The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[Lihu]

Interesting info. From our previous conversations I take it CR 75.0 as an average is calculated? 

Yes, it's based upon the course distances.

I kind of doubt that the average PGA course would only be 3 strokes over par for a scratch golfer, though? PGA average drive is about 290 yards, while a scratch is 250 yards. That's about a 600 yard difference?

[natureboy]

Interesting info. From our previous conversations I take it CR 75.0 as an average is calculated? 

 

Yes, it's based upon the course distances.

I kind of doubt that the average PGA course would only be 3 strokes over par for a scratch golfer, though? PGA average drive is about 290 yards, while a scratch is 250 yards. That's about a 600 yard difference? <I think that's one of the reasons they are able to 'go low'>

 

That average of 75 is from the Course ratings listed for the Champ tees for the courses on a single year's tour. My reasoning was that the official scorecard is fairly close to what the tour players see. And those numbers are actual as-is ratings by the ratings teams.

To go from a rating of 72.4 to 75.6, Chambers Bay Sand to Navy course adds about 600 yards of total distance. U.S. Open stats said the champ Teal course maxed out at 7,900 yards so that extra 700 yards would give it a rating of about 78.3-79,3 at the same ratio. I don't think they used the maximum distance on each hole each day. Though they did play around with the normal hole pars to effectively lengthen the course while making use of some forward teeing grounds.

I don't think 'average' PGA events alter the champ setups quite so drastically as the majors due to lack of room for many special / new tee boxes. So I think the non-majors are probably within a stroke or two of official championship tee CR and a few slope points. If I add 1.5 strokes to the official champ rating for the sample of courses I get 76 average. The major tracks are generally tougher to start and more 'tricked up' (~ 3 strokes on CR to bring winning score closer to par) with probably about 80 / 152 on average.

Edited October 15, 2015 by natureboy

[Lihu]

That average of 75 is from the Course ratings listed for the Champ tees for the courses on a single year's tour. My reasoning was that the official scorecard is fairly close to what the tour players see. And those numbers are actual as-is ratings by the ratings teams.

To go from a rating of 72.4 to 75.6, Chambers Bay Navy course adds about 600 yards of total distance. U.S. Open stats said the course maxed out at 7,900 yards so that extra 700 yards would give it a rating of about 79,33 at the same ratio. I don't think they used the maximum distance on each hole each day. Though they did play around with the normal hole pars to effectively lengthen the course while making use of some forward teeing grounds.

I don't think 'average' PGA events alter the champ setups quite so drastically as the majors due to lack of room for many special / new tee boxes. So I think the non-majors are probably within a stroke or two of official championship tee CR and a few slope points. If I add 1.5 strokes to the official champ rating for the sample of courses I get 76 average. The major tracks are generally tougher to start and more 'tricked up' (~ 3.5 strokes on CR to bring winning score closer to par) with probably about 80 / 150 on average.

 

According to some books I've read, the courses are harder than 75. I can't fathom a pro struggling to shoot 68 on my home course which is rated 74.8/134 from the gold tees? In fact, I can't imagine the course being that close to a PGA competition course. I've walked many holes at different 3 tournaments, and the courses all look much harder narrower and longer. A few of the holes at the Byron nelson had a 20 to 30 yard wide swaths where you end up in a lateral hazard if you don't hit first cut.

The wide open holes are really long. 528 yard par 4s are not uncommon. Our longest par 4 is 506 yards from the tips and if you fall off the tee box you end up falling into an asphalt pathway. No one actually plays from 506 yards it's more like 504 yards. http://brooksidegc.com/cw-koiner-course-1

[Lihu]

That average of 75 is from the Course ratings listed for the Champ tees for the courses on a single year's tour. My reasoning was that the official scorecard is fairly close to what the tour players see. And those numbers are actual as-is ratings by the ratings teams.

To go from a rating of 72.4 to 75.6, Chambers Bay Navy course adds about 600 yards of total distance. U.S. Open stats said the course maxed out at 7,900 yards so that extra 700 yards would give it a rating of about 79,33 at the same ratio. I don't think they used the maximum distance on each hole each day. Though they did play around with the normal hole pars to effectively lengthen the course while making use of some forward teeing grounds.

