Should Viewers Be Able to Call in Rules Violations

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Kudos to the self-important person who called in. You just cost him how much money in this limited field event with no cut?

He cost himself the money by signing the incorrect scorecard.  These guys make a living playing golf... if it was me making a living doing it I'd make damn sure that I knew the rules and followed them.  I have no problem with people calling in a rules violation, in the end all that matters is that the right call is made.  Would it have been fair for Camillo to get away with it and "cost" the person finishing just below him more money?

[walk18]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

you guys need a drink, or a girl or a different job or something...7 pages on a simple rule violation, in a tourney that doesn't matter to a golfer who didn't give a damn that he was DQ'ed...wow.

What else am I going to do? There's a foot of snow outside right now. Although I do have the girl and the drink as well..

[CR13]

I don't think that's a good idea....just one guys opinion.

Golf seems to have a karma attached to it as well. Cheaters are punished with missed putts and shanks...

[The Recreational Golfer]

1. Most sports are played in a contained area with a referee supervising an area effectively as large as your back yard. Golf is played over a 150-acre lot. Until golf sends a rules official out with every group, the sport needs all the eyes it can get.

2. What does it say about the integrity of the sport when a large number of viewers see a patent rules violation that goes by without penalty? The Monday e-mail edition of Golf World had an article about three guys in Florida who phoned it in. One of the pros at my local golf center phoned it in, too. It was noticed widely, it can't be let go.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by dhanson

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

That is funny and i plead guilty!! i do think golf has some stupid rules and i do think the enforcement policy is silly...no other sport has people calling in to report an infraction after the fact...i would buy an arguement that each group could have a "ref" to observe while the round is taking place.

i think this has been touched on prior, but:

other sports have secondary mechanisms in place to review calls on their field. football has booth reviews, tennis has ball trackers which help determine whether a ball was in or out, and baseball SHOULD have some sort of review system. people calling in seems like an equivalent for golf.

Sorry I just disagree with the the delay. one event changes how the next event happens. I don't have an issue with a penalty being called, it just has to happen at the the time of the occurance. to do it later in the day or the next morning is in my opinion stupid...it is a game played in real time and the next shot or the next hole can be altered in how it is played by the previous shot. granted this would be a bigger deal on the back 9 Sunday at Aguasta or in a matcn play event but you get the drift.

No sport, none, does an after the fact review / change of call for anything once the next pitch, snap, face-off, serve or anything else happens - it is over.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by shades9323

When does the "close of competition" usually happen?  Does it happen on Sunday shortly after the tournament is over?  Or is it Monday?

From the Rules of Golf:

b. Stroke Play

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

When is the result officially announced?  Is it "announced" when the last score card is signed and turned in?  Or hours after? Or a day after?

[tws1098]

Add another vote to "no"  unless the player is notified before he signs his card.  It is bull that someone can be DQ'd for an infraction that was seen and called in during or after the round but the player was never notified.  The rules most of these guys get called out on are often insignificant (yes I know they are rules none the less) and the player doesn't even think about it being an infraction.

Viewers aren't officials. Officials are a part of the game and are human, mistakes are made. If integrity is the issue, then players should have enough of it to call an infraction on themselves.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by tws1098

Viewers aren't officials. Officials are a part of the game and are human, mistakes are made. If integrity is the issue, then players should have enough of it to call an infraction on themselves.

The logic some of you "no" voters is as illogical as it gets.

"If integrity is the issue, players should call penalties on themselves, but if they don't, then they should get away with it because viewers aren't officials."

Come again?

I guess I've said all I can say on this. I don't understand kids these days. Rules is rules.

[tws1098]

Originally Posted by Phil McGlenno

Quote:

Originally Posted by tws1098

Viewers aren't officials. Officials are a part of the game and are human, mistakes are made. If integrity is the issue, then players should have enough of it to call an infraction on themselves.

The logic some of you "no" voters is as illogical as it gets.

"If integrity is the issue, players should call penalties on themselves, but if they don't, then they should get away with it because viewers aren't officials."

Come again?

I guess I've said all I can say on this. I don't understand kids these days. Rules is rules.

1st it is an opinion, which last I checked is not right or wrong, it is simply my opinion. What is illogical to you is your opinion.

Golf is also a game of tradition, yet this has been an issue since when? Were viewers calling out Jack or Arnold? Or did they just not make rules infractions or own a telephone?

