No DQ for Steve Marino.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

You agreed it wasn't a penalty based solely on the definition of a bunker*. There are many things involved with preparing to and actually hitting a shot. Marino's actions were unlike anything I've seen while in a hazard. If a guy was doing that same activity while his ball was in the rough - taking practice swings trough the long grass that was on his intended line - he'd at the very least, have his intentions questioned. Those doubts might be unfounded, but it's at least worthy of discussion. If you feel otherwise, avoid the thread.

* within the definition of a bunker is of course reference to it extending down, but not up. Considering the way in which some guys on this forum nitpick everything related to 2nd rate professional's swing mechanics and the etiquette around expectorating, I'm surprised that definition is sufficient. Extending down . . . from where? From the surface of the sand or from the plane of the lip? It may seem rather obvious, but it would be even more obvious with a few more words and a diagram. For more clarity one has to review the decisions.

Rather than all this discussion of trying to determine whether grass is in or out of a bunker or anything like that, wouldn't this simple statement in Rule 13-4 apply?

• At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the storke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

This seems to cover the whole situation quite well.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Rather than all this discussion of trying to determine whether grass is in or out of a bunker or anything like that, wouldn't this simple statement in Rule 13-4 apply?

At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the storke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.

This seems to cover the whole situation quite well.

It actually doesn't cover the situation in any way, but thanks for posting it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Of course we don't care. Some of the grass he made contact with was possibly within the plane of the hazard, but the results are in and he didn't win either way.

It doesn't matter.  Grass within a bunker is not part of the bunker.  It's perfectly ok to touch it, as long as you do nothing to breach rule 13-2.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It doesn't matter.  Grass within a bunker is not part of the bunker.  It's perfectly ok to touch it, as long as you do nothing to breach rule 13-2.

Was that the entire question?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Was that the entire question?

It seems like it to me. You said:

Quote:

Maybe Steve Marino should have been penalized for brushing the grass overhanging the fairway bunker on 18, and maybe not.

I'm simply saying no, he shouldn't have been.  The rest of your original post was just reporting on his meltdown, wasn't it?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It seems like it to me. You said:

I'm simply saying no, he shouldn't have been.  The rest of your original post was just reporting on his meltdown, wasn't it?

If you'd read the rest of the thread, like you ofen encourage people to do, you'd see that was covered several times and there was more to my questioning his actions than just whether or not the grass was considered part of the hazard.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johninlongmont

3. it matters, CAUSE IT'S THE RULES!!!...and what about the guys who finished beneath him who should have finished higher and gotten a bigger check?

the PGA needs to resolve this

What's to resolve? From what I've read no rules were broken. So...

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Extending down . . . from where?

Clearly, extending downward from the parts which are defined as a bunker. A grass wall is not included in that.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

Clearly, extending downward from the parts which are defined as a bunker. A grass wall is not included in that.

Other than the almost vague for the sake of being vague way the rules are worded I don't actually care too much bunker definitions. Ooops sorry, the USGA is flawless and the rule is perfectly worded, let's move on.

In the OP I mentioned the bunker, but his overall preparation for the shot seem a bit hinky. If other people don't share that opinion, that is their business.

[dbuck]

I don't really have a horse in this race, but that has never kept me from opening my stupid mouth.

You can touch all the trees, grass, flowers or whatever you want in the course of a swing, address, etc., but you can't intentionally move something growing out of your way. If your ball is in an iffy fairway lie, you can ground your club behind it (touching the grass) but you aren't supposed to tap your club down behind it in such a way that it pops it up-this is called improving your lie.  If you swing and your club catches a branch on your follow through, that is ok, but you can't keep swinging and hacking to remove a limb from your intended line. I don't think you can keep practice swinging on a bunch of grass if your intention is to whack it down out of your way.

Personally, I don't think that was Marino's intention, but it is the point of controversy.  He may have been testing the grass, and as long as he did not intend to move it aside, that is probably ok.

[dbuck]

PS, there have been times when I wished my 14th club was a chainsaw.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

In the OP I mentioned the bunker, but his overall preparation for the shot seem a bit hinky. If other people don't share that opinion, that is their business.

I still haven't seen the video, so I haven't commented on his "preparation" or anything he may or may not have done to his line.

[Zeph]

As long as you don't cut off grass, break or bend them, it should be fine. I didn't see the incident happen, so I don't really know what he did and what it looked like.

The definition may be a bit vague, but it's all we got. At least I couldn't find any decisions. It does say that a grass-covered ground within the bunker is not part of the bunker. All in all, I don't have a problem with understanding this definition. The problem would lie in improving the path of the swing, which depends on what he did, not wether it was a bunker or not. You can even touch growing grass in a water hazard, it's touching the ground or loose impediments that is not allowed. The rule that may apply here is 13.

