Hitting Up or Down with the Driver in an Inline Pattern

[Buckeyebowman]

Yeah, that's kind of what I mean when I say catching it "dead flush". Where the AOA, loft, contact area on the face just line up perfectly, or as you put it they are "optimized".

Even we higher handicappers have felt it a time or two. Those rare swings where everything comes together and the ball takes off with a verve, trajectory and velocity that we don't normally produce!

Just one of the things that make us tee it up again.

[mvmac]

Boom. High launch low spin...even with a flexed lead wrist (hope Brandel is paying attention).

[nevets88]

7 hours ago, mvmac said:

Boom. High launch low spin...even with a flexed lead wrist (hope Brandel is paying attention).

 

9 degrees difference in attack angle. Jeez.

[Club Rat]

9 hours ago, mvmac said:

Boom. High launch low spin

And a lower club head speed and ball speed, produced a greater carry distance?
Thank golf gods, I still have hope ...  to hit it further ... hope being the key word. 

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, Club Rat said:

And a lower club head speed and ball speed, produced a greater carry distance?

Yes, that's why achieving a positive angle of attack (properly) is so important to the majority of golfers.

[iacas]

17 hours ago, mvmac said:

I don't know about the "straighter" part as you know. It's easier to tilt the spin axis when the ball has 1800 RPM "backspin" than when it has 2800 RPM "backspin."

[Nail]

I know this is an old thread but only discovered it now. I'm eager to try this out at the range. I was just wondering though what loft driver i should use I have a 9 deg x stiff driver adjustable from 8 to 11 degrees. I swing driver over 110mph. 

Is it now more optimal to use a higher degree to get a higher launch plus hitting up on the ball or is say 8deg plus 4deg aoa better than say 10deg plus 4deg aoa. All else equal which goes further according to the data??

Sorry if this seems like a stupid question? @iacas would love your input?

Edited November 23, 2018 by Nail

[iacas]

On 11/23/2018 at 2:45 PM, Nail said:

I know this is an old thread but only discovered it now. I'm eager to try this out at the range. I was just wondering though what loft driver i should use I have a 9 deg x stiff driver adjustable from 8 to 11 degrees. I swing driver over 110mph. 

 Is it now more optimal to use a higher degree to get a higher launch plus hitting up on the ball or is say 8deg plus 4deg aoa better than say 10deg plus 4deg aoa. All else equal which goes further according to the data??

Sorry if this seems like a stupid question? @iacas would love your input?

Generally speaking you want about 2500 RPM of spin.

The more loft you add, the higher the spin loft and the more spin you add. With the same dynamic loft (shaft flex, kick point, etc. can affect this too), you can reduce the spin loft by hitting up… though dynamic loft tends to follow the AoA a little bit, too: if you move from -2° AoA to +2° AoA, it'd be very weird for the dynamic loft not to also shift a few degrees.

[Nail]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Generally speaking you want about 2500 RPM of spin.

The more loft you add, the higher the spin loft and the more spin you add. With the same dynamic loft (shaft flex, kick point, etc. can affect this too), you can reduce the spin loft by hitting up… though dynamic loft tends to follow the AoA a little bit, too: if you move from -2° AoA to +2° AoA, it'd be very weird for the dynamic loft not to also shift a few degrees.

I'm not going to lie, I don't really understand your answer, are you saying all else equal a lower lofted driver will mean less spin loft so a longer drive? 

Or am i completely wrong?

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Nail said:

I'm not going to lie, I don't really understand your answer, are you saying all else equal a lower lofted driver will mean less spin loft so a longer drive?

Or am i completely wrong?

I'm saying it's a multi-dimensional problem.

Lower loft could lead to a launch angle that's too low, too, and reduce distance. You have to blend:

• launch angle
• ball speed
• spin

To produce the best drives.

Adding loft increases launch but also spin. Adding AoA (more positive) tends to increase launch but also not have a big effect on spin as dynamic loft also tends to increase.

[Nail]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'm saying it's a multi-dimensional problem.

Lower loft could lead to a launch angle that's too low, too, and reduce distance. You have to blend:

• launch angle
• ball speed
• spin

To produce the best drives.