"In ethics, integrity is regarded as the quality of having an intuitive sense of honesty and truthfullness in regard to the motivations for one's actions"

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by shades9323

When does the "close of competition" usually happen?  Does it happen on Sunday shortly after the tournament is over?  Or is it Monday?

From the Rules of Golf:

b. Stroke Play

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

When is the result officially announced?  Is it "announced" when the last score card is signed and turned in?  Or hours after? Or a day after?

Surely you can figure out what is meant by the announcing of the results?  It means the the order of finish after the end of the final has been posted and announced to the players by the competition committee (not by the TV crew).  That is why they never award the trophy before the final card is returned, even when the leader is in in the clubhouse and his score in unreachable by anyone still playing.  All players must be finished before the results are announced.

[NM Golf]

This discussion saddens me, I cannot believe anyone would say it's okay to get away with a breech of the rules regardless of who sees it. The fact that the guy in this instance is actually taking heat from Tour players for calling in a rule makes me want to puke. So what everyone is saying is it's not a broken rule if no one sees it? So in my next round my fellow competitors are free to break any rule they want as long as I don't catch them? That's not how golf was meant to be played. It's supposed to be better than this.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Surely you can figure out what is meant by the announcing of the results?  It means the the order of finish after the end of the final has been posted and announced to the players by the competition committee (not by the TV crew).  That is why they never award the trophy before the final card is returned, even when the leader is in in the clubhouse and his score in unreachable by anyone still playing.  All players must be finished before the results are announced.

As I do not work for the PGA tour, no I can't figure out what "official" is.  That is why I was asking the question.  So it is official when they award the trophy?

This is a purely hypothetical so bear with me.  What if only a single viewer of the broadcast at the PGA champ saw DJ ground his club.  He can't find his iPhone for 30 minutes to call it in.  He finally finds his phone and calls it in shortly after DJ is handed the trophy.  Are you cool with the fact that DJ broke a rule, signed an incorrect score card, and still won the tournament because the call came in after the close of competition?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by shades9323

As I do not work for the PGA tour, no I can't figure out what "official" is.  That is why I was asking the question.  So it is official when they award the trophy?

This is a purely hypothetical so bear with me.  What if only a single viewer of the broadcast at the PGA champ saw DJ ground his club.  He can't find his iPhone for 30 minutes to call it in.  He finally finds his phone and calls it in shortly after DJ is handed the trophy.  Are you cool with the fact that DJ broke a rule, signed an incorrect score card, and still won the tournament because the call came in after the close of competition?

I can't say that I would be "cool" with it, as it still points out that a professional who should know better gets away with something he shouldn't, but in that case the results would stand as long as the player was unaware that he had incurred a penalty.  Such an outcome would be correct under the rules.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by NM Golf

This discussion saddens me, I cannot believe anyone would say it's okay to get away with a breech of the rules regardless of who sees it. The fact that the guy in this instance is actually taking heat from Tour players for calling in a rule makes me want to puke. So what everyone is saying is it's not a broken rule if no one sees it? So in my next round my fellow competitors are free to break any rule they want as long as I don't catch them? That's not how golf was meant to be played. It's supposed to be better than this.

is saddens you? you must have a great life if this matter enough to sadden you. congrats.

listen i love golf, i play money and tournament golf so i do understand the feelings involved of a pressure shot, i only ask for an honest game between the rules and score posting but this whole situation is crazy. i don't believe in cheating, i do believe in a penalty if the rules are broken, i don't believe in a penalty after the fact that is called in from home a couple thousand miles away off a TV screen...I don't care if it is correct or not.

The tour has a thousand vollunteers every week. do you really believe it is to much for them to put an official with every group to keep things honest? Hell you can put one with every freakin golfer if you want to.

It is not about the rules it is about enforcement

[Dave H]

Originally Posted by NM Golf

This discussion saddens me, I cannot believe anyone would say it's okay to get away with a breech of the rules regardless of who sees it. The fact that the guy in this instance is actually taking heat from Tour players for calling in a rule makes me want to puke. So what everyone is saying is it's not a broken rule if no one sees it? So in my next round my fellow competitors are free to break any rule they want as long as I don't catch them? That's not how golf was meant to be played. It's supposed to be better than this.

I could be off base for some posters, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that rules aren't broken just because they aren't seen at the time. An infraction that wasn't noticed on a Sunday until after the official close of the tournament is still an infraction, yes? Yet, people seem to be just fine with the fact that this will not result in a DQ after the tournament is finished.

