The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I don't believe you are "born with it".

I do.

As Dave says often, he'll never be able to jump as high as Michael Jordan can still probably jump a minute after he gets out of bed. Some players have speed. Some don't.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I think it is a true statement that any infant is capable of anything.

Surely you are kidding.

All of the kids in the neighborhood get together every afternoon on the vacant lot for a baseball or football game and one in the bunch can run faster, jump higher, and hit and kick harder than all of the rest of them, by far. They are all the same. They all play the same amount. One turns out to be a Bo Jackson, Hank Aaron, or Willie Mays and the rest work at the local factory.

I've coached kids that grew up on the ball field, went to all of the best camps and clinics, and had fathers or mothers that lived and breathed the game and took up time every single day with their sons. I can't count the times I would get a kid without a father (or had one that didn't care enough to ever even play a game of catch), that never went to a clinic or had any coaching and knew very little about how to play the game, that quickly far surpassed the other kids. They could just play.

My brothers grew up playing the same games, working in the same fields, eating the same foods and going to the same schools as I did. Athletically we are all as different as night and day. One brother had no power but decent speed and was a pretty good high school shortstop and singles hitter. The other had decent power but didn't run very fast and never had the eye hand coordination to be very good baseball player, but was a heck of a high school linebacker who packed some punch. I could run faster, jump higher, throw and hit harder than either one of them and was always pretty good (but not great) at any sport I ever tried to play (until golf). In the words from Good Will Hunting "When it came to that I could just play".

[Bogeysaurus]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I think it is a true statement that any infant is capable of anything.  I do not believe some infants, absent deformities, "can't" make the tour.

Its ridiculous to believe that Tiger Woods just happened to be both born to a parental couple that emphasized athletics, specifically golf from age 2, AND was born with a huge amount of natural talent.  We just think its "natural" because it is developed incredibly early in life.

Clearly this is wrong.  Not just due to the incredible amounts of empirical evidence that suggests the exact opposite but because of what we know about genetics.  The same incredulity applicable if someone suggested any infant is capable of growing to any adult height, having any natural hair color, any skin pigmentation etc should and can equally be applied to your claim.

I can't fathom how this type of belief can be held today knowing all we do about genetics.  We know what genes produce specific physical traits but "you aren't born with it"...

Regarding Tiger Woods being both talented and having parents that emphasized and fostered athletics isn't ridiculous at all.  There are millions of other examples that might have turned out like Tiger Woods that had parents that fostered athletics and had fairly talented kids but we don't know them because they just weren't good enough.  There is nothing ridiculous about this at all.

I didn't work for my eye color, my hair color, my height, my reflexes, my bone structure or my disposition toward certain disease or illness but if I happen to be good at something that I worked for...

[Williamevanl]

Originally Posted by Bogeysaurus

Clearly this is wrong.  Not just due to the incredible amounts of empirical evidence that suggests the exact opposite but because of what we know about genetics.  The same incredulity applicable if someone suggested any infant is capable of growing to any adult height, having any natural hair color, any skin pigmentation etc should and can equally be applied to your claim.

I can't fathom how this type of belief can be held today knowing all we do about genetics.  We know what genes produce specific physical traits but "you aren't born with it"...

Regarding Tiger Woods being both talented and having parents that emphasized and fostered athletics isn't ridiculous at all.  There are millions of other examples that might have turned out like Tiger Woods that had parents that fostered athletics and had fairly talented kids but we don't know them because they just weren't good enough.  There is nothing ridiculous about this at all.

I didn't work for my eye color, my hair color, my height, my reflexes, my bone structure or my disposition toward certain disease or illness but if I happen to be good at something that I worked for...

X2, I work in genomics for a Biotech company. It's a billion dollar industry which is basically just figuring out which genes correlate to a plant being better at something. If the plant has X genes it's better at surviving drought, if it has Y genes it's more disease resistant. It's absolutely crazy to think that there aren't genes that confer pretty measurable advantages for all sports.

I guess people that believe otherwise must not understand genetics or not believe that there could variations in a population that would confer certain advantages for golf.

Hypothetically, If there was money to be made, we would sequence humans, have them play golf, determine the genetic traits that were key to being great (quality trait loci), continually funnel out ones that weren't good and ultimately create a race of super human golfers. Just like breeding corn or different dog breeds, no amount of work will allow a beagle to outrun a greyhound.

[jaysquared]

You guys act like you need to run fast, jump high, have a rocket arm, elite quickness to play golf.. Have you guys seen the physique of some of these guys on tour? Ever wonder how guys that are 40+ and 50+ are still able to compete with youngsters on tour? You guys ever see 50 year olds still competeting in the NFL, MLB, NBA?? Don't get me wrong golf is a very difficult game but you don't need elite athletiscm to play it.. I think with golf is a typical which came first chicken or the egg scenario.. Was a players skill come from talent or was it yers of hard work and training.. If you look at most of the guys on your they've been playing since they were kids. So it's not like the guys stated playing he game at 21 and shot par the very first time they played..

