Ball falls off the tee after a missed stroke

[Zeph]

Clear? Not at all.

First you say the player makes a stroke on the ball and it is in play . Then you say he bumps it off the tee and it is still in play. When does the ball stop being in play? And why can't a ball place itself?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

20-3a/3 Whether Ball Must Be Replaced If Other Rule Applies

Q. If a Rule requires a ball at rest that was moved to be replaced (e.g., Rule 18-2a), must the player replace the ball if he wishes to proceed under another Rule that involves dropping or placing the ball in another place (e.g., Rule 24-2)?

A. No. If a player is proceeding under a Rule that requires him to replace the ball but another Rule applies, he may proceed directly under the other Rule. The ruling would be the same even if the original spot were not known, in which case the estimated position of the ball would be the reference point for proceeding under the other Rule.

Note the part that I put in bold.  To proceed infers that he is taking some action involving the procedure for the rule he wants to claim.  If he plays the ball as it lies after the bump, he has taken no action, nor has he made any declaration of a change in procedure.  He is merely playing a stroke at a ball which is currently lying in a wrong place.

Rule 18-2 requires that he replace the ball after causing it to move.  The only way he can be absolved of this requirement is to directly proceed under another rule.  He must do something to indicate that he has changed the procedure he is following, or it must be assumed that he is still proceeding in a linear fashion, i.e. continuing play with the ball from the wrong place.  He cannot just step up and hit the ball, then when told he has incurred a 2 stroke penalty, change his mind and say that he was invoking Rule 28 in order to erase a penalty stroke.  This would be contrary to both the spirit and the intent of Rule 18-2.

[zeg]

Again, this Decision quite clearly says: '.. dropping or placing the ball in another place..'. So, in another place . Not possible to leave the ball where it is and simultaneously invoke another Rule.

Yes, and I pointed out why that is not imoportant. You don't read Decisions like you read Rules: they are examples and guidance, not a definition of the game. So, as I said before, I think the meat of this decision is that when you're playing under a rule that would require replacement but you would then be allowed to put it somewhere else, you don't have to go through the motion. That it is restricted to those particular cases in the Decision doesn't mean we are strictly limited to those cases. Under Equity, I believe we should apply the same logic to this case. [quote name="Ignorant"]Another argument I already mentioned before. If a player would do the same thing on the fairway, is there any rational reason why ruling should be different? That is, drive onto the fairway, moving the ball in play while addressing it, picking the ball up and returning to the tee and another drive. Now lying three or four? Why a player should be absolved from a penalty incurred due to moving his ball in play in either case?[/quote] This would be the same ruling: four. Stroke, bump penalty, stroke-and-distance, stroke. [quote name="Ignorant" url="/forum/thread/46058/ball-falls-off-the-tee-after-a-missed-stroke/18#post_599348"]As it is completely impossible to have a ball in play and at the same time not in play it is clear that whenever a player wants to tee a new ball it MUST be a ball not in play. Had the player lifted his ball from the ground it would have stopped being in play and he could have re-teed it, with a tee or without. As he did not lift it and did not purposely place it on the teeing ground his ball remains a ball in play and if he playes it from there he will be playing from wrong place and receive 2 penalties.[/quote] Why is it clear that it must not be a ball in play? I don't see any rule to that effect (though if there is, please correct me). There is no mention of this in 20-5, it only says that if your previous spot was on the teeing ground, your nearest spot is anywhere on the teeing ground. It also says you may re-tee it, but there is nothing in the rules that says re-teeing takes a ball out of play, or that it requires a ball to be out of play. So if you play according to this method (without lifting the ball) you're making a stroke at a ball in play. But that's fine, although you would be subject to penalties since the ball you're addressing is in play.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Rule 18-2 requires that he replace the ball after causing it to move.  The only way he can be absolved of this requirement is to directly proceed under another rule.  He must do something to indicate that he has changed the procedure he is following, or it must be assumed that he is still proceeding in a linear fashion, i.e. continuing play with the ball from the wrong place.  He cannot just step up and hit the ball, then when told he has incurred a 2 stroke penalty, change his mind and say that he was invoking Rule 28 in order to erase a penalty stroke.  This would be contrary to both the spirit and the intent of Rule 18-2.