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved:

· the position or lie of his ball,

· the area of his intended stance or swing,

· his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or

· the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,

by any of the following actions:

· pressing a club on the ground,

· moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),

So, depending on what he really did, it might have been a breach. If he knows his club will move through a patch of grass outside the bunker, then goes on to swing the club through that patch of grass, cutting, bending or breaking it, it might be an infringement. I didn't find any decisions on the topic, and one might wonder how much it matters when the patch of grass would be hit long after the ball had left.

[dbuck]

Originally Posted by Zeph

As long as you don't cut off grass, break or bend them, it should be fine. I didn't see the incident happen, so I don't really know what he did and what it looked like.

The definition may be a bit vague, but it's all we got. At least I couldn't find any decisions. It does say that a grass-covered ground within the bunker is not part of the bunker. All in all, I don't have a problem with understanding this definition. The problem would lie in improving the path of the swing, which depends on what he did, not wether it was a bunker or not. You can even touch growing grass in a water hazard, it's touching the ground or loose impediments that is not allowed. The rule that may apply here is 13.

So, depending on what he really did, it might have been a breach. If he knows his club will move through a patch of grass outside the bunker, then goes on to swing the club through that patch of grass, cutting, bending or breaking it, it might be an infringement. I didn't find any decisions on the topic, and one might wonder how much it matters when the patch of grass would be hit long after the ball had left.

Welll, that is the point.

What he did COULD have been interpreted as moving or bending or cutting to improve the line of play and/or restrictions on his swing.via making repeated practice swings to move the grass out of his way.  I think he was swinging to test the grass and how it might affect his swing or the balls flight but I could see how some might think he was trying to move the grass out of his way.

[johninlongmont]

Originally Posted by iacas

What's to resolve? From what I've read no rules were broken. So...

.

I guess I still see the question of whether or not whacking at the grass that is in or adjacent to the intended flight of your ball is proper...my issue is that I can't believe Marino intended to hit the grass, but when he DID hit the grass I gotta believe it set off some alarms in his and his caddy's heads...the proper thing at that point is to stop and figure it out - probably call in a rules official, as these pros seem to do at the drop of a hat in most situations - that's what I would have done...it may be construed Marino was "testing" the grass if not actually messing with his intended line of flight...I don't have anything against Marino...this is about the rules and protecting the field

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by johninlongmont

I guess I still see the question of whether or not whacking at the grass that is in or adjacent to the intended flight of your ball is proper...my issue is that I can't believe Marino intended to hit the grass, but when he DID hit the grass I gotta believe it set off some alarms in his and his caddy's heads...the proper thing at that point is to stop and figure it out - probably call in a rules official, as these pros seem to do at the drop of a hat in most situations - that's what I would have done...it may be construed Marino was "testing" the grass if not actually messing with his intended line of flight...I don't have anything against Marino...this is about the rules and protecting the field

I didn't question his intentions, but rather, his actions. I found it funny that since the winner was established and the coverage was running late already, there was not one mention of it. Perhaps it was so irrelevant that it wasn't worth mentioning, but I'm sure that's what Padraig thought too.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by johninlongmont

I guess I still see the question of whether or not whacking at the grass that is in or adjacent to the intended flight of your ball is proper...my issue is that I can't believe Marino intended to hit the grass, but when he DID hit the grass I gotta believe it set off some alarms in his and his caddy's heads...the proper thing at that point is to stop and figure it out - probably call in a rules official, as these pros seem to do at the drop of a hat in most situations - that's what I would have done...it may be construed Marino was "testing" the grass if not actually messing with his intended line of flight...I don't have anything against Marino...this is about the rules and protecting the field

He's allowed to test the grass.  The only way this would be a problem is if he'd hacked out some grass that had previously been on his line of play.  As I recall, it was a big tuft that got fluffed a bit but didn't look any different after than it did before.  Even if some of the grass was broken off, there's no problem---it'd be like knocking a few small leaves off a leafy tree, it's only a penalty if the area of the swing (or perhaps the line of play) is improved (Decision 13-2/22).

If he didn't know the rule, then perhaps he should have called for an official.  If he's confident he knows the rule and the relevant facts, there'd be no need for alarms and no reason to call the official.  If he wants to for his own protection it might be a good idea, but in this case he was pretty unquestionably in the right.

Also, this is a pretty poor example of a case where the home viewers miss their chance to call in because of the end of the tournament.  Anyone watching him play saw that he touched the grass, so if there were some question about it, someone on site would have had plenty of time to raise the question before the results were made official.  It's not like it's over as soon as the last group putts out.