[Williamevanl]

Originally Posted by jaysquared

You guys act like you need to run fast, jump high, have a rocket arm, elite quickness to play golf.. Have you guys seen the physique of some of these guys on tour? Ever wonder how guys that are 40+ and 50+ are still able to compete with youngsters on tour? You guys ever see 50 year olds still competeting in the NFL, MLB, NBA?? Don't get me wrong golf is a very difficult game but you don't need elite athletiscm to play it.. I think with golf is a typical which came first chicken or the egg scenario.. Was a players skill come from talent or was it yers of hard work and training.. If you look at most of the guys on your they've been playing since they were kids. So it's not like the guys stated playing he game at 21 and shot par the very first time they played..

Like clockwork, I just always know somebody is going to say something like this. It's not that you have to have "these things" to be a professional golfer. You can be a 5' 1'' 350 lb anything and still have the genes that confer some advantage for golf. (or anything for that matter) Maybe think of it in terms of darts, there is something about the worlds best dart players that make them better than everyone else.

It's obviously the not the tallest, strongest, fastest etc.. but it's still something. I've said it before but I would guess it has more to do with steadiness, rhythmiciy, spacial awareness etc..

You guys have to realize, even if it were throwing a ping pong ball in a 5 gallon bucket from 10 feet, there's a genetic advantage that some would have over others. You are completely missing the point, we could be talking about drawing the most perfect circle on a chalkboard, there are genetic components to that that would make one person better than another.

You just seem incredibly simple minded, "um there are just strength, speed and stamina... that's it", That's obviously not the case.

[Bogeysaurus]

Originally Posted by jaysquared

You guys act like you need to run fast, jump high, have a rocket arm, elite quickness to play golf.. Have you guys seen the physique of some of these guys on tour? Ever wonder how guys that are 40+ and 50+ are still able to compete with youngsters on tour? You guys ever see 50 year olds still competeting in the NFL, MLB, NBA?? Don't get me wrong golf is a very difficult game but you don't need elite athletiscm to play it.. I think with golf is a typical which came first chicken or the egg scenario.. Was a players skill come from talent or was it yers of hard work and training.. If you look at most of the guys on your they've been playing since they were kids. So it's not like the guys stated playing he game at 21 and shot par the very first time they played..

This was covered about 2 pages back.  Sure golf doesn't require the same stratospheric physical prowess as the other sports you mentioned.  However it does require incredible muscle memory.  It does require a nervous system that can with superb resolution control and manipulate the muscles to create the perfect shot repeatedly.  A different talent is beneficial for golf than other sports but an innate talent nonetheless.  And I don't think anyone is claiming that talent alone is all that is required and anyone can walk off the street and shoot par.  The idea is pretty simple; you are born with specific abilities that with practice can be honed to a maximum level for those abilities.  For some you end up with Tiger for others you end up with a life long hacker that breaking 100 would be an achievement.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by jaysquared

You guys act like you need to run fast, jump high, have a rocket arm, elite quickness to play golf.. Have you guys seen the physique of some of these guys on tour? Ever wonder how guys that are 40+ and 50+ are still able to compete with youngsters on tour? You guys ever see 50 year olds still competeting in the NFL, MLB, NBA?? Don't get me wrong golf is a very difficult game but you don't need elite athletiscm to play it..

Each attribute one has makes it that much easier to compete in golf. The physical attributes are just a part of it. Any player on Tour would take Dustin Johnson or Gary Woodland's vertical leap and explosiveness if they could snap their fingers and have it. For each part of physical prowess they don't have they have to be that much better at the smaller things that are mentally creative or coordination based. That's a talent also. As I said before some people can "just play". They are good at everything from Tiddlywinks to Mumbly Peg. They were when they were young and they are when they are older.

That's not only true in golf; it's evident in every sport. John Tudor and Greg Maddox would have loved to have been able to throw the ball 100 mph, but they couldn't, so they had to be better than everybody else at painting the corners and using the deception of a changeup. Fred Biletnikoff would have loved to be able to run a 4.2 40, but he couldn't, so he had to be the best route runner and have hands that could catch everything they could touch. Does that mean any one of us could have matched them if we only started early and practiced? Not any more than we could have been Mozart or Bethoven simply by choosing to do so.

I will agree that one can be a pretty good golfer with very limited measurable athletic ability compared to most sports...But to compete with the best one has to be much better at the non-physical aspects and they better be able to "just play". The athletes on top now are not the same as 30 years ago from a physical standpoint so crossing that line strictly on the intangibles gets harder all the time.

40+ and 50+ people really don't "compete with the youngsters on tour" that well on a consistent basis. The ones that were very, very good can have certain weeks when everything goes right and they catch a bit of their old glory but they can't do it as consistently as when they were younger, and remember they were always very good and could "just play".

