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Confusing Ball Flight Information - followup


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Went to the range after my first lesson, and have to say that he has helped me.Β  He's a big Hogan guy, so much of what he says is based on Hogans books and swing philosophy.Β  He pointed out that my swing was almostΒ 100% arms, got me to make some changes that would bring more of my body into it and made some changes to my grip (very similar to Hogans grip).Β  I went and hit 120 balls yesterday, there's aΒ slight slice / fade in my swing still, but the dispersion was the best I've ever had.Β  Usually I'm slicing some, hitting some straight, and hooking some, but yesterday every ball was about 10 yards off from my target line, no hooks, etc.

My distance was improved but not sure if that's the swing or new irons (I only hit PW, 7i) as I was consistently about 10 -Β 15 yards longer and over 20 yards on some.Β  The biggest difference for me was that previously after hitting 120 balls I'd be pretty wiped out, arms would be tired, etc.Β  Yesterday I could have easily hit another 120 balls, as the new swing feelsΒ pretty effortless.

Joe Paradiso

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

Went to the range after my first lesson, and have to say that he has helped me.Β  He's a big Hogan guy, so much of what he says is based on Hogans books and swing philosophy.Β  He pointed out that my swing was almostΒ 100% arms, got me to make some changes that would bring more of my body into it and made some changes to my grip (very similar to Hogans grip).Β  I went and hit 120 balls yesterday, there's aΒ slight slice / fade in my swing still, but the dispersion was the best I've ever had.Β  Usually I'm slicing some, hitting some straight, and hooking some, but yesterday every ball was about 10 yards off from my target line, no hooks, etc.

My distance was improved but not sure if that's the swing or new irons (I only hit PW, 7i) as I was consistently about 10 -Β 15 yards longer and over 20 yards on some.Β  The biggest difference for me was that previously after hitting 120 balls I'd be pretty wiped out, arms would be tired, etc.Β  Yesterday I could have easily hit another 120 balls, as the new swing feelsΒ pretty effortless.


If he's a Hogan guy, you are on the right track. There is no better model for a golf swing than Ben Hogan.Β  Not that any of us could come close, but he is the ideal, in my opinion.Β  Chances are the increase in your distance is due to your new swing; using the body as a power source instead of just your arms will make a huge difference. Glad to hear it's working out so far.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

The biggest difference for me was that previously after hitting 120 balls I'd be pretty wiped out, arms would be tired, etc.Β  Yesterday I could have easily hit another 120 balls, as the new swing feelsΒ pretty effortless.


Sounds like you're on the right track to me. When my swing is really on "effortless" is the most tangible difference, it's almost like you are "just along for the ride". I'd stick with this guy for now as he has you making good contact but take his ball flight ideas with a grain of salt! In anycase you probably shouldn't concern yourself with fades and draws till later and at that point you can seek out a Pro who isn't so whacky in that regard.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

He got pretty salesy on how everyone else was wrong, and he was talking basic physics, so I just listened.



I know I'm late to the party here, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.Β  He was indeed talking basic physics...emphasis on the word BASIC.

If golf were a game of elastic collisions, he'd be right.Β  However, it (golf) isn't, and thus he's woefully incorrect.

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The original ball flight laws that have won hundreds of majors and thousands of tournaments world wide.Β  In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.

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The original ball flight laws that have won hundreds of majors and thousands of tournaments world wide.Β  In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.

There is misnomer there, the reason is that the swing path for a pro is usually perpendicular to the clubface, maybe a plus-minus 5 degrees, for fades or draws. So if you have 85%-90% the direction of the ball is determined by the clubface, and the rest by swing path, then by pro data it can seem like that it is on the swing path. Also saying just because they won countless wins and majors, doesn't make it right. Thats like saying Zeus is still throwing down lightning bolts everytime it storms. We know that science has proven lightning is caused by a supercharged atmosphere. Just like this, Science has proven that the golf ball goes primarily were the face is aimed.

