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Confusing Ball Flight Information - followup


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No agenda at all, whats your problem. Did i get under your skin a little, chill out. I got no clue where your getting at coming at me like this.

But my point is to get a correct concept of what happens with the golf swing. I understand him trying to fit old ways of setting up with what has be discovered by high speed camera and physics. Which is find, if you know aiming left, having the clubface square gets you to your destination on the green, all power to you. I also never claimed that it was an OTT move, he himself pointed out that your swinging along the path of were your aiming, so i took that as the assumption.

If someones going to give an example as square clubface and 2 degrees closed stance, then they should know that the ball will start off 0.5 degrees to the right of center, not 2 degrees. Thats the main key. Let say you wanted to go around a tree, you think that the 2 degrees closed gets you there, but you need to be conserned more with the clubface than your stance, because 0.5 degrees might not start you right enough.

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Originally Posted by Harmonious

I think you're misinterpreting my questions as somehow trying to invalidate your premise of ball flight. That's not my intent. I think many people would find it interesting and informative to know exactly how much to open or close a clubface (in relation to swingpath) to bring about a 5 yard curve, or a 10 yard curve. It would seem with all the research that has been done recently, that this information would be attainable, similar the graph that Zeph included regarding initial direction vs. face angle.


No, I didn't take it that way.

People may find it "interesting" but it won't do anyone any good, because the only things they need to worry about are "more" and "less." Open the clubface "more" or or swing out to the right "less" (or whatever). Nobody's going to "swing right 0.73 degrees less with a clubface that's 0.12 degrees more open."

And there is plenty of research and there are plenty of numbers, but as Zeph said, they're going to vary slightly for each set of circumstances - ball speed, clubhead speed, centered-ness of contact, temperature, loft, shaft flex, etc. They'd be pointless - you know the basics, so move on to the application phase. You're making it too complicated. "More" or "Less" is about all that you need. If you're over-drawing the ball, you need to either open the face "more" or swing right "less" depending on where your ball starts now.

The old rules would tell you "swing right more." Which also complicates things, because good luck fixing an over-draw by swinging right more...

Originally Posted by Harmonious

The reason this is important is in the real world.  If I want to draw a six iron 5 yards to a back left hole, do I open the clubface 2* and align myself 4* right?  Or is the correct amount 1* open and 3* right?

You apply the rules for your swing and impact conditions. If the ball is 15 yards left or 5 yards left (both are possible), then you'll apply different amounts of the two. You might suggest this is experimentation, but it's not - it's application of the rules. The experimentation has already been done. You have what you can regard as a "law" or a "rule."

The "old" (incorrect) ball flight things required experimentation because they weren't correct. Players had to subconsciously invalidate the hypothesis that the face was where the ball finished and the path was where it started because they were wrong.


Originally Posted by Harmonious

In the past, you have rejected my idea that practice and experimentation are necessary to determine how much to modify the clubface angle.  So there must be data out there that shows exactly how much.  That's all I'm trying to get at.  No ulterior motive here at all.

No, I rejected your idea that starting with the old ball flight laws and then "practice and experimentation" would get everyone to the final answer (at all, let alone quickly). I rejected the idea that, presented with something we've not seen before or practiced before, like hitting a massive hook or slice around a tree (people don't practice that), we'd be "okay" to use the old ball flight information.

The new ball flight laws provide a far, far better starting point. And they don't tell someone who's not starting the ball right enough to "swing right more."

I have the data. It's pointless to share because even a small difference in centeredness of contact can change the numbers. People need only "more" or "less" of something to get their ball flight honed in, and with the proper information, should be reasonably successful in the situations nobody practices. Why? Because it's application of a truth, not experimentation that contradicts.

I've rejected your consistent promotion of the idea that the starting point of our knowledge is not important. Starting with the right information essentially removes the "experimentation" (to subconsciously invalidate) phase, allowing golfers to get into the application phase immediately.

The numbers are out there if you want 'em. They're useful in certain cases, but a general discussion like this ain't one of 'em. I can show you situations in which those numbers will show a ball that's fifteen yards left of the target and one which shows the ball is only five yards left of the target. I can even show you numbers where that ball ends up AT the target (though short, because the contact was made so far in the heel).

