Confusing Ball Flight Information - followup

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Forget about ball flight laws for one second what I'm trying to tell people is not to mix together swing mechanics for a one plane, two plane or S&T; swing, whats good for one can be disastrous for another

John, that's not what people are talking about in this thread. The ball flight laws apply regardless of how you swing.

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

All that video shows is when things are taken to extremes it disproves that the original ball flight laws and the new "which are both the same".

PGA Manual of Golf it states that  the ball's starting path will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle

The new ball flight laws backed up by the trackman data says that the ball's starting path will favor the face angle compared to swing path by around 75%

John, it has nothing to do with extremes, and I've already said that the PGA manual was mostly correct but confusing . It wasn't as correct as it could have been by any stretch.

Furthermore, the "old ball flight laws" != what was written in the PGA manual. The "old ball flight laws" are "ball starts where path, finishes where face." They're like what Nick Faldo's talking about in the video.

The PGA Manual didn't say that - it was more correct than incorrect - but it was also "muddier" than necessary as well.

Originally Posted by SpacklersEdge

First off thanks for replying to most of my questions.  This statement above left me a little confused, not sure what the ratios you are describing mean?

Are you saying in the situation I described, you would have 1:1.5 odds of the ball making it back to the line with a driver, but much LESS chance with a PW?

Guess what I am asking is, all angles the same, TL, Clubhead, and swing path, which will go across the line more, less loft or more loft, and why?

Please see the post above where I included a chart. http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/45342/confusing-ball-flight-information-followup/72#post_595709 . It's not about odds - it's a ratio.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Thank you. That's great information. I was hoping someone would proofread that bit and don't worry making things too complicated, just because they're over my head doesn't mean they are for everyone.

James and I did a video on this yesterday.

Basically, again, if your "path" is your alignment, it's the tangent to your plane at low point. So take that as the baseline (black stick in our video).

At every point before low point, the clubhead is still moving down and out (right). The farther back, the more down and the more out it's going. So a driver struck with a level hit is going 0 degrees right, but a pitching wedge struck on a plane oriented in the same exact direction struck with an 8 degree downward angle of attack might still have 3-4 degrees of "out" or "right" to it.

The flatter the plane, at the same location before low point, you hit down less but out more.

The steeper the plane, at the same location before low point, you hit down more but out less.

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by saevel25

lets say its square to the flag, and your swing path is now two degrees closed. The ball will start 0.5 degrees off center, over a 170 yard shot that means if it were to go straight 0.5 degrees it would land 1.7 yards right of the target. But now you have the face closed to your swing path by 2 degrees, which would cause a draw spin. Meaning that the ball doesn't just go out 1.7 yards right and turn 90 degrees left, it will start to curve as soon as the ball lowers in velocity enough to cause spin, your probably looking at hitting the ball left of the flag by quiet a bit. Also, thats assuming you can deliver..

Yes you are right, but people need to know that they should consider there clubface more than there swing path, at a weight of 4 to 1

If we use your calculation and that tells us my ball will fall well left of the flag, but when i actually hit the shot it end up on my target line this video will help you understand why my shot works and every other golfer in history that has used the same technique "body aligned to the right, club face to the target"

video 2

http://johngrahamgolf.com/blog/the-d-plane/

[Zeph]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

If we use your calculation and that tells us my ball will fall well left of the flag, but when i actually hit the shot it end up on my target line this video will help you understand why my shot works and every other golfer in history that has used the same technique "body aligned to the right, club face to the target"

It only works because you did not hit the ball with the clubface aimed at the target. You may think it is and feel that it is, but if the shot started right of the target and curved back to it, the clubface was pointing right of the target at impact. How is it good advice to tell someone "Aim the clubface at the target, but during the swing, make sure it opens a degree or five."? Physics tells us it's the only way to hit that shot, so it doesn't matter what you think or believe you do, the clubface is not aimed at the target at impact if the ball finally lands at the target. You may open the clubface when swinging in to out or something like that. If it works, the clubface is open.

I haven't read or watched all from John Graham, but in this article, he seems to be getting it right. If he says something different in a video, could you be a bit more specific as to where? He goes through so many angles and stuff, it's hard to find.