But the rules doesn't say you have to do anything. It just says you have to play from the teeing ground. Doesn't say you have to pick the ball up or anything, just that you play from the teeing ground. He should of course tell everyone what he's doing first (though that may not be required either), but the way I read the rules, I don't see that it's not allowed. If it is, the rules don't express it very well.

I agree that it sounds weird, but that's how I interpred the rules. If someone can find a paragraph that specifically states that you have to lift, move or touch the ball when taking stroke and distance on the teeing ground, I'll read it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Zeph

But the rules doesn't say you have to do anything. It just says you have to play from the teeing ground. Doesn't say you have to pick the ball up or anything, just that you play from the teeing ground. He should of course tell everyone what he's doing first (though that may not be required either), but the way I read the rules, I don't see that it's not allowed. If it is, the rules don't express it very well.

I agree that it sounds weird, but that's how I interpred the rules. If someone can find a paragraph that specifically states that you have to lift, move or touch the ball when taking stroke and distance on the teeing ground, I'll read it.

You miss the point.  To be following a procedure under the Rules of Golf, you have to take some action or make a declaration to indicate that you have deviated from the procedure which you were previously following.  If you do nothing, then you haven't changed the procedure.  You are trying to create a free pass where none exists.

The player was playing his tee shot.  He missed the ball.  He is still playing his tee shot, even though it's now his second stroke.  He bumps the ball while taking his stance.  He is required to replace the ball.  He has done nothing to change the fact that he is still working on playing his tee shot. He plays a stroke at the ball as it lies.  He has now incurred a 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place.  He has done nothing to change the fact that this is a continuing attempt to play the ball from the tee.  He has not invoked Rule 28.  He has not taken a stroke and distance penalty because he has not moved the ball from where it lay after he bumped it.  You cannot just give him the benefit of the doubt after the fact.  The rules don't work that way.  It is imperative that he does something which can be interpreted as having changed his intent from playing the tee shot to invoking Rule 28.

There are many cases in the rules where the player's intent must be indicated before action is taken.  Just because it isn't directly stated in this case doesn't mean that such a stipulation doesn't apply.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must,

This says he "deems his ball".  That indicates that he must do something which changes his procedure from playing the ball as it lies to following a penalty procedure.  There is no option under this rule which allows the player to take a penalty stroke and still play the ball as it lies.

[Zeph]

I see what you write, but I still don't see anywhere in the rules that you have to do anything. You can deem your ball to be unplayable without touching it. I agree that just hitting the ball without saying anything to the people in your group is not OK, but I still don't see anywhere in the rules that you have to physically do anything to the ball.

Here is the chain of rules taking place.

1: He deems his ball unplayable. Deem does not mean you have to touch the ball or move it.

Quote:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must,
under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

2: He decides to play a ball as nearly as possible from the spot which the original ball was played. Rule 20-5 tells us how to proceed.

Quote:

20-5. Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made

When a player elects or is required to make his next stroke from where a previous stroke was made, he must proceed as follows:

a. On the Teeing Ground: The ball to be played must be played from within the teeing ground. It may be played from anywhere within the teeing ground and may be teed.

Again, nothing states that you have to move, touch or lift the ball when using this rule. I have not seen any wording in a general rule that you have to move the ball when using a rule. Each rule specify if you have to drop or place the ball, in this case it only say "play".

One might even argue that you don't have to inform the group you play with of what you are doing. The rules specifically says when you are playing a provisional that you have to inform your fellow-competitor, but not when taking a stroke and distance penalty. Though, you are responsible for your own scorecard, which others are going to confirm. So it is probably best to inform fellow-competitors of this, but the rules doesn't say you have to.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Again, this Decision quite clearly says: '.. dropping or placing the ball in another place..'. So, in another place. Not possible to leave the ball where it is and simultaneously invoke another Rule.