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Originally Posted by saevel25

No agenda at all, whats your problem. Did i get under your skin a little, chill out. I got no clue where your getting at coming at me like this.

But my point is to get a correct concept of what happens with the golf swing. I understand him trying to fit old ways of setting up with what has be discovered by high speed camera and physics. Which is find, if you know aiming left, having the clubface square gets you to your destination on the green, all power to you. I also never claimed that it was an OTT move, he himself pointed out that your swinging along the path of were your aiming, so i took that as the assumption.

If someones going to give an example as square clubface and 2 degrees closed stance, then they should know that the ball will start off 0.5 degrees to the right of center, not 2 degrees. Thats the main key. Let say you wanted to go around a tree, you think that the 2 degrees closed gets you there, but you need to be conserned more with the clubface than your stance, because 0.5 degrees might not start you right enough.


You assume things that are not there, then get specific on angles that are not likely to be reproduced by the average hacker.

You guys can chose to look at this as a math problem, or you can allow the people to can actually work the ball under pressure describe how that do that? Is this the old "feel isn't real" discussion? Possibly, but when a person is practicing, what exactly does "swing 10 degrees to the right" feel like?

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

You assume things that are not there, then get specific on angles that are not likely to be reproduced by the average hacker.

You guys can chose to look at this as a math problem, or you can allow the people to can actually work the ball under pressure describe how that do that? Is this the old "feel isn't real" discussion? Possibly, but when a person is practicing, what exactly does "swing 10 degrees to the right" feel like?


I miss the edit feature - need to turn off my random word generator.

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I experiment at the course and range to see how much the ball draws and apply it to my game. As long as you know where you are aimed and somewhat where your swing path goes, it should not be too hard to work out. Aim right of the green, square clubface to the target. Ball overdraws. Open the clubface a little bit, less draw. You could also align more right and keep the amount of movement right to left. Make sure you aim properly and register where the ball started. You should pretty quickly be able to figure out where you want to align and where you want to aim the clubface. In 10 different swings, you won't deliver the club to the identical position as address, and the swing path may vary a bit too of course, but it's probably the best way to go. I don't imagine anyone looking at a green and thinking "If I aim 9 yards right of the degrees, I must aim the clubface 5 degrees right. I never aim the clubface before my setup. First I decide how I want to hit the ball. Fade, draw or straight. Then I find the intermediate target for where I want to align my body. When I'm all set up, I will put the clubface in whatever direction is needed to hit the desired shot. Typically I will aim some distance to the right of the green and leave the clubface square or slightly open, depending on how the swing path is working that day. I don't like aiming the clubface first and alignment second, it make things feel weird. I use the clubface to align with the intermediate target, which I then use to align my body, but after that I can open or close the clubface to the proper starting line. I'm interested in the numbers behind it, but it's not something I'd ever put into play on the course or range. It's just not possible to know the difference of 3º and 5º, or 12 yards and 15 yards from 180 yards away. Go by experience from experimentation and play what works. I often start a round by pulling the ball a bit, so I'll have to work on keeping the clubface square to whatever starting line i've picked or open the clubface slightly. If anything, saying that the swing path should go twice the amount left or right of the clubface, you got a good starting point. Then again, that depends on how big difference there is from CP to FA. Swinging 20º in-out with a 10º open clubface (to the target) will produce a larger amount of sidespin than swinging 6º in-out with a 3º open clubface. You are of course starting the ball closer to the target, but I'm thinking that the first example might overdraw. Knowing that I must open the clubface and not swing more to the right is a world of difference in solving a problem. Like Erik says, the old ball flight laws told us to do the exact opposite of what you need to do. Having that basic information means you can tell pretty accurately what went on in your swing on a shot and use the data to make corrections on the next shot. If you want to find numbers on your own swing and the amount of sideways movement, I'd recommend finding a Trackman setup and hit lots of balls on it. Data gathered from someone else hitting a ball may not apply to you. We're talking about so detailed numbers and small variations that it's very difficult to make sense out of it. I like Erik's approach to the problem. Adjust swing path or clubface and try again.