Quote:

The picture of Sergio (created by James Hirshfield) has been floating around the internet for quite some time and in fact was the start of a major learning moment for yours truly. When I first saw the caption of this picture, I thought that this shot would be a hook and not a shot that landed on target. It lead me to research what is the right relationship needed to curve a ball but still have it land at the target. Was this the right relationship? We all know that no one swing 20 degrees right that plays for a living but is 2 to 1 ratio the correct ratio.

The answer is yes and no. It depends. It depends on the amount of spin loft. Spin loft is a Trackman term for the difference between Dynamic loft and Angle of Attack. Remember, path below is the path of the club at impact and centered contact is assumed.

Here are some hard numbers from Trackman:

10 degrees of Spin Loft (Dr or 3wood) path needs to be 1.5 times farther from the target line than the face

20 degrees of Spin Loft (3I-6I ish) path needs to be 2 times farther from target line than the face

30 degrees of Spin Loft (6I-9I) path needs to be 2.8 times farther from the target than the face

40 degrees of Spin Loft (9I-PW) path needs to be 3.8 times farther from the target line than the face

50 degrees of Spin Loft (SW) path needs to be 5.6 times farther from target line than the face.

[SpacklersEdge]

Please see the post above where I included a chart. http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/45342/confusing-ball-flight-information-followup/72#post_595709 . It's not about odds - it's a ratio.

I'm really starting to enjoy this thread.  So with that chart, if I am correct in reading it, the face angle being 1* off of swing path on a PW will cause a shot that is 5 times as far off target as that same 1* difference shot with a driver, is that the correct way to read it?

EDIT: What I wrote above is not correct, and what Zeph posted with Sergio rally cleared it up.  So essentially to have a target line that point straight at the flag, you need to REALLY swing in to out, with minimal club face closure to get a PW back to the flag.    And with a low lofted club, this is not the case, these ratios make more sense now.  Thanks all.

[SpacklersEdge]

One more question, and perhaps this is a new thread.  But if I aim my target line where I want it to start, and grip the club with clubface pointing well left where I want it to end, it DOES work for me.  So if those laws are incorrect, why does it work?!  Mind taking over and adjusting for what it sees?

[MasterP]

Originally Posted by SpacklersEdge

One more question, and perhaps this is a new thread.  But if I aim my target line where I want it to start, and grip the club with clubface pointing well left where I want it to end, it DOES work for me.  So if those laws are incorrect, why does it work?!  Mind taking over and adjusting for what it sees?

That would be my guess.  Hit enough balls and your mind knows what positions you need to be in to create the desired ball flight.  So if you set up with a face that's closed, but your target is straight down the line your mind is going to force you to open that face at contact.  Subconsiously you know the real laws of physics, you've hit a ton of balls in your life.  Your brain sees that shut clubface and goes, "I've hit a shot like this before, and hooked the snot out of it, let's not do that this time" so you open the clubface on the downswing.

For the better player, who knows how to control his swing and clubface these laws just validate what they've found out on their own.  For beginners and high cap guys these laws become invaluable tools that allow them to diagnose their swing.

Pull slice? - The face isn't the problem, it's the path

Straight push? - Gotta close up the face a little to draw it

Overdraw? - Open the face, swinging out more will just turn that into a bigger draw or duckhook

[johnthejoiner]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

It only works because you did not hit the ball with the clubface aimed at the target. You may think it is and feel that it is, but if the shot started right of the target and curved back to it, the clubface was pointing right of the target at impact. How is it good advice to tell someone "Aim the clubface at the target, but during the swing, make sure it opens a degree or five."? Physics tells us it's the only way to hit that shot, so it doesn't matter what you think or believe you do, the clubface is not aimed at the target at impact if the ball finally lands at the target. You may open the clubface when swinging in to out or something like that. If it works, the clubface is open.

I haven't read or watched all from John Graham, but in this article, he seems to be getting it right. If he says something different in a video, could you be a bit more specific as to where? He goes through so many angles and stuff, it's hard to find.

