Should Viewers Be Able to Call in Rules Violations

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by binga7

There is no way that viewers should be allowed to officiate! Not in any sport around the world does this happen. Its the rules officials job to spot infractions. Take football for example. A viewer cant ring in and say pass interference occured in the 2nd Qtr, we want a penalty now.

Try reading the whole thread before you post something which has already been shot down.  This isn't the NFL.  It is NOT any officials job to spot rules infractions.  It is the player's responsibility to know and play by the rules.  If he fails in his responsibility, then the committee can accept input from any other source to assist them in determining the facts.  The viewer did not "officiate".  All he did was tweet his concern over what appeared to be a rules breach.  The committee reviewed the tape and assessed the penalty.

[max power]

Viewers aren't officiating.  They don't make any kind of call or decision.  Good job bringing up football for the 25th time in this thread.

Originally Posted by binga7

There is no way that viewers should be allowed to officiate! Not in any sport around the world does this happen. Its the rules officials job to spot infractions. Take football for example. A viewer cant ring in and say pass interference occured in the 2nd Qtr, we want a penalty now.

[walk18]

I would like to add one more thing. Just because some people here say they have "shot down" comparisons between golf and other sports, that doesn't mean nobody can mention it again. There must be a reason we keep hearing it (besides people not reading the thread). The differences between the sports have been stated, but many obviously feel there are lots of similarities as well.

And some people maybe didn't have time to read the whole thread but wanted to add their opinions. Their responses are just as valid as the first ones.

[The Recreational Golfer]

The question at hand is "should viewers be able to call in rules violations". Many people are saying no. They aren't saying that rules aren't rules. Many are saying that the comparisons to other sports aren't valid and I agree for the most part. There's a different way to look at it though. The argument is that those other sports have referees and officials who are supposed to spot infractions and make the calls. There are times they miss calls and we all see it but there's nothing we can do, it's part of the game. An infraction is still an infraction, isn't it? The only other sport I know of that retroactively enforces penalties is nascar.

In golf, the referees and officials are the players. Why would we assume that they would never miss a call? It doesn't make them inferior, or without integrity, it makes them human. If a player doesn't realize it at the time, nor do his playing partners, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it was a missed call. Without proof to the contrary, I wouldn't consider it cheating. Now, if a player was informed he erred, and still chose not to penalize himself, he would prove he is without integrity and we would all know it. I personally don't think this would be an issue as I think most pro golfers have a desire to know and follow the rules. If they didn't, the game would lose credibility.

Let me respond to the second part of this quote. If we expect the players to be the referees, then we should expect them to know the rules. How could it be otherwise? The sad thing is, they don't know the rules. We could ask if they even care to. I would not answer an unequivocal yes.

In the current Golfweek magazine, Rocco Mediate is quoted as putting players at 5 on a scale of 1 to 10 regarding knowing the rules, "and that's being nice," he said. Bubba Watson, who was in Villegas's group, said, "I probably wouldn't have known that rule, either."

The question is, where do you draw the line between cheating and ignorance? The answer to me, is you don't draw the line. There is no line. When a rule is broken, and no penalty is taken at the time, it must be assigned retroactively if the violation becomes known. In that way, the specter of cheating never comes up.

Now there can't be a camera on every group, and the only players who will come under such scrutiny in the early rounds are the better-known players, and in the later rounds, the leaders. That means that about 80 percent of the field plays out of view of anyone except themselves and the gallery following them, most of whom are ignorant of the rules and too far removed from the action to notice a violation anyway.

So it comes down to the players to make sure the game is played honestly and correctly. Players who know less about the rules than lot of guys in my men's club. Players at the highest level of competition in the world who have only a nodding acquaintance with the rules. I mean, I couldn't quote you Rule 23-1, but I do know enough that you don't do ANYTHING while your ball is moving. Why doesn't a professional golfer know AT LEAST that much?

Of course a violation should be phoned in if it is noticed. One golfer suffers if it does, but the entire sport suffers if it does not.

The problem has an easy solution. Learn the rules. Attend a USGA rules seminar. Even make a rules test part of getting your card at Q school. (Good luck with that one.) There's an advantage to knowing the rules, as they are meant to help you as well as keep the game honest. Arnold Palmer had a firm grasp of the rules, that helped him win several tournaments, including the Masters in 1958 or 1960, I forget which, when he beat Ken Venturi because of a free drop he thought he was entitled to (he was), but would not have taken had he not read the rules sheet handed to the players that week.

Quite frankly, I would be embarrassed to be a world class player as be as ignorant as some of these guys are about the rules of my game, but that's just me.

[ERC7.5]

Was just talking golf to a friend and he mentioned an incident where Craig Stadler used a towel to kneel on and was penalized/disqualified. I decided to look it up just to check it out and it appears that this incident with people calling rules violations in isn't a first.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,963732-2,00.html

Quote:

While Stadler was persevering to a second-place finish worth $37,333.33, TV replayed his arboreal adventure. The switchboard, as they say, lit up.....