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Originally Posted by Harmonious

I think you're misinterpreting my questions as somehow trying to invalidate your premise of ball flight.  That's not my intent.  I think many people would find it interesting and informative to know exactly how much to open or close a clubface (in relation to swingpath) to bring about a 5 yard curve, or a 10 yard curve.  It would seem with all the research that has been done recently, that this information would be attainable, similar the graph that Zeph included regarding initial direction vs. face angle.

The reason this is important is in the real world.  If I want to draw a six iron 5 yards to a back left hole, do I open the clubface 2* and align myself 4* right?  Or is the correct amount 1* open and 3* right?   I realize there are variants involved, but there must have been research done to quantify this, other than just to say "quite a bit" or "it depends". Right now, I guess at what feels right, and my results are not as good as I would like. As far as your question about whether it matters exactly how much, I would respond that the difference is that between a 10 foot putt for birdie and a 10 yard chip because I short-sided myself.  Big difference.

In the past, you have rejected my idea that practice and experimentation are necessary to determine how much to modify the clubface angle.  So there must be data out there that shows exactly how much.  That's all I'm trying to get at.  No ulterior motive here at all.

I'd be interested in this info, too.

When I need to fade the ball or draw it more than normal, I like to keep my swing the same and only adjust my alignment and where the club is pointed.  So if I need to fade the ball around a tree, for example, I will point the club face roughly where I want the ball to start and align my stance further to the left of that intended starting line, and try to make a normal swing.  For now, I basically estimate that I need to align my stance twice as far wide as the club face to get the ball to curve the proper amount: so if I want to start the ball 10 yards left of the flag and have it fade to the flag, I will align my stance 20 yards left of the flag and take my grip so that the club face is pointing 10 yards left of the flag.  Or if I want to start the ball 15 yards left of the flag, I will align my stands 30 yards left of the flag and point the club face 15 yards left of the flag.  You get the idea.

But I don't know if these estimates are correct.  And of course I don't know for sure exactly how my swing path was for a given swing, so even if the ball curves the amount I want it to, I'm still not sure if it was because I aligned myself properly and made a good swing or because I aligned myself wrong but messed up my swing just the correct way by coincidence.

So basically, if you have the info, I would love to know the general, basic estimates for the swing path / club face angle combination that will produce a given amount of curve to the ball, just assuming a normal lie, average swing speed, perfect contact, no wind.  Just a basic estimate so I can be confident about my alignment and just focus on making a good swing.  Thanks.

PS: I know there will be a difference for draws and fades if you normally play a push draw or something, but the info about swing path / club face angle would still be very useful.  A push draw player will just need to realize that you exaggerate the set up for fades and reduce it for hooks (all of this assuming you hit fades and draws by adjusting your set up and making a normal swing).

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

You guys can chose to look at this as a math problem, or you can allow the people to can actually work the ball under pressure describe how that do that? Is this the old "feel isn't real" discussion? Possibly, but when a person is practicing, what exactly does "swing 10 degrees to the right" feel like?

What's your question? Did you see my post? "More" or "Less" are all players have to worry about. But having the correct information is a must.

Originally Posted by laxbballgolf

I'd be interested in this info, too.

Look 'em up. Or find a local pro with a Trackman and get your numbers. You can find the data for a fair number of pros out there. Look for it.



Originally Posted by laxbballgolf

When I need to fade the ball or draw it more than normal, I like to keep my swing the same and only adjust my alignment and where the club is pointed. So if I need to fade the ball around a tree, for example, I will point the club face roughly where I want the ball to start and align my stance further to the left of that intended starting line, and try to make a normal swing.  For now, I basically estimate that I need to align my stance twice as far wide as the club face to get the ball to curve the proper amount: so if I want to start the ball 10 yards left of the flag and have it fade to the flag, I will align my stance 20 yards left of the flag and take my grip so that the club face is pointing 10 yards left of the flag.  Or if I want to start the ball 15 yards left of the flag, I will align my stands 30 yards left of the flag and point the club face 15 yards left of the flag. You get the idea.

That's a reasonable way to go about it. If you're in the trees you're in the rough and the face angle will often have a bigger influence (while simultaneously reducing overall spin a little). That's why being more specific is tough to do - lots of little things can change things slightly .