The nature of team sports doesn't allow us to see if a retired player could occasionally catch a bit of their old magic and go four for four with a couple of home runs, or throw a game winning touchdown pass. I'm sure the best ones could, but not on a consistent enough basis for a spot on the roster and a salary.

[Unkynd]

guess we aren't taking about dan anymore in this thread. Turned into a nature/nurture debate, which I understand is three principle behind the theory that dan is testing....but I'm honestly more intrigued with dan than the theory.

[onesome]

Originally Posted by Unkynd

guess we aren't taking about dan anymore in this thread. Turned into a nature/nurture debate, which I understand is three principle behind the theory that dan is testing....but I'm honestly more intrigued with dan than the theory.

Your right, and Dan doesn't have it and will come up short in the end. I personally have no ill will towards the guy it's just it's obvious to me and others hes not talented enough at this game.

[TJBam]

Wish I had enough dough to retire for six years and play golf every day.  Dan is an internet exhibitionist who is living off of his inherited riches and puts on an "enlightened journey" front when we all know he is just a spoiled brat that retired at age 30 something to play golf every day.  Oooh Dan how manly and enlightened you are!! Tell me more about following your dream!  How much $ does it cost to follow your dream bud?  Living expenses for 6 years in Portland, OR?  Must not be cheap.

This guy is hogwash and will NEVER make it.  He is just "transitioning" into a daddy-funded early retirement.  What a brat.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by TJBam

Wish I had enough dough to retire for six years and play golf every day.  Dan is an internet exhibitionist who is living off of his inherited riches and puts on an "enlightened journey" front when we all know he is just a spoiled brat that retired at age 30 something to play golf every day.  Oooh Dan how manly and enlightened you are!! Tell me more about following your dream!  How much $ does it cost to follow your dream bud?  Living expenses for 6 years in Portland, OR?  Must not be cheap.

This guy is hogwash and will NEVER make it.  He is just "transitioning" into a daddy-funded early retirement.  What a brat.

lol

[geauxforbroke]

Originally Posted by TJBam

Wish I had enough dough to retire for six years and play golf every day.  Dan is an internet exhibitionist who is living off of his inherited riches and puts on an "enlightened journey" front when we all know he is just a spoiled brat that retired at age 30 something to play golf every day.  Oooh Dan how manly and enlightened you are!! Tell me more about following your dream!  How much $ does it cost to follow your dream bud?  Living expenses for 6 years in Portland, OR?  Must not be cheap.

This guy is hogwash and will NEVER make it.  He is just "transitioning" into a daddy-funded early retirement.  What a brat.

So I take it you won't be donating to the Dan Plan?

[Jeremie Boop]

I've always had a propensity to be good at most things I do, however I end up getting bored and moving on most times. Golf is one thing I've not had the time or money to really maximize how good I can get at it. I think this is the main hurdle to most people who play golf getting as good as they can.

I think I could really get to scratch golf if I put in even a decent amount of time and money. However at 30+ per round and needing 2 to 3 rounds of golf a week in addition to time at the range at 15.50 per large bucket, figure that another 2 or 3 times a week. I make pretty decent money but dropping close to 200 a week on golf just doesn't work for me. Next year I'm hoping to just purchase a membership somewhere so that it frees up the majority of costs. At that point I can either put a little more time in at the range and get some instruction or get a true total club and ball fitting.

[MacDutch]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I've

bla di bla.......

I think I ....

Are you Dan from the Dan plan? If not, why so much I in your post?

[David in FL]

I see that the CC that had granted Dan free playing privileges has opted not to extend that. He now has to pay for membership at a new course. Not sure, but it feels like his whole momentum seems to be stalling. Could be some money problems....... He also hasn't updated his hcp or other stats on the website since the first of June. I did a quick GHIN lookup and see that his index is 5.4 as of 15 July. Pretty much unchanged from 1 June when it was 5.5. This summer is gonna tell a lot.......will he get significantly past that 5 hcp barrier that beats back so many of us?

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by MacDutch

Are you Dan from the Dan plan? If not, why so much I in your post?

Other people have made comments regarding their own "prowess" or "abilities" in relation to what they think this guy can do. Didn't realize what I did was so dissimilar.

[Williamevanl]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I see that the CC that had granted Dan free playing privileges has opted not to extend that. He now has to pay for membership at a new course. Not sure, but it feels like his whole momentum seems to be stalling. Could be some money problems.......

He also hasn't updated his hcp or other stats on the website since the first of June. I did a quick GHIN lookup and see that his index is 5.4 as of 15 July. Pretty much unchanged from 1 June when it was 5.5. This summer is gonna tell a lot.......will he get significantly past that 5 hcp barrier that beats back so many of us?

No, he just played in a 3 day tournament and shot **pulls out calculator** 15+26+15= +56. He was 56 over par after 3 days! (87, 98, 87). Holy @^$#! He said he hit 3 fairways over 3 days.