Yes, and I pointed out why that is not imoportant. You don't read Decisions like you read Rules: they are examples and guidance, not a definition of the game. So, as I said before, I think the meat of this decision is that when you're playing under a rule that would require replacement but you would then be allowed to put it somewhere else, you don't have to go through the motion. That it is restricted to those particular cases in the Decision doesn't mean we are strictly limited to those cases. Under Equity, I believe we should apply the same logic to this case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Another argument I already mentioned before. If a player would do the same thing on the fairway, is there any rational reason why ruling should be different? That is, drive onto the fairway, moving the ball in play while addressing it, picking the ball up and returning to the tee and another drive. Now lying three or four? Why a player should be absolved from a penalty incurred due to moving his ball in play in either case?

This would be the same ruling: four. Stroke, bump penalty, stroke-and-distance, stroke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

As it is completely impossible to have a ball in play and at the same time not in play it is clear that whenever a player wants to tee a new ball it MUST be a ball not in play. Had the player lifted his ball from the ground it would have stopped being in play and he could have re-teed it, with a tee or without. As he did not lift it and did not purposely place it on the teeing ground his ball remains a ball in play and if he playes it from there he will be playing from wrong place and receive 2 penalties.

Why is it clear that it must not be a ball in play? I don't see any rule to that effect (though if there is, please correct me). There is no mention of this in 20-5, it only says that if your previous spot was on the teeing ground, your nearest spot is anywhere on the teeing ground.

It also says you may re-tee it, but there is nothing in the rules that says re-teeing takes a ball out of play, or that it requires a ball to be out of play. So if you play according to this method (without lifting the ball) you're making a stroke at a ball in play. But that's fine, although you would be subject to penalties since the ball you're addressing is in play.

Ok, I bolded the essential one.

First, let us look at the Definition:

Ball in Play
A ball is “in play” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of
bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.

So, a teed ball is never in play until it has been made a stroke at. This means directly that a teed ball can NEVER be a ball in play. I will not repeat this any longer, it must be clear to everyone by now.

Then, a ball in play is taken out of play when it is 'holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted'. In the case at hand none of these definitions are valid as the player did not take any action to render his ball out of play; he did not lift it or replace it with another ball. As fourputt pointed out, it is not in the spirit of this game for a player to make escape routes by changing his mind after he has done something in order to reduce the penalties, ther are also some Decisions supporting this view. When one is teeing a ball it must be done in a manner that leaves no doubt to anyone what has been done. This is not described in the Rules but it is clearly the intention and certainly according to the spirit of golf.

At this point I would like to refer to one of my earlier posts and say that it might be well worth while to define placing a ball more accurately. Even though this discussion may seem academic these things actually happen once in a while, and when it happens there must be a way to come to a solid conclusion, preferably supported by the Rules of Golf.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I see what you write, but I still don't see anywhere in the rules that you have to do anything. You can deem your ball to be unplayable without touching it. I agree that just hitting the ball without saying anything to the people in your group is not OK, but I still don't see anywhere in the rules that you have to physically do anything to the ball.

Here is the chain of rules taking place.

1: He deems his ball unplayable. Deem does not mean you have to touch the ball or move it.

2: He decides to play a ball as nearly as possible from the spot which the original ball was played. Rule 20-5 tells us how to proceed.

Again, nothing states that you have to move, touch or lift the ball when using this rule. I have not seen any wording in a general rule that you have to move the ball when using a rule. Each rule specify if you have to drop or place the ball, in this case it only say "play".

One might even argue that you don't have to inform the group you play with of what you are doing. The rules specifically says when you are playing a provisional that you have to inform your fellow-competitor, but not when taking a stroke and distance penalty. Though, you are responsible for your own scorecard, which others are going to confirm. So it is probably best to inform fellow-competitors of this, but the rules doesn't say you have to.