Originally Posted by laxbballgolf

So basically, if you have the info, I would love to know the general, basic estimates for the swing path / club face angle combination that will produce a given amount of curve to the ball, just assuming a normal lie, average swing speed, perfect contact, no wind.  Just a basic estimate so I can be confident about my alignment and just focus on making a good swing.  Thanks.

As Zeph said, a 2:1 ratio is pretty good. The odds of you being able to exactly apply (during your swing, too, not just at setup) a ratio of say 1.93 to 1 is silly. Just get the ball on the green.

The only word of caution: if your natural swing is a fade, you know you're likely swinging left of your stance, so when drawing you might need to overdo it a little and when slicing around a tree, underdo the stance part a little. Edit: Which is what your PS is about... Yeah. :-)

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I understand why pros hit their stock shot most of the time. Setting up and hitting a fade feels weird and uncomfortable for me now with the irons. If I can hit a draw with my irons, I'll hit a draw.

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I won't get into the depths of this, but H, here's some more data for you.

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The "depths" include the fact that the D-Plane helps to shift the path more and more to the right (hitting down on the ball), and the fact that few good golfers get spin lofts of 50+ because they de-loft well enough.

Spin loft is the angle of difference between the two vectors of the d-plane. One vector is the club path at impact, the other is the club's loft at impact (i.e. where the face is pointing). Anyway, this also demonstrates why it's easier to curve a driver and why it's easier to control the curve on a 9I (because it won't curve as much).

If you're playing a push-draw as your stock shot (i.e. straight plane lines), you'll get close to these numbers by making pretty literally the same swing but varying ball position (i.e. farther back, path still going out more to the right). If the clubface is only 2 degrees open then the path only goes from 3 right (driver) to about 5-6 with the shorter irons.

And even still these are generalizations. If you're not working the ball the way you want to - it's over-drawing or not drawing enough, or vice versa - then you simply need "more" or "less" of the two controlling pieces - clubface angle and path.

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Originally Posted by iacas

I won't get into the depths of this, but H, here's some more data for you.

td { padding: 5px; text-align: center; }

th { padding: 5px; color: #fff; background: #000; font-weight: bold; text-align: center; }

The "depths" include the fact that the D-Plane helps to shift the path more and more to the right (hitting down on the ball), and the fact that few good golfers get spin lofts of 50+ because they de-loft well enough.

Spin loft is the angle of difference between the two vectors of the d-plane. One vector is the club path at impact, the other is the club's loft at impact (i.e. where the face is pointing). Anyway, this also demonstrates why it's easier to curve a driver and why it's easier to control the curve on a 9I (because it won't curve as much).

If you're playing a push-draw as your stock shot (i.e. straight plane lines), you'll get close to these numbers by making pretty literally the same swing but varying ball position (i.e. farther back, path still going out more to the right). If the clubface is only 2 degrees open then the path only goes from 3 right (driver) to about 5-6 with the shorter irons.

And even still these are generalizations. If you're not working the ball the way you want to - it's over-drawing or not drawing enough, or vice versa - then you simply need "more" or "less" of the two controlling pieces - clubface angle and path.

Thanks for this, Erik.  Explains why it is so hard to shape a lofted club.

All this ball flight discussion got me to thinking about a clinic I attended several years ago.  Mark Calcavecchia was giving a demo at a local club in Vegas, basically as part of a Ping promotion.  Anyway, after his demo, he took questions from the crowd.  I asked him about hitting into left pins, as he is famous for being a fader of the ball.  He said he rarely tries to get fancy in shaping shots into greens, but when he needs to, he doesn't alter his grip open or closed. He just moves his alignment a little open or closed, then swings normally.  I think he said he wasn't smart enough to worry about it too much. Although he said he wasn't very good at it (yeah, sure) he proceeded to hit a couple of beautiful draws, then a couple beautiful fades using a 7 iron or so.

Got me thinking as I played the other day.  I tried his approach.  When I wanted to fade it into the green, I took my standard grip (didn't rotate the grip open, then regrip) and alignment to the target.  Then I just moved my back foot an inch or so closer to the target line so that I now had an open stance.  I tried not to modify my swing in any way.  The results were quite good, the ball didn't move a heck of a lot, but did have the shot shape I wanted.  What I like was that it wasn't a gentle fade, it was an almost straight shot that just fell a little to the right. Very controlled. Whether I subconsciously manipulated my swing, I don't know, but it worked.  I'll give it another try the next time I go out, just to verify.