I don't think 'average' PGA events alter the champ setups quite so drastically as the majors due to lack of room for many special / new tee boxes. So I think the non-majors are probably within a stroke or two of official championship tee CR and a few slope points. If I add 1.5 strokes to the official champ rating for the sample of courses I get 76 average. The major tracks are generally tougher to start and more 'tricked up' (~ 3.5 strokes on CR to bring winning score closer to par) with probably about 80 / 150 on average.

 

According to some books I've read, the courses are harder than 75. I can't fathom a pro struggling to shoot 68 on my home course which is rated 74.8/134 from the gold tees? In fact, I can't imagine the course being that close to a PGA competition course. I've walked many holes at different 3 tournaments, and the courses all look much harder narrower and longer. A few of the holes at the Byron nelson had a 20 to 30 yard wide swaths where you end up in a lateral hazard if you don't hit first cut.

The wide open holes are really long. 528 yard par 4s are not uncommon. Our longest par 4 is 506 yards from the tips and if you fall off the tee box you end up falling into an asphalt pathway. No one actually plays from 506 yards it's more like 504 yards. http://brooksidegc.com/cw-koiner-course-1

[WillM]

 

According to some books I've read, the courses are harder than 75. I can't fathom a pro struggling to shoot 68 on my home course which is rated 74.8/134 from the gold tees? In fact, I can't imagine the course being that close to a PGA competition course. I've walked many holes at different 3 tournaments, and the courses all look much harder narrower and longer. A few of the holes at the Byron nelson had a 20 to 30 yard wide swaths where you end up in a lateral hazard if you don't hit first cut.

The wide open holes are really long. 528 yard par 4s are not uncommon. Our longest par 4 is 506 yards from the tips and if you fall off the tee box you end up falling into an asphalt pathway. No one actually plays from 506 yards it's more like 504 yards. http://brooksidegc.com/cw-koiner-course-1

I am attending and playing for Occidental College and have played the Koiner Course a few times... they actually held the LA Open there back in the 60s. I know it is a different era but I think the winning score was something like -12. So comparing that to the scores today I would say the course is middle of the pack in terms of difficulty. Also, keep in mind that for PGA events the course is beefed up for the tourney. A place like Colonial or Pebble Beach would not normally play as hard or narrow - as you say - with thin, wispy rough and greens that aren't rolling quite as fast.

I assume the 506 yard par 4 is #12 you are talking about? That hole is a MFer. I typically hit Driver-hybrid on that hole and am very happy with a par. I am actually close to tour average in distances so there would definitely be some holes that would be difficult for the average tour pro... just maybe not Rory or JDay. Yet somehow they don't win every week... odd

[Lihu]

I am attending and playing for Occidental College and have played the Koiner Course a few times... they actually held the LA Open there back in the 60s. I know it is a different era but I think the winning score was something like -12. So comparing that to the scores today I would say the course is middle of the pack in terms of difficulty. Also, keep in mind that for PGA events the course is beefed up for the tourney. A place like Colonial or Pebble Beach would not normally play as hard or narrow - as you say - with thin, wispy rough and greens that aren't rolling quite as fast.

I assume the 506 yard par 4 is #12 you are talking about? That hole is a MFer. I typically hit Driver-hybrid on that hole and am very happy with a par. I am actually close to tour average in distances so there would definitely be some holes that would be difficult for the average tour pro... just maybe not Rory or JDay. Yet somehow they don't win every week... odd

Yeah, 12. Didn't know the course was used for the LA open. . .

Hope to see you there sometime. I just played course 2 today, but like to play 1 every Thursday and Sunday early mornings.

[WillM]

Yeah, 12. Didn't know the course was used for the LA open. . .

Hope to see you there sometime. I just played course 2 today, but like to play 1 every Thursday and Sunday early mornings.