Alerted by the whistle blowers, P.G.A. tour officials penalized Stadler two strokes for innocently "building a stance" with his flat towel and then disqualified him entirely because the scorecard he had signed the day before was now incorrect.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,963732-2,00.html#ixzz1BDm2kFNu

I thought this comment was pretty funny...

Quote:

Almost no amateur golfers play by the rules. They have come to an accommodation with themselves and one another to bump the ball in the fairways or nonchalant it on the greens. The game most of them play combines croquet with tiddledywinks. But they know the rules.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,963732-2,00.html#ixzz1BDmUkI6k

[neophytea]

Should a person who wins the tournament if the rules are followed, be denied the win.

Would you want to accept the trophy for winning a tournament if everyone you knew were going to call you a cheater?

I will always try to play by the rules, but if I fall short of success.   I never want to be labeled a thief or cheater who stole the championship from another.  Bring on the wise counsel who will help protect my honor and the honor of the game of golf.

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

Quote:

Originally Posted by NM Golf

This discussion saddens me, I cannot believe anyone would say it's okay to get away with a breech of the rules regardless of who sees it. The fact that the guy in this instance is actually taking heat from Tour players for calling in a rule makes me want to puke. So what everyone is saying is it's not a broken rule if no one sees it? So in my next round my fellow competitors are free to break any rule they want as long as I don't catch them? That's not how golf was meant to be played. It's supposed to be better than this.

is saddens you? you must have a great life if this matter enough to sadden you. congrats.

listen i love golf, i play money and tournament golf so i do understand the feelings involved of a pressure shot, i only ask for an honest game between the rules and score posting but this whole situation is crazy. i don't believe in cheating, i do believe in a penalty if the rules are broken, i don't believe in a penalty after the fact that is called in from home a couple thousand miles away off a TV screen...I don't care if it is correct or not.

The tour has a thousand vollunteers every week. do you really believe it is to much for them to put an official with every group to keep things honest? Hell you can put one with every freakin golfer if you want to.

It is not about the rules it is about enforcement

Golf isn't about having referees that is what makes it so great. This saddens me because obviously people truly believe it is okay to be ignorant about the rules and get away with it. But its not okay for some guy who actually does know the rule to tweet abut it when he sees an infraction? That is assinine and ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Dave H

Quote:

Originally Posted by NM Golf

This discussion saddens me, I cannot believe anyone would say it's okay to get away with a breech of the rules regardless of who sees it. The fact that the guy in this instance is actually taking heat from Tour players for calling in a rule makes me want to puke. So what everyone is saying is it's not a broken rule if no one sees it? So in my next round my fellow competitors are free to break any rule they want as long as I don't catch them? That's not how golf was meant to be played. It's supposed to be better than this.

I could be off base for some posters, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that rules aren't broken just because they aren't seen at the time. An infraction that wasn't noticed on a Sunday until after the official close of the tournament is still an infraction, yes? Yet, people seem to be just fine with the fact that this will not result in a DQ after the tournament is finished.

The question at hand is "should viewers be able to call in rules violations". Many people are saying no. They aren't saying that rules aren't rules. Many are saying that the comparisons to other sports aren't valid and I agree for the most part. There's a different way to look at it though. The argument is that those other sports have referees and officials who are supposed to spot infractions and make the calls. There are times they miss calls and we all see it but there's nothing we can do, it's part of the game. An infraction is still an infraction, isn't it? The only other sport I know of that retroactively enforces penalties is nascar. In golf, the referees and officials are the players. Why would we assume that they would never miss a call? It doesn't make them inferior, or without integrity, it makes them human. If a player doesn't realize it at the time, nor do his playing partners, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it was a missed call. Without proof to the contrary, I wouldn't consider it cheating. Now, if a player was informed he erred, and still chose not to penalize himself, he would prove he is without integrity and we would all know it. I personally don't think this would be an issue as I think most pro golfers have a desire to know and follow the rules. If they didn't, the game would lose credibility.

The question at hand is the fact that people think it is okay for someone playing golf for millions of dollars to use ignorance as a reason to not call a penalty on themselves. If Joe Duffer at the local muni wants to do that fine but these guys are supposed to be pros, the fact that they didn't know the rules is ridiculous.

[Dave H]

Originally Posted by NM Golf

The question at hand is the fact that people think it is okay for someone playing golf for millions of dollars to use ignorance as a reason to not call a penalty on themselves. If Joe Duffer at the local muni wants to do that fine but these guys are supposed to be pros, the fact that they didn't know the rules is ridiculous.

No, I'm pretty sure the title of this thread is "should viewers be able to call in rules violations". Unless my reading skills have gone completely out the window that's what it says.

[Camo]

I guess my claim wasn't so wild after all...... How many more tv DQ do you think we will get this year ? I still for see the whole thing getting much more out of hand and becoming much more prevalent. This is just the start.

[pusher]

No.

[Ignorant]

An infraction is an infraction regardless who sees it. The difficult issue here is that tv puts players in an unequal position as certain players are shown on the screen much more than others. Thus the propability of noticing an infraction is way higher for those players. On the other hand those are the players who will we in top10 for the competition at hand and those are the ranks where penalty shots earned or missed count the most in money.