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Originally Posted by Harmonious

Got me thinking as I played the other day.  I tried his approach.  When I wanted to fade it into the green, I took my standard grip (didn't rotate the grip open, then regrip) and alignment to the target.  Then I just moved my back foot an inch or so closer to the target line so that I now had an open stance.  I tried not to modify my swing in any way.  The results were quite good, the ball didn't move a heck of a lot, but did have the shot shape I wanted.  What I like was that it wasn't a gentle fade, it was an almost straight shot that just fell a little to the right. Very controlled. Whether I subconsciously manipulated my swing, I don't know, but it worked.  I'll give it another try the next time I go out, just to verify.


These physics are the same everywhere on planet earth. I don't know what your normal shot is, but what you did at impact caused the shot you hit to curve the way it did, and it's what the physics and these "new (correct) rules" tell us it will be.

Nick Faldo says aim the clubface at the tree (or the pin directly behind it) and your stance left of it to play a cut, but absolutely 100% no way in heck was his clubface pointed at the tree or the target at impact.

You seem to want to insist that "following their advice and experimenting from there" is the way to go, and I'm simply saying you can skip the experimenting phase and move right on to the application phase. Just skip past the Nick Faldo style advice and begin doing what he actually did , subconsciously or however, when playing those types of shots.

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Originally Posted by Harmonious

Thanks for this, Erik.  Explains why it is so hard to shape a lofted club.

All this ball flight discussion got me to thinking about a clinic I attended several years ago.  Mark Calcavecchia was giving a demo at a local club in Vegas, basically as part of a Ping promotion.  Anyway, after his demo, he took questions from the crowd.  I asked him about hitting into left pins, as he is famous for being a fader of the ball.  He said he rarely tries to get fancy in shaping shots into greens, but when he needs to, he doesn't alter his grip open or closed. He just moves his alignment a little open or closed, then swings normally.  I think he said he wasn't smart enough to worry about it too much. Although he said he wasn't very good at it (yeah, sure) he proceeded to hit a couple of beautiful draws, then a couple beautiful fades using a 7 iron or so.

Got me thinking as I played the other day.  I tried his approach.  When I wanted to fade it into the green, I took my standard grip (didn't rotate the grip open, then regrip) and alignment to the target.  Then I just moved my back foot an inch or so closer to the target line so that I now had an open stance.  I tried not to modify my swing in any way.  The results were quite good, the ball didn't move a heck of a lot, but did have the shot shape I wanted.  What I like was that it wasn't a gentle fade, it was an almost straight shot that just fell a little to the right. Very controlled. Whether I subconsciously manipulated my swing, I don't know, but it worked.  I'll give it another try the next time I go out, just to verify.


this advice has been around for awhile, essentially what you can take from it is that the clubface is going to contradict the path creating curve. You don't have to close the face so much as its pointing to the target but enough to create the spin. The more lofted clubs wont get as much sidespin so you will be able to get away with closing the face or opening it even more, when it comes to clubs that hit higher up on the ball or closer to the equator, you will get alot more side spin instead of underspin. For these clubs dont close or open the face as drastically unless you want some major curving shots

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You guys make all this too complicated.

Hit the ball where you want to go. If you can't do that you'd better learn.  None of us can adequately adjust the face angle accurately enough during a full swing to get it right every time.

The best indicator of hitting a golf ball properly is... does it go where you want it to?

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Originally Posted by ND Fan

You guys make all this too complicated.

Hit the ball where you want to go. If you can't do that you'd better learn.  None of us can adequately adjust the face angle accurately enough during a full swing to get it right every time.

The best indicator of hitting a golf ball properly is... does it go where you want it to?

I dont think anyone is saying to adjust the clubface during the swing but I havent read the thread. Pre-adjust the cluface on the ground behind the ball and let the clubface release on its own during the swing.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

You guys can chose to look at this as a math problem, or you can allow the people to can actually work the ball under pressure describe how that do that? Is this the old "feel isn't real" discussion? Possibly, but when a person is practicing, what exactly does "swing 10 degrees to the right" feel like?