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Originally Posted by saevel25

There is misnomer there, the reason is that the swing path for a pro is usually perpendicular to the clubface, maybe a plus-minus 5 degrees, for fades or draws. So if you have 85%-90% the direction of the ball is determined by the clubface, and the rest by swing path, then by pro data it can seem like that it is on the swing path. Also saying just because they won countless wins and majors, doesn't make it right. Thats like saying Zeus is still throwing down lightning bolts everytime it storms. We know that science has proven lightning is caused by a supercharged atmosphere. Just like this, Science has proven that the golf ball goes primarily were the face is aimed.



Are you sure you're responding to the right post?

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Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

The original ball flight laws that have won hundreds of majors and thousands of tournaments world wide.Β  In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.



So? Since when does the PGA Manual of Golf define the rules of the universe. And just because hundreds/thousands/millions of people were taught something, that doesn't mean it's right. I really don't understand the point that you are trying to make. That something wrong is somehow right? Why? Because people believed faulty logic for years?

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Originally Posted by jamo

So? Since when does the PGA Manual of Golf define the rules of the universe. And just because hundreds/thousands/millions of people were taught something, that doesn't mean it's right. I really don't understand the point that you are trying to make. That something wrong is somehow right? Why? Because people believed faulty logic for years?



Am I in bazarro world today?

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

The original ball flight laws that have won hundreds of majors and thousands of tournaments world wide.Β  In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.



The old, incorrect, ball flight laws have won nothing... Β maybe some players that believed the old laws to be true won, but that is irrelavent. Β I really can't believe that there is even a debate about this... there is high speed video that shows beyond a doubt that the old laws are incorrect and that the new laws are indeed true. Β There is not room for opinions on this... Β the old laws, no matter who believed them, were never right. Β I mean, the world is round, it always has been even though at one time people believed it to be flat... same thing here; many people use to believe in the old way and now have been PROVEN wrong.

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Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

The original ball flight laws that have won hundreds of majors and thousands of tournaments world wide.Β  In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.


A ball flight law has never won any tournament, anywhere or anytime.Β Β  Players hitting golf balls won those tournaments, and the those players have had different perspectives for what they felt was happening but the physics has been unchanged.

People also use to think the earth was flat, the stars and planets circled the earth, and that a solar eclipse required a human sacrifice for the sun to return.Β Β Β Β  Just because they felt it didn't make it so, and the laws of physics once again triumph over ignorance and folklore.

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Pretty funny - tristanhilton and I must have been writing at the same time both came up with the same thoughts:Β  ball flight laws never won anything, and people thought the earth was flat.Β Β Β Β  How did we both get the same thoughts and analogies at the same time?Β Β  Eerie.......

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

The old, incorrect, ball flight laws have won nothing... Β maybe some players that believed the old laws to be true won, but that is irrelavent. Β I really can't believe that there is even a debate about this... there is high speed video that shows beyond a doubt that the old laws are incorrect and that the new laws are indeed true. Β There is not room for opinions on this... Β the old laws, no matter who believed them, were never right. Β I mean, the world is round, it always has been even though at one time people believed it to be flat... same thing here; many people use to believe in the old way and now have been PROVEN wrong.

Originally Posted by Clambake

A ball flight law has never won any tournament, anywhere or anytime.Β Β  Players hitting golf balls won those tournaments, and the those players have had different perspectives for what they felt was happening but the physics has been unchanged.

People also use to think the earth was flat, the stars and planets circled the earth, and that a solar eclipse required a human sacrifice for the sun to return.Β Β Β Β  Just because they felt it didn't make it so, and the laws of physics once again triumph over ignorance and folklore.



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Originally Posted by Clambake

A ball flight law has never won any tournament, anywhere or anytime.Β Β  Players hitting golf balls won those tournaments, and the those players have had different perspectives for what they felt was happening but the physics has been unchanged.

People also use to think the earth was flat, the stars and planets circled the earth, and that a solar eclipse required a human sacrifice for the sun to return.Β Β Β Β  Just because they felt it didn't make it so, and the laws of physics once again triumph over ignorance and folklore.