So I vote 'yes', integrity and knowledge of the Rules are part of The Principle of Golf and must be honoured.

[PaddyHarrington]

100% NO IMHO,I think anyone that would use their energy to email or ring in hasn't much to be doing with their time and are quite sad individuals

[Chris G]

NO,

its the tournament organisers to make sure the rules are followed, not arm chair bandits, honestly they are worse then back seat drivers!!!!

[zeg]

Originally Posted by PaddyHarrington

100% NO IMHO,I think anyone that would use their energy to email or ring in hasn't much to be doing with their time and are quite sad individuals

I don't get this (repeatedly expressed) argument at all.  First, in at least one of the recent cases, the "energy" expended was somebody tweeting about what he saw, which caught the attention of the tournament committee.  That's hardly an anomalous expenditure of energy.  Second, it has almost nothing to do with the question at hand.  The question is what the officials should do when they get one of these "calls," not whether they should be made.

At least, that's the best I can describe the question: as it's phrased in the poll, it's nonsensical.  There's no hotline or email address for rules violations, and no rule about who can or cannot point something out.  If you want to prevent this, you have to become very specific about what information can be made available to the committee and how they can get it.  Can fans on the course mention something they see to one of the officials milling around?  What about other competitors?  What if one of these parties saw something but didn't think about it until they saw a tweet and reports it the next day?  Do they need to be interrogated to ensure that "illegal" information doesn't lead to a penalty?  Contrary to the ignorant statements above, no fan is "enforcing" the rules, they're just providing information that leads the committee to have a closer look at something.

Sorry, it's just silly.  No matter how you dice it, some players and some elements of the game will be observed by more eyes than others.  This is only "unfair" if you consider it to be fair to let a player escape a penalty because no one else saw it.  Every broken rule *should* incur its penalty.  Rules will be inadvertently broken, this is unavoidable, but every one that is found and applied improves the actual fairness of the game.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaddyHarrington

100% NO IMHO,I think anyone that would use their energy to email or ring in hasn't much to be doing with their time and are quite sad individuals

I don't get this (repeatedly expressed) argument at all.  . . . [edited out the rest]

What's that saying about the pot calling the kettle a name that in this day and age shouldn't even be considered an insult but when the phrase was coined it sort of was?

[PaddyHarrington]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaddyHarrington

100% NO IMHO,I think anyone that would use their energy to email or ring in hasn't much to be doing with their time and are quite sad individuals

I don't get this (repeatedly expressed) argument at all.  First, in at least one of the recent cases, the "energy" expended was somebody tweeting about what he saw, which caught the attention of the tournament committee.  That's hardly an anomalous expenditure of energy.  Second, it has almost nothing to do with the question at hand.  The question is what the officials should do when they get one of these "calls," not whether they should be made.

At least, that's the best I can describe the question: as it's phrased in the poll, it's nonsensical.  There's no hotline or email address for rules violations, and no rule about who can or cannot point something out.  If you want to prevent this, you have to become very specific about what information can be made available to the committee and how they can get it.  Can fans on the course mention something they see to one of the officials milling around?  What about other competitors?  What if one of these parties saw something but didn't think about it until they saw a tweet and reports it the next day?  Do they need to be interrogated to ensure that "illegal" information doesn't lead to a penalty?  Contrary to the ignorant statements above, no fan is "enforcing" the rules, they're just providing information that leads the committee to have a closer look at something.

Sorry, it's just silly.  No matter how you dice it, some players and some elements of the game will be observed by more eyes than others.  This is only "unfair" if you consider it to be fair to let a player escape a penalty because no one else saw it.  Every broken rule *should* incur its penalty.  Rules will be inadvertently broken, this is unavoidable, but every one that is found and applied improves the actual fairness of the game.

The question is " Should television viewers and on-course spectators be allowed to notify rules officials of rules violations"

I answered No,and I gave a opinion that I thought anyone that did is quite a sad person...I'm not sure why your upset,maybe the truth hurts or something and I touched a nerve,are you someone that would notify a rules official of a rules violation while watching professional Golf?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by PaddyHarrington

The question is "Should television viewers and on-course spectators be allowed to notify rules officials of rules violations"

I answered No,and I gave a opinion that I thought anyone that did is quite a sad person...I'm not sure why your upset,maybe the truth hurts or something and I touched a nerve,are you someone that would notify a rules official of a rules violation while watching professional Golf?

Not sure why you think I'm upset, I just think the opinion you offered (which seemed to be offered in support of you "no" vote) is irrelevant to the question.  Forgive me for trying to explain why.

Since you asked, no, I'm not at all likely to try to figure out how to call something in, I just don't have a problem with those who might.

[RemyM]

Absolutely not.  Rules violations should only be allowed to be brought up by the player, a rules official or a fellow competitor.  If one of the other players in the tournament saw it on TV, fine, but not a viewer with no vested interest in the outcome.

The other problem is this usually only effects things that happen in early rounds, since if it happened in the final round and someone calls on Monday, the results are already posted and the tournament results can not be changed.

I live on a course.  Do you think I should call the Pro Shop every time I see a women breaking a rule on ladies tournament day?