What's your question? Did you see my post? "More" or "Less" are all players have to worry about. But having the correct information is a must.

I hadn't read your post and was asking a rhetorical question of one poster. People throw out specific variables as no-brainers, when they themselves have little chance reproducing those shots on the course. It's sort of, well, annoying, but such is the way these days.

Some of us old school players have decided not to "loose" connection to the way golf was played for generations. I decided that one valid method of self-instruction is to stop throwing away everything that came before as drivel and instead sift through my small golf library and filter out the bits that have actually stood the test of time (like John Jacobs' Practical Golf for example).

When I reason out why some lessons worked (based on the ball flight laws), and why others didn't, it's rather enlightening. Maybe some guys like Jacobs just got lucky, but maybe they actualy did a pretty decent job of interpreting their observations in spite of themselves.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

I hadn't read your post and was asking a rhetorical question of one poster. People throw out specific variables as no-brainers, when they themselves have little chance reproducing those shots on the course. It's sort of, well, annoying, but such is the way these days.

Some of us old school players have decided not to "loose" connection to the way golf was played for generations. I decided that one valid method of self-instruction is to stop throwing away everything that came before as drivel and instead sift through my small golf library and filter out the bits that have actually stood the test of time (like John Jacobs' Practical Golf for example).

When I reason out why some lessons worked (based on the ball flight laws), and why others didn't, it's rather enlightening. Maybe some guys like Jacobs just got lucky, but maybe they actualy did a pretty decent job of interpreting their observations in spite of themselves.


That's fine. Good for you... I'm a bigger fan of instruction from the 50s than I am of instruction from the 80s to the 90s. ;-)

These threads aren't up your alley. I'm getting tired of them as well, but if you're going to self-diagnose problems, or check with your pro on problems, understanding these basics - which let's be honest takes all of ten seconds - is important.

P.S. Jury is still out on whether Jacobs had the right BFL. His instructors are big at "fix the face" over "fix the path" and I could go on and on and on about that, but won't except to say that with a clubface square to the path the old BFL and "correct/new" BFL are both the same.

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Originally Posted by iacas

That's fine. Good for you... I'm a bigger fan of instruction from the 50s than I am of instruction from the 80s to the 90s. ;-)

These threads aren't up your alley. I'm getting tired of them as well, but if you're going to self-diagnose problems, or check with your pro on problems, understanding these basics - which let's be honest takes all of ten seconds - is important.

P.S. Jury is still out on whether Jacobs had the right BFL. His instructors are big at "fix the face" over "fix the path" and I could go on and on and on about that, but won't except to say that with a clubface square to the path the old BFL and "correct/new" BFL are both the same.



When I reread Practical Golf, I like to think Jacobs suspected the existing BFL were off the mark, but he didn't have the proof to refute them. When he described how to work the ball (and to prevent working it - slice prevention) he words things in a very specific way and they work when done as described. Does that make them NBFL friendly?  Maybe I see what I want to see?!?  I've never read his other books or attened a John Jacobs clinic, so if he was dead wrong later on, I'm not aware of it. Maybe I don't want to know.

Regarding instruction from the 80s and 90s - I avoided lessons like the plague in the 90s and I'm glad I did.

Mizuno MP600 driver, Cleveland '09 Launcher 3-wood, Callaway FTiz 18 degree hybrid, Cleveland TA1 3-9, Scratch SS8620 47, 53, 58, Cleveland Classic 2 mid-mallet, Bridgestone B330S, Sun Mountain four5.

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Whats confusing people is when Breed tells you how to shape a ball, what he should be saying is this is how a traditional golfer shapes the ball but if you S&T; this wont work for you. The main difference between S&T; and most other golfers is in the addressing of the ball, when you S&T; you set up to the ball very close to impact conditions "weight on your front foot, hands well forward, club face slightly open", now a traditional golfer sets up to the ball in a neutral position "weight evenly spread, hands slightly forward, club face square" and has to achieve impact position by using his supreme athletic ability, balletic grace and most important his devilishly good looks. Theres two things i can guarantee you in this world, my eyes are green and the second  is if both swings are done correctly impact position will almost be exactly the same

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