The question at hand is "should viewers be able to call in rules violations". Many people are saying no. They aren't saying that rules aren't rules. Many are saying that the comparisons to other sports aren't valid and I agree for the most part. There's a different way to look at it though. The argument is that those other sports have referees and officials who are supposed to spot infractions and make the calls. There are times they miss calls and we all see it but there's nothing we can do, it's part of the game. An infraction is still an infraction, isn't it? The only other sport I know of that retroactively enforces penalties is nascar. In golf, the referees and officials are the players. Why would we assume that they would never miss a call? It doesn't make them inferior, or without integrity, it makes them human. If a player doesn't realize it at the time, nor do his playing partners, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it was a missed call. Without proof to the contrary, I wouldn't consider it cheating. Now, if a player was informed he erred, and still chose not to penalize himself, he would prove he is without integrity and we would all know it. I personally don't think this would be an issue as I think most pro golfers have a desire to know and follow the rules. If they didn't, the game would lose credibility.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by NM Golf

This discussion saddens me, I cannot believe anyone would say it's okay to get away with a breech of the rules regardless of who sees it. The fact that the guy in this instance is actually taking heat from Tour players for calling in a rule makes me want to puke. So what everyone is saying is it's not a broken rule if no one sees it? So in my next round my fellow competitors are free to break any rule they want as long as I don't catch them? That's not how golf was meant to be played. It's supposed to be better than this.

is saddens you? you must have a great life if this matter enough to sadden you. congrats.

listen i love golf, i play money and tournament golf so i do understand the feelings involved of a pressure shot, i only ask for an honest game between the rules and score posting but this whole situation is crazy. i don't believe in cheating, i do believe in a penalty if the rules are broken, i don't believe in a penalty after the fact that is called in from home a couple thousand miles away off a TV screen...I don't care if it is correct or not.

The tour has a thousand vollunteers every week. do you really believe it is to much for them to put an official with every group to keep things honest? Hell you can put one with every freakin golfer if you want to.

It is not about the rules it is about enforcement

I am unalterably opposed to such a policy.  One of the great things about golf over all other sports is that honesty and the responsibility for playing by the rules rests with the player.  What you propose would end that forever.  Besides rules officials make mistakes too.  Having one on the spot is still no guarantee of perfection, and by doing that you destroy one of great principles of the game of golf.

[binga7]

There is no way that viewers should be allowed to officiate! Not in any sport around the world does this happen. Its the rules officials job to spot infractions. Take football for example. A viewer cant ring in and say pass interference occured in the 2nd Qtr, we want a penalty now.

[tws1098]

Originally Posted by Dave H

Quote:

Originally Posted by NM Golf

This discussion saddens me, I cannot believe anyone would say it's okay to get away with a breech of the rules regardless of who sees it. The fact that the guy in this instance is actually taking heat from Tour players for calling in a rule makes me want to puke. So what everyone is saying is it's not a broken rule if no one sees it? So in my next round my fellow competitors are free to break any rule they want as long as I don't catch them? That's not how golf was meant to be played. It's supposed to be better than this.

I could be off base for some posters, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that rules aren't broken just because they aren't seen at the time. An infraction that wasn't noticed on a Sunday until after the official close of the tournament is still an infraction, yes? Yet, people seem to be just fine with the fact that this will not result in a DQ after the tournament is finished.

The question at hand is "should viewers be able to call in rules violations". Many people are saying no. They aren't saying that rules aren't rules. Many are saying that the comparisons to other sports aren't valid and I agree for the most part. There's a different way to look at it though. The argument is that those other sports have referees and officials who are supposed to spot infractions and make the calls. There are times they miss calls and we all see it but there's nothing we can do, it's part of the game. An infraction is still an infraction, isn't it? The only other sport I know of that retroactively enforces penalties is nascar. In golf, the referees and officials are the players. Why would we assume that they would never miss a call? It doesn't make them inferior, or without integrity, it makes them human. If a player doesn't realize it at the time, nor do his playing partners, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it was a missed call. Without proof to the contrary, I wouldn't consider it cheating. Now, if a player was informed he erred, and still chose not to penalize himself, he would prove he is without integrity and we would all know it. I personally don't think this would be an issue as I think most pro golfers have a desire to know and follow the rules. If they didn't, the game would lose credibility.

+1 this is more along the lines of what I was thinking in my above post but didn't know how to get it across. Well put.