Yep! 1968. It played as a Par 71 and Billy Casper won at -10.

Perhaps I will see you out there. Always looking for new people to play with, drop me a line if you are ever interested!

[Lihu]

Yep! 1968. It played as a Par 71 and Billy Casper won at -10.

Perhaps I will see you out there. Always looking for new people to play with, drop me a line if you are ever interested!

Interesting, gold tees played as a par 71? Wow! Trying to imagine one of the holes 6, 11 or 15 as a par 4? Probably 15? That's the most likely candidate. . .

Sure, that would be fun. I need to clear my messages to send PM. I'm 208% over my limit.

[Nosevi]

 

According to some books I've read, the courses are harder than 75. I can't fathom a pro struggling to shoot 68 on my home course which is rated 74.8/134 from the gold tees? In fact, I can't imagine the course being that close to a PGA competition course. I've walked many holes at different 3 tournaments, and the courses all look much harder narrower and longer. 

But surely they normally play from the Championship tees which are rated so it's just a case of looking them up and seeing what the rating is? I'll check for a few tournaments in a mo but I can't see them adding a tee box on every hole for each PGA Tour event then digging it out again afterwards and the tee boxes they often use look to be permanent, raised tee boxes. Granted on some courses there are 'special' tees reserved for pros but I thought that was the exception rather than the rule.

Fairway widths for standard PGA Tour events are specified by the tour to average between between 25 - 30 yards wide in the pro landing area which sounds about right for a tough championship course over here so guessing it's the same over there (my course averages 31 yard wide fairways in the landing zone - I'm sad enough that I've measured them). Greens on tour average a diameter of 45 feet or at least they did in 2013 and I can't see them shrinking much over the last couple of years so are probably slightly bigger target than average (my course averages 38 feet diameter greens so as an area to hit it's significantly smaller than an average course played on tour). 

Point is they don't create new courses for the tour events, they just play from a long way back. Again 2013 but the average length of course played on the PGA Tour that year was 7227 yards - pretty long. 7800 or 7900 yard setups are quite rare and in fact other setups have to be below the 7227 yard average to make up for those that are above it (at least in 2013 they did)

How does this all relate to Dan? It is 'his' thread so maybe we better drag it back on topic   A course like Riverside doesn't have 30 yard wide fairways and isn't 7227 yards long so it's not representative to how you need to strike your shots into a green. What I do on my course to get a feel for playing a longer setup is move the ball back from every drive I hit and tee the ball behind the tee boxes on the par 3s. For the tour I'm aiming at it's only 9 yards a hole compared to the distances they played this year. If I was aiming at PGA Tour it'd be closer to 30 yards a hole so about the same as Riverside (although I think the fairways are a tad more generous and rough looks nothing like as penal). 

It's just something I do to get used to playing a longer setup and I think Dan could do the same. 

[Lihu]

I wonder if Dan plans to go to the golf challenge in Vegas?

[Nosevi]

I wonder if Dan plans to go to the golf challenge in Vegas?

Can't see why not if he has an invite (take it it's by invite only?). Don't they do putting challenges and chipping challenges etc. ie stuff he can do without making a full swing? If he does and just does short game it'll be interesting to see how he gets on.

[nevets88]

Jim says:

October 14, 2015 at 7:42 am

I think you owe your readers an update.

http://thedanplan.com/another-positive-sign/comment-page-1/#comment-93964 

[natureboy]

 

According to some books I've read, the courses are harder than 75. I can't fathom a pro struggling to shoot 68 on my home course which is rated 74.8/134 from the gold tees? In fact, I can't imagine the course being that close to a PGA competition course. I've walked many holes at different 3 tournaments, and the courses all look much harder narrower and longer. A few of the holes at the Byron nelson had a 20 to 30 yard wide swaths where you end up in a lateral hazard if you don't hit first cut.