" I'm going to try and explain it with my very limited golfing terminology, now for the purpose of this demonstration i would like you to put your self into tigers shoes and try this at home. Address the ball as breed explains in his video and I'm going to call this the neutral position, at this moment in time the swing will bottom out at the ball, what i want you to do now is imagine you've swung the club like tiger in his prime and your in the perfect impact position with the hands well forward, the thing that you'll notice is the club is open to the target but its square to your swing path, now this is when the magic starts. A professionals swing will bottom out about four inches in front of the ball after hes done all his wee things, what i want you to do in this experiment is to continue with the swing to about four inches past the ball but make sure its still on the swing path and impact position, you will find that the club has come back square to the target ""2"

Quote:

I posted this on another thread, its a bit tongue in cheek but i was trying to get people to understand where the club face is in relation to the swing path, the club face is not manipulated open it is square to the swing plane. The part that some people don't understand is when i set up to the ball in a neutral position and at that moment in time that is the bottom of my swing,  my club has an angle of attack of 0 degrees but when i swing into my impact zone my swing is going to bottom out 4 inches in-front of the ball with my hand well forward which gives me an angle of attack of something degrees "i don't know my angle of attack"

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

If we use your calculation and that tells us my ball will fall well left of the flag, but when i actually hit the shot it end up on my target line this video will help you understand why my shot works and every other golfer in history that has used the same technique "body aligned to the right, club face to the target"

Zeph gets this one in the first sentence. C'mon John - read what people are writing.

If the clubface is aimed at the target at impact (assuming center contact), any deviation in the path will make the ball miss the target. Period.

Originally Posted by Zeph

It only works because you did not hit the ball with the clubface aimed at the target. You may think it is and feel that it is, but if the shot started right of the target and curved back to it, the clubface was pointing right of the target at impact.

John knows the correct ball flight laws. Again, if you're going to get into d-plane, just consider that they're the ball flight laws in 3D. Base plane line or horizontal swing plane or "swing direction" (I think that's what it is called now) is not the club's path unless you strike the ball at low point .

Originally Posted by SpacklersEdge

I'm really starting to enjoy this thread.  So with that chart, if I am correct in reading it, the face angle being 1* off of swing path on a PW will cause a shot that is 5 times as far off target as that same 1* difference shot with a driver, is that the correct way to read it?

EDIT: What I wrote above is not correct, and what Zeph posted with Sergio rally cleared it up.  So essentially to have a target line that point straight at the flag, you need to REALLY swing in to out, with minimal club face closure to get a PW back to the flag.    And with a low lofted club, this is not the case, these ratios make more sense now.  Thanks all.

Yes, pitching wedges need more in to out to curve the ball the requisite amount.

I forget the ratios but if the driver is 1:1.5 and the pitching wedge is 1:3, then these balls will land at the target (all numbers relative to target line):

Driver: clubface 2 degrees right, path 3 degrees right.

Pitching wedge: clubface 2 degrees right, path 6 degrees right.

Again, that's easier with a wedge because you're also hitting down more... and that's D-Plane stuff.

Originally Posted by SpacklersEdge

One more question, and perhaps this is a new thread.  But if I aim my target line where I want it to start, and grip the club with clubface pointing well left where I want it to end, it DOES work for me.  So if those laws are incorrect, why does it work?!  Mind taking over and adjusting for what it sees?

Yes, you're actually arriving at impact with different conditions. So was Nick Faldo. If you actually arrived at impact like that, you'd start the ball barely right of target (15-20% or so right) and the ball would draw/hook well left of the target.

Originally Posted by MasterP

That would be my guess.  Hit enough balls and your mind knows what positions you need to be in to create the desired ball flight.  So if you set up with a face that's closed, but your target is straight down the line your mind is going to force you to open that face at contact. Subconsiously you know the real laws of physics, you've hit a ton of balls in your life. Your brain sees that shut clubface and goes, "I've hit a shot like this before, and hooked the snot out of it, let's not do that this time" so you open the clubface on the downswing.

Bold part. Right.

P.S. James Hirshfield made that Sergio picture. The numbers aren't accurate - 10 and 20 are way, way too large - but it's more of a picture to drive home a concept or idea than it is to be accurate.

