minutes ago, golfonly said:

Paul Wilson himself pointed out where he has been misrepresented.  I don’t need to repost those as they are clear for you to see.

No he didn't.

  • He made a few posts in 2012 and 2013. Most of the 2012 posts were talking about fixing the face by rolling the hands over aggressively to fix a slice, and then trying to fix the path after that. IIRC. If you're talking about 2013, you really should quote something, because… that was a long time ago.
  • In 2013, Paul also talked about how his swing is based on Iron Byron. I pointed out several times that Iron Byron could be programmed to drive a ball 350 yards without even hinging its mechanical wrists, and how basing a human swing on a machine with essentially two pivot points (the "shoulders" and the "wrist" hinging) - with no hips, elbows, knees, ankles, etc. - struck me as pretty silly. Paul insisted, despite ample evidence, that only rotating on the downswing pushes the weight forward, when that's not at all what we actually see from the game's best players.
  • Paul responded twice in 2018. Once was a post to say "this is for all the doubters" and posted a video promoting his golf swing again. Which is fine, but takes away from your claim that I'm the one promoting stuff; I've let HIM promote HIS stuff on a site I built and have invested tens of thousands of dollars and hours into. The second post he made completely misrepresented my post, which was factual, with "so you think my swing looks fast"? (first: https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/42960-swing-machine-golf-by-paul-wilson/?do=findComment&comment=1360240, second: https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic/42960-swing-machine-golf-by-paul-wilson/?do=findComment&comment=1360252).

In other words, no, he didn't. Unless you want to go back to 2012/2013, in which case most of his responses were to Joe or the "JD" person.

So, nope.

1 hour ago, golfonly said:

The financial incentive is very clear, this entire site is a billboard for the cute little keys.

Uhhhh, no, it's not. And how am I making money from the information about the 5SK®, exactly? Is it by somehow giving almost all of the information away for free? For a system that applies to ANY good instructor's lessons?

No.

So cut the crap. You came on here - or at least into this topic - carrying some sort of grudge or something. Get over it or get off the site. I don't much care which, but rather than having an open mind you're closed off to information and attempting to pick fights. I know me, I know what I've posted, and I'll stand by the latest version of all of it… unless you can show me where something is wrong, and I have an instant opportunity to upgrade my knowledge base. You've not done so. Not in the slightest.

None of this is on topic, so this ends here. If you want to complain, send a PM, but be specific. Because your general commentary is not only unfounded, it's untrue.

22 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

 If you’d like you can read the 5SK section and if you don’t agree with those ‘cute little keys’ then post in that thread and explain why you think the five simple keys are wrong. 

Yep. @Vinsk gets it. I have no pride here - I can only state what I think is correct. If someone shows me how it's not, BAM, instant opportunity to upgrade my knowledge.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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15 minutes ago, golfonly said:

Bringing things back to topic, he has a beautiful effortless swing.

Yes. So effortless it literally takes his breath away.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well my first report on this method.  I have one round in the book but I guess it really should not have counted.  Here it goes anyway.

May 13th was the day, my back had pretty much gone out two weeks before this but not bad enough that I could not do some of Mr. Wilson's drills a week before my tee day.  I could practice his positions in his training method using a slow swing.  He encourages you to do this in his method until you totally get the swing.  Sounds great.

 The weather was finally nice enough and I could swing, I mulled it over to go or not but I was only going to swing at 50% anyway as he suggested.  The first few rounds you just try to hit his positions that he teaches, basically coasting.  Hit some solid shots  by sometimes clubbing up 2 irons  but then only 1, maybe I was cheating and going after it 75% sometimes.  Life was good.

42 front, 52 back.  Score was ugly but most of it was short game and putting on the front nine.  I hit 6 of 9 greens, three putted 4 of them for bogey then disaster.  On nine, a par 5 my lower back went out again due to a horrible swing, kind of a mix of his method and my old method.  Pain set in and double.  I limped the last nine, couldn't make a put and just basically drank beer and enjoyed the nice weather.

Rested up a few days, used the hot tub a ton and started his swing training again.  Just got back in from the range and now I am struggling to get this swing.  Hit some really nice shots but mostly crappy thin or chunk shots that really had me questioning "Is this really worth it?".  Then a shot clicked, wow I can do this so I got more balls but after ten or twenty balls it just went back to struggling to not hit it fat or thin.

Was the first round just because I had no expectations and just coasted?  Could be.