Do you guys know how much you're sounding like cult members now? It's like people responding en masse to a documentary that hasn't aired yet.

Maybe I don't read good, but that excerpt from the PGA Manual seems to be pretty consistent with the concepts you guys are preaching, just using different words. Maybe try taking off the S&T; tinted glasses and read the actual words.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by Clambake

Pretty funny - tristanhilton and I must have been writing at the same time both came up with the same thoughts:Β  ball flight laws never won anything, and people thought the earth was flat.Β Β Β Β  How did we both get the same thoughts and analogies at the same time?Β Β  Eerie.......


In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Do you guys know how much you're sounding like cult members now? It's like people responding en masse to a documentary that hasn't aired yet.

Maybe I don't read good, but that excerpt from the PGA Manual seems to be pretty consistent with the concepts you guys are preaching, just using different words. Maybe try taking off the S&T; tinted glasses and read the actual words.

Alright then, leave the PGA Manual and S&T; out of it. JTJ believes that we should golf using the belief that the ball starts on the line of the path of the golf club, or at least we should play as though it does. Β He has been proven wrong. So why is he clinging to incorrect beliefs? Because that's what they are at this point- beliefs. Faith in theΒ absenceΒ of common sense and world of science.

I admit, that one sounded really cult-ish.

Never mind. I give up. There's no real point to this.

In my bag:

Driver: Titleist TSi3Β |Β 15ΒΊ 3-Wood: Ping G410 |Β 17ΒΊ 2-Hybrid: Ping G410 |Β 19ΒΊ 3-Iron: TaylorMade GAPR Lo |4-PW Irons: Nike VR Pro Combo |Β 54ΒΊ SW, 60ΒΊ LW: Titleist Vokey SM8Β |Β Putter: Odyssey Toulon Las Vegas H7

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Originally Posted by jamo

Alright then, leave the PGA Manual and S&T; out of it. JTJ believes that we should golf using the belief that the ball starts on the line of the path of the golf club, or at least we should play as though it does. Β He has been proven wrong. So why is he clinging to incorrect beliefs? Because that's what they are at this point- beliefs. Faith in theΒ absenceΒ of common sense and world of science.

I admit, that one sounded really cult-ish.


Since we're leaving any pre-judgements out of the equation. Forget about what JTJ's opinions on golf instruction are and read his post. The one you guys are all getting all biblical about.

It is 100% consistent with the "new" ball flight laws. It was a red herring I suspect, and you guys are all suddenly allergic to fish, speaking of churchy symbols.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by jamo

Alright then, leave the PGA Manual and S&T; out of it. JTJ believes that we should golf using the belief that the ball starts on the line of the path of the golf club, or at least we should play as though it does. He has been proven wrong. So why is he clinging to incorrect beliefs? Because that's what they are at this point- beliefs. Faith in the absence of common sense and world of science.

I admit, that one sounded really cult-ish.

Never mind. I give up. There's no real point to this.

IΒ think the point JTJ was making was that many pro golfers won majors, and other tournaments thinking the old ball flightΒ laws were correct.

Joe Paradiso

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Since we're leaving any pre-judgements out of the equation. Forget about what JTJ's opinions on golf instruction are and read his post. The one you guys are all getting all biblical about.

It is 100% consistent with the "new" ball flight laws. It was a red herring I suspect, and you guys are all suddenly allergic to fish, speaking of churchy symbols.



That's why I tried to sneak in the "I give up." I didn't read it carefully enough. I made a mistake. My bad.

In my bag:

Driver: Titleist TSi3Β |Β 15ΒΊ 3-Wood: Ping G410 |Β 17ΒΊ 2-Hybrid: Ping G410 |Β 19ΒΊ 3-Iron: TaylorMade GAPR Lo |4-PW Irons: Nike VR Pro Combo |Β 54ΒΊ SW, 60ΒΊ LW: Titleist Vokey SM8Β |Β Putter: Odyssey Toulon Las Vegas H7

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Note:Β This thread is 4720 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic.Β Thank you!

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