[SpacklersEdge]

Thread Follow Up: So after working all winter through faux swings indoors and mental swings, I was able to get rid of my fade this year and turn it into a draw type swing.  After a couple rounds it started to turn for the worse, into a pull draw.  Of course I tried to correct this by swing MORE in to out, and the problem did not get better.  After reading this thread and digesting last week, I instead made a minor tweak and opened my clubface a few degrees at address, and DID NOT try to swing more in to out.  After these adjustments, I went out hit some great shots this weekend.  I think understanding this thread can help everyone in self-diagnosing their problems.  Target Line (feet) + Divot direction (swing path) + ball starting path (clubface) can pretty much tell you everything.  If you have "too much" curve, then you need to swing less across the TL, and more down it, pull/push, usually a clubface issue, etc.

[saevel25]

Question, what is the obsession with a draw?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Question, what is the obsession with a draw?

Where?

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Question, what is the obsession with a draw?

I think the fascination comes from the first paragraph in the introduction of the book "The Stack and Tilt Swing: The Definitive Guide to the Swing That Is Remaking Golf". It tells us if all of the golf instruction books, videos, and lessons for the last hundred years had taught people to keep their weight on the left side and to swing their hands inward, we would have a generation of golfers drawing the ball instead of slicing. Golf would be a different game. Instead, most instruction today teaches moves that lead not only to a slice but also to hitting the ground behind the ball, which has inhibited the development of players and the game itself

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

I think the fascination comes from the first paragraph in the introduction of the book "The Stack and Tilt Swing: The Definitive Guide to the Swing That Is Remaking Golf". It tells us if all of the golf instruction books, videos, and lessons for the last hundred years had taught people to keep their weight on the left side and to swing their hands inward, we would have a generation of golfers drawing the ball instead of slicing. Golf would be a different game. Instead, most instruction today teaches moves that lead not only to a slice but also to hitting the ground behind the ball, which has inhibited the development of players and the game itself

Do you disagree with that? If so, how? Better to answer that in another thread, though, because for this thread it's OT.

Getting back to this thread, John, perhaps you could answer the several questions others have asked of you in clear and certain terms.

[DeanS]

We played Beat the Pro last Saturday. One of the pros's played with our group. After hitting his tee shot on the 18th he had to hit a draw from a cut lie to get it around a tree and over a lake in order to get it close to the green, which he did. I didn't get a good look at his setup or swing. I believe he setup slightly right of his target to help avoid the tree and hit a 6 iron. His normal swing is inside - out. The ball came out lower than normal for him. I want to say he hit a pull draw but I don't think that's right. From reading this thread I think it more likely he played the ball back in his stance with the club face more square to the target line. Is my estimation correct?

[Zeph]

A draw is ideal because if you swing on your alignment plane and hit the ball before the ground, the club will still be moving out to the right of your target. If you moved the ball forward to the lowpoint and made an identical with a square clubface, it would go straight.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Zeph

A draw is ideal because if you swing on your alignment plane and hit the ball before the ground, the club will still be moving out to the right of your target. If you moved the ball forward to the lowpoint and made an identical with a square clubface, it would go straight.

So if my "good" shots tend to be straight would the same swing give a slight draw simply by moving the ball back an inch or two in my stance? I play every ball from the center of my stance with the exception of the driver. My misses are always right so if moving it back 2 inches can cure some of that I'll be laughing!

PS My weight is 50-50 in the set-up and moves forward at impact, I think ;-)

Feel is not real, but if its consistent who cares?

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

So if my "good" shots tend to be straight would the same swing give a slight draw simply by moving the ball back an inch or two in my stance? I play every ball from the center of my stance with the exception of the driver. My misses are always right so if moving it back 2 inches can cure some of that I'll be laughing!

PS My weight is 50-50 in the set-up and moves forward at impact, I think ;-)

Feel is not real, but if its consistent who cares?

I'm going to have an uneducated guess and say "without seeing your swing" moving your ball back would make your shots go to the right, if you use the same swing. If your normal shot is straight and your bad shots go right, you could be hitting your bad shots with a steeper angle of attack