The wide open holes are really long. 528 yard par 4s are not uncommon. Our longest par 4 is 506 yards from the tips and if you fall off the tee box you end up falling into an asphalt pathway. No one actually plays from 506 yards it's more like 504 yards. http://brooksidegc.com/cw-koiner-course-1

 

You could well be right. It's an estimate, trying to start from an actual measurement of the 'official' CR. Some of my numbers for courses may be off because I couldn't find a current scorecard when I did it.

Adding 1.5 strokes to the official CR to a season-like sample of actual tour courses played (which includes 'easier' tracks like Torrey North) gave me an average CR of 76.3. Four over par seems pretty tough to me and the field still averages about a stroke under par. Some of the courses in the sample are much tougher than the average and some are easier. The tweaked slope averages out to 142.3. As I understand it, the slope is almost meaningless to the pro field unless it gets very high. It makes much more of a difference to you and me. I could hope for Bogey on a 500+ par 4, but it wouldn't be likely.

Average CR of 76 (excluding majors) seems to agree decently with field scoring average and expected HCP ranges of the pros. Would you agree that the major setups are much tougher than typical tour tracks? Do you think it's more reasonable that they play on average closer to an 80 with a 152 slope (noticeable to them) or an 85? I'm not sure the courses get long enough to play to that high a CR and I believe that is the primary determinant for CR.

What's your best guess from the books you've read? What was the official yardage for the course during the Byron Nelson. Did you compare to the scorecard? Was that tight driving area normal or special for the tournament? How much do you think they raised the rating? What was the field scoring average?

On your course, my best guess is the 'field' would average between 69 and 70. Easily - not struggling. They could all go much lower at times, but sometimes they would miss putts and make mistakes from the tee even on an easier track so their average score would be many strokes higher than their potential low scores. BTW, what's the significance of the falling off the tee box reference?

Edited October 15, 2015 by natureboy

[Lihu]

 

Hidden Content

I have the Byron Nelson scorecard/yardage in a little booklet, but no CR. However, my reasoning is much more simplistic. I simply look at the average PGA tour "handicap" of +4 and just add 4 strokes to the CR.

The books I've read are like Nicklaus's books and also books like "Tin Cup Dreams" about a "long shot" Esteban Toledo on the PGA tour and such.

However, I already recanted as @WillM already confirmed that the courses are about 75.

[Lihu]

 

Hidden Content

I have the Byron Nelson scorecard/yardage in a little booklet, but no CR. However, my reasoning is much more simplistic. I simply look at the average PGA tour "handicap" of +4 and just add 4 strokes to the CR.

The books I've read are like Nicklaus's books and also books like "Tin Cup Dreams" about a "long shot" Esteban Toledo on the PGA tour and such.

However, I already recanted as @WillM already confirmed that the courses are about 75.

[Nosevi]

Regarding Majors, Augusta National was unofficially rated during the 2010 Masters by some guys who rate courses for a living. The course then measured almost exactly the same as it was advertised as measuring this year and the team came up with a rating of 78.1

[Shorty]

Can we please get this thread back on topic?

 

Let's see if this comment is "moderated"....

Your comment is awaiting moderation. 

October 15, 2015 at 12:10 pm

So….
is it about golf or is it about media appearances and column inches? In your interviews you never corrrect misconceptions about your progress and never respond to comments here unless they are by non golfers who don’t see what’s really happening here.
If you have given up, that’s fine. Come out and admit it. You seem to have very little or no respect for the many people who have donated and/or followed this site. Your injury does not stop you from posting updates.

 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Shorty

[Lihu]

Can we please get this thread back on topic?

 

Let's see if this comment is "moderated"....

Your comment is awaiting moderation. 

October 15, 2015 at 12:10 pm

So….
is it about golf or is it about media appearances and column inches? In your interviews you never corrrect misconceptions about your progress and never respond to comments here unless they are by non golfers who don’t see what’s really happening here.
If you have given up, that’s fine. Come out and admit it. You seem to have very little or no respect for the many people who have donated and/or followed this site. Your injury does not stop you from posting updates.

 

There's a lot more to this injury I suppose?

However, I can imagine if you don't do it right and try to get longer distances that you could seriously injure yourself. . .Maybe that's made him bitter?