But nowhere in Rule 28 does it say that you may play the ball as it lies.  There are 3 options, but all require that the ball be moved from its current location.  It is contrary to both the spirit and the intent of the rule that you passively deem the ball unplayable, then play it as it lies and still try to claim that you were following Rule 28.  You believe what you like, but there is no competent tournament committee in the world which would not rule against you if you were to try this sort of subterfuge.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Ball in Play

A ball is “in play” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of

bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.

So, a teed ball is never in play until it has been made a stroke at. This means directly that a teed ball can NEVER be a ball in play. I will not repeat this any longer, it must be clear to everyone by now.

Where does it say that a teed ball is never in play? It says that as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground, it is in play. By definition, he has made a stroke, which means the ball is in play. The rules does not say that a teed ball is never in play. It would be out of play if he lifted the ball and re-teed it, but not when it remains on the ground.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Then, a ball in play is taken out of play when it is 'holed, except when it is lost, out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted'. In the case at hand none of these definitions are valid as the player did not take any action to render his ball out of play; he did not lift it or replace it with another ball. As fourputt pointed out, it is not in the spirit of this game for a player to make escape routes by changing his mind after he has done something in order to reduce the penalties, ther are also some Decisions supporting this view. When one is teeing a ball it must be done in a manner that leaves no doubt to anyone what has been done. This is not described in the Rules but it is clearly the intention and certainly according to the spirit of golf.

I don't care about the spirit of the game, we are talking about rules here. And he does not change his mind to reduce penalites. He decides before hitting the ball that he would like to take stroke and distance. He is free to do this at any time during the round. He is actually giving himself an extra penalty stroke since he could have put the ball back on the tee and hit it without being penalized.

It all comes down to intention and whether he informed the fellow-competitors or marker. When the ball lies like it does, there are two options. One is stroke and penalty, the other is wrong place. I agree that if he just hits the ball without considering the situation and informing competitors, he should get wrong place penalty. But he is allowed according to the rules to hit the ball where it lies under stroke and distance. It is however not clearly defined since he is not required to inform the others. Which means that this situation could actually happen and if the competitor claims he should take wrong place penalty, it would probably be up to the jury (if one exist) to make the judgment

Hitting your ball in anger and claiming you used stroke and distance is not cool. One way to solve this problem would be to define in the rule that you have to place the ball on the teeing ground, not just play it from there.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

But nowhere in Rule 28 does it say that you may play the ball as it lies.  There are 3 options, but all require that the ball be moved from its current location.  It is contrary to both the spirit and the intent of the rule that you passively deem the ball unplayable, then play it as it lies and still try to claim that you were following Rule 28.  You believe what you like, but there is no competent tournament committee in the world which would not rule against you if you were to try this sort of subterfuge.

That's because Rule 28 doesn't tell you how to proceed. It directs you to Rule 20-5, which tells you the ball has to be played from the teeing ground. How does the text in Rule 28 say you have to move the ball?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Ball in Play
A ball is “in play” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground. It remains in play until it is holed, except when it is lost, out of
bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted, whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play.

So, a teed ball is never in play until it has been made a stroke at. This means directly that a teed ball can NEVER be a ball in play. I will not repeat this any longer, it must be clear to everyone by now.

It's about as clear as mud.  Rule 20-4:

Quote:

20-4. When Ball Dropped or Placed Is in Play

If the player's ball in play has been lifted, it is again in play when dropped or placed.

A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when it has been dropped or placed.

When replaying under stroke and distance from the teeing ground, the ball may be teed.  This is just a modified form of placing, is it not?  If your contention was correct, then the bump would not be a penalty offense because the ball is not in play.  However, there is no doubt that the only time a player can accidentally move the ball without penalty is when it is within the teeing ground and before a stroke has been made.   Decision 11-3/1 states that even when still on the tee, the ball is in play:

Quote:

11-3/1  Stroke Misses Ball; Ball Then Accidentally Knocked Off Tee

Q. A player teed his ball within the teeing ground. He made a stroke at the ball but missed it. He addressed the ball again and accidentally knocked it off the tee. What is the ruling?