It is not a magic bullet so do not fall for the marketing.  This is really going to take some work and I am committed for this year so I will keep you all posted on the progress.  One plus about this is that I can do this swing with no lower back pain if I stay centered.  He teaches a tilt but that is what got me before with the lower back.  Hopefully I will be able to report some great progress soon.

Next round I will definitely worry about my putting and chipping more as those two facets of my game kill me or make me look like a pro way too often. 

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1 hour ago, MOODY said:

Well my first report on this method.  I have one round in the book but I guess it really should not have counted.  Here it goes anyway.

May 13th was the day, my back had pretty much gone out two weeks before this but not bad enough that I could not do some of Mr. Wilson's drills a week before my tee day.  I could practice his positions in his training method using a slow swing.  He encourages you to do this in his method until you totally get the swing.  Sounds great.

 The weather was finally nice enough and I could swing, I mulled it over to go or not but I was only going to swing at 50% anyway as he suggested.  The first few rounds you just try to hit his positions that he teaches, basically coasting.  Hit some solid shots  by sometimes clubbing up 2 irons  but then only 1, maybe I was cheating and going after it 75% sometimes.  Life was good.

42 front, 52 back.  Score was ugly but most of it was short game and putting on the front nine.  I hit 6 of 9 greens, three putted 4 of them for bogey then disaster.  On nine, a par 5 my lower back went out again due to a horrible swing, kind of a mix of his method and my old method.  Pain set in and double.  I limped the last nine, couldn't make a put and just basically drank beer and enjoyed the nice weather.

Rested up a few days, used the hot tub a ton and started his swing training again.  Just got back in from the range and now I am struggling to get this swing.  Hit some really nice shots but mostly crappy thin or chunk shots that really had me questioning "Is this really worth it?".  Then a shot clicked, wow I can do this so I got more balls but after ten or twenty balls it just went back to struggling to not hit it fat or thin.

Was the first round just because I had no expectations and just coasted?  Could be.

It is not a magic bullet so do not fall for the marketing.  This is really going to take some work and I am committed for this year so I will keep you all posted on the progress.  One plus about this is that I can do this swing with no lower back pain if I stay centered.  He teaches a tilt but that is what got me before with the lower back.  Hopefully I will be able to report some great progress soon.

Next round I will definitely worry about my putting and chipping more as those two facets of my game kill me or make me look like a pro way too often. 

It will take some time.  He mentions that after people start his method they start playing pretty poorly initially.  This is because it is completely opposite from what you have been likely been doing.  Keep at it, I think you will see some significant results.  If you have his book look into the sections of what type of shot your hitting that is frustrating you (fat, thin, hook) and it will break down the part of his method that focuses on that problem.  Also, use a mirror or video as much as you can so you can get a good look at whether or not you are in the right spots at each part of the swing.  

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golfonly,  the thing that I am worried about is the body turn.  Bad lower backs usually do not want to twist about, it hurts and can put you out of work.  

Besides the back issue, I just cannot seem to speed up my hip turn at all so why even bother.  Like I said above, I will keep it up until Jan 2020, minimum.

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On 5/23/2019 at 4:21 PM, MOODY said:

golfonly,  the thing that I am worried about is the body turn.  Bad lower backs usually do not want to twist about, it hurts and can put you out of work.  

Besides the back issue, I just cannot seem to speed up my hip turn at all so why even bother.  Like I said above, I will keep it up until Jan 2020, minimum.

I've dealt with back issues in the past as well, and there will be some pressure on your back.  The key is coiling until you feel pressure and that may be uncomfortable.  I don't think it will be worse for your back than any other swing. 

Make sure that the majority if your weight is on your right instep at the top of the backswing.  I prefer my trigger point to be pushing off my right foot and not just turning.  This I believe creates more speed.  Then make sure you finish with your legs together.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I would advise not to listen to anything that Paul Wilson teaches.  I lost respect for his teachings when he claimed to drive the ball 320 (which looked like it was 300 at most) without using a launch monitor and saying that a strong grip is wrong.  You can google those videos.  He has a lot of doubters.  And when you have to start your comments with "For all you doubters...", that's bad. 

And for everyone that benefits from his teaching, all I can say is that doing anything different from what you do now always has a chance to improve.  What matters is consistency and longevity.  I would rather watch teachings from the PGA players than the club pros. 

If there's anyone online I would listen to, it would be Clay Ballard.

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