Adding loft increases launch but also spin. Adding AoA (more positive) tends to increase launch but also not have a big effect on spin as dynamic loft also tends to increase.

So are guys starting to go back to a little higher loft because spin is reduced anyway when combined with a positive attack angle?

Im speaking about guys with a faster swing speed in this scenario btw

Edited November 25, 2018 by Nail

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Nail said:

So are guys starting to go back to a little higher loft because spin is reduced anyway when combined with a positive attack angle?

I'm not sure how you're getting that from what I wrote.

Increase the AoA and you'll often just increase the dynamic loft right along with it, so spin is often basically unchanged.

[phillyk]

41 minutes ago, Nail said:

So are guys starting to go back to a little higher loft because spin is reduced anyway when combined with a positive attack angle?

Im speaking about guys with a faster swing speed in this scenario btw

2 golfers with 2 different ball flights and both longest drivers (2018/2019): Rory McIlroy and Cameron Champ

Last year Rory had an average 11.9 launch angle, 319yds, and 2239rpm of spin. 121mph club head speed and the driver he uses is a 8.5 degree M3
This year Cameron has an average 7.3 launch angle, 328yds, and 3517rpm of spin. 130mph club head speed and the driver he uses is a 7.9 degree G400

Rory is a launch it high and let if fly, positive attack angle and low spin.  Cameron has a negative attack angle, thus producing a bunch of spin and low launch angle.  Based on Cameron's swing speed, he is costing himself distance off the tee, maybe like 10-15yds.  Not to get off topic, but tour players like to swing down, usually, to try and gain more accuracy.  They do this more in high winds.  

How this relates to you, go for something that gets you around 10-12 launch angle and around 2200 rpm.  It will get you the most distance out of your swing speed.

[Nail]

Just a quick question on ball position if you wanted to hit a draw with a positive angle of attack, do you position the ball before the low point and then close the stance a few degrees? Or do you position it ahead of the low point and close the stance from there a few degrees? 

Does closing the stance a few degrees in the first scenario mean you can still hit up on it a few degrees or would it still be a negative angle of attack?

[billchao]

30 minutes ago, Nail said:

Just a quick question on ball position if you wanted to hit a draw with a positive angle of attack, do you position the ball before the low point and then close the stance a few degrees? Or do you position it ahead of the low point and close the stance from there a few degrees?

The latter. If you position the ball before the low point, your AoA will be negative.

31 minutes ago, Nail said:

Does closing the stance a few degrees in the first scenario mean you can still hit up on it a few degrees or would it still be a negative angle of attack?

Check that thread out. The idea is to have a positive AoA, but shift your entire swing plane outward so your path is still out on the upswing at impact.

Picture a tilted hula hoop. The upward part of the swing arc is also coming back in towards you.

[Nail]

20 minutes ago, billchao said:

The latter. If you position the ball before the low point, your AoA will be negative.

Check that thread out. The idea is to have a positive AoA, but shift your entire swing plane outward so your path is still out on the upswing at impact.

Picture a tilted hula hoop. The upward part of the swing arc is also coming back in towards you.

Thanks for the quick reply mate, I guess i had picured in my head that if you had the ball positioned before the low point that when you rotated your stance closed a bit you maybe moved the low point of your swing too to the right now making the ball in front of the low point, am I way off base here?

[billchao]

1 minute ago, Nail said:

Thanks for the quick reply mate, I guess i had picured in my head that if you had the ball positioned before the low point that when you rotated your stance closed a bit you maybe moved the low point of your swing too to the right now making the ball in front of the low point, am I way off base here?

If you set up to a ball and then close your stance, the ball ends up slightly more forward in relation to your new stance. The opposite is true if you open your stance.

Be careful about your word usage. In front is kind of ambiguous. I think you're using it to mean before low point, but it can be read as after low point, as in ahead of it.

[Nail]

2 hours ago, billchao said:

If you set up to a ball and then close your stance, the ball ends up slightly more forward in relation to your new stance. The opposite is true if you open your stance.

Be careful about your word usage. In front is kind of ambiguous. I think you're using it to mean before low point, but it can be read as after low point, as in ahead of it.

The bit in bold, Yes that’s what I thought so does that now mean you will be hitting the ball on the up because it’s now in front or ahead if you like of the low point of your swing??