A. When the player made a stroke at the ball, it was in play and Rule 11-3 no longer applied. When the ball in play moved after it was addressed, the player incurred a penalty stroke and was obliged to replace the ball (Rule 18-2b) .

The ball continues to be in play until lifted, and is back in play when dropped or placed.

[Fourputt]

Read the rule:

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

Note that I bolded the word MUST.  He MUST follow one of the three options.  They do not allow play of the ball as it lies.  Period.  The intent of the rule is to allow the player to get out of a difficult lie, not to let him escape a penalty due to his stupidity.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Read the rule:

Note that I bolded the word MUST.  He MUST follow one of the three options.  They do not allow play of the ball as it lies.  Period.  The intent of the rule is to allow the player to get out of a difficult lie, not to let him escape a penalty due to his stupidity.

Yes, he MUST follow one of the three options. By using the first option, he doesn't have to move the ball. Period. Can you seriously find somewhere in rule 28 or 20-5 that you MUST move the ball when using stroke and distance?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Yes, he MUST follow one of the three options. By using the first option, he doesn't have to move the ball. Period. Can you seriously find somewhere in rule 28 or 20-5 that you MUST move the ball when using stroke and distance?

Why do you insist on arguing this?  It is obvious from the wording of the rule and from the intent of the rule and in the spirit of the game (don't say you don't care about the spirit of the game - many decisions are based on that).  I'm done with it unless someone brings up another valid point.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It's about as clear as mud.  Rule 20-4:

When replaying under stroke and distance from the teeing ground, the ball may be teed.  This is just a modified form of placing, is it not?  If your contention was correct, then the bump would not be a penalty offense because the ball is not in play.  However, there is no doubt that the only time a player can accidentally move the ball without penalty is when it is within the teeing ground and before a stroke has been made.   Decision 11-3/1 states that even when still on the tee, the ball is in play:

The ball continues to be in play until lifted, and is back in play when dropped or placed.

(rationality behind the bolded sentence I cannot understand. Pls. see my post #36)

Sorry, Rick, teeing is not equal to placing. Furthermore, the wording in the Definition of Ball in play should not be too hard to understand: 'ball is in play as soon as'. If we reverse this, it means 'a ball is out of play until'. I do not understand what is so difficult here: A teed ball is not in play until the player has made a stroke at it. I did not anticipate that you would be arguing about this.

Let us take another approach: Can you find in the Rules a justification how a 'ball in play' may continue being in play while lifted and teed/re-teed? Bear in mind that a ball that is lifted is never in play.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Yes, he MUST follow one of the three options. By using the first option, he doesn't have to move the ball. Period. Can you seriously find somewhere in rule 28 or 20-5 that you MUST move the ball when using stroke and distance?

Well.... how do you lose distance if you do not move your ball backwards...?

[sean_miller]

Sorry to interrupt, but aren't you guys specifically talking about a ball which someone has made a stroke at?  Personally, if this scenario happened in real life, I'd ask the guy to tee up where he was originally or add another couple strokes on top of the two he was already lying. Rather than debate it, he probably get even madder, replace his ball, then top it with his 3rd shot onto the ladies tee. He'd hit his fourth shot somewhere near the fairway then vow to never play with me again because I'm bad luck.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

(rationality behind the bolded sentence I cannot understand. Pls. see my post #36)

Sorry, Rick, teeing is not equal to placing. Furthermore, the wording in the Definition of Ball in play should not be too hard to understand: 'ball is in play as soon as'. If we reverse this, it means 'a ball is out of play until'. I do not understand what is so difficult here: A teed ball is not in play until the player has made a stroke at it. I did not anticipate that you would be arguing about this.

Let us take another approach: Can you find in the Rules a justification how a 'ball in play' may continue being in play while lifted and teed/re-teed? Bear in mind that a ball that is lifted is never in play.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Well.... how do you lose distance if you do not move your ball backwards...?

Rules doesn't say you have to lose distance.

This discussion has become moot, let's agree to disagree.