draw vs fade - iron distance

[Gerald]

I can help much, but most of my iron shots are dead straight or have a little fade.

In my view there isn't much wrong with a little fade and in shooting for GIR a fade holds on the green much better than a little draw.

I always thought I was loosing at least a club in distance while playing a fade instead of a draw, but when hitting on a monitor recently I noticed my swingspeed is 5-10% higher when I play a fade instead of a draw (maybe it is just me) ...... so actually the distance is about the same.

I have been trying and working hard to get my about natural fade into an intended draw, and well I can hit both ways now, but in distance I gained almost nothing, while I have to swing very acurate for a draw, but I can really rip it if I play a fade.

Would it be some smart thinking to for a fade and not any longer fight it ?

[saevel25]

For me, if i am striking it well, a fade and a draw, the draw is about 2-3 yards further at most. so your saying your getting 5-10 mph more from a fade.. That does seem right, it should be nearly the same.

[LankyLefty]

The fade draw distance thing is not about club speed. I would say for you just hit a fade because you obviously slow down your swing for a draw,

The reason that a draw should in theory go a bit farther has to do with club face angle at impact and spin. A slightly Open face transmits less energy to the ball in the direction your aiming, produces more backspin and slightly increases loft of the face. A slightly closed face transmits more energy to the ball in the direction your aiming, produces less backspin and a slightly less lofted face.

However If you hit a draw or fade with a completely square face my guess is they go about the same but a Draw would roll more while the fade would carry farther.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by Gerald

In my view there isn't much wrong with a little fade and in shooting for GIR a fade holds on the green much better than a little draw.

Not true. If the conditions are exactly the same ( wind, perfectly flat green, same swing speed, same amount of side spin etc ) the ball will hold just as well with a draw as it will a fade.

[LankyLefty]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Not true. If the conditions are exactly the same ( wind, perfectly flat green, same swing speed, same amount of side spin etc ) the ball will hold just as well with a draw as it will a fade.

Fade and draw by definition cannot have the same spin.

[johnthejoiner]

"Between 1968 and 1984, when Mr. Trevino won his majors, he was arguably the Tour’s best ball-striker, a skill he credits to the fade. “You can talk to a fade, but a hook won’t listen,” he is famous for saying. Fades, which curve from left to right for a right-handed player, are easier to control than draws, which curve in the opposite direction, because the ball doesn’t stay on the clubface as long and thus has less internal spin, he said. In hitting a fade—Mr. Trevino’s version of the shot, at least—the clubface is held open, with limited rotation, for as long as possible. In hitting a draw, the clubface releases, or rotates shut, quicker. That’s what gives draws extra spin and also makes them less reliable, he said. The timing has to be more precise. ""

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Would it be some smart thinking to for a fade and not any longer fight it ?

Gerald, play the fade! No really, play the fade. I know a lot of players that thought they would be better golfers with a draw that fight it too much and now are trying to get back to the fade as their standard shot. IMO, the straight to straight fade is a great shot to have and is easier to hit when the timing is slightly off.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

"...Fades, which curve from left to right for a right-handed player, are easier to control than draws, which curve in the opposite direction, because the ball doesn’t stay on the clubface as long and thus has less internal spin, he said. In hitting a fade—Mr. Trevino’s version of the shot, at least—the clubface is held open, with limited rotation, for as long as possible. In hitting a draw, the clubface releases, or rotates shut, quicker. That’s what gives draws extra spin and also makes them less reliable, he said. The timing has to be more precise. ""

Fades aren't on the face less. They don't have less or more "internal spin." I hit all of my draws with a face that's "held open."

There are several types of shots: pull-fades and push-fades. Push-draws and pull-draws.

Trevino may think that, and good for him and his career, but it doesn't mean the physics is accurate.\

To Gerald, play the fade if you want. Why not?

[MiniBlueDragon]

I don't think it matters if you play a draw, a fade or arrow straight to be honest. As long as your accuracy is good, which you've said it is does it matter what your ball flight is like?

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Fade and draw by definition cannot have the same spin.

I said amount. ie. you can play a draw with 2000rpm side spin, as you can with a fade ( opposite direction ) but same AMOUNT.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

I said amount. ie. you can play a draw with 2000rpm side spin, as you can with a fade ( opposite direction ) but same AMOUNT.

OK for the amount, but the draw spins in the direction the ball is landing at, so the sidespin adds roll to the ball, while at a fade the ball spins against the landing direction of the ball and it actually adds backspin to the backspin of the ball ...... holding the green better than the draw.

[LankyLefty]

Originally Posted by Gerald

OK for the amount, but the draw spins in the direction the ball is landing at, so the sidespin adds roll to the ball, while at a fade the ball spins against the landing direction of the ball and it actually adds backspin to the backspin of the ball ...... holding the green better than the draw.

My point exactly. No shot has sidespin and backspin what they have is spin around an axis somewhere in between. The axis of a fade is tilted more towards backspin while the axis of a draw is tilted more towards topspin.

[saevel25]

Neither is tilted toward topspin, both are tilted towards backspin, just opposite horizontal spin

for a right hander

Drawspin (-z,y,x) = Backspin (-z) + Counter Clockwise Spin (y,x)

Fadespin (-z,-y,x) = Backspin (-z)  + Clockwise Spin (-y,x)

The backspin is caused by the angle of attack and the loft of the club. Since the angle of attack is not positive, and does not overcome the angle of the clubface, there is always backpin. The only way you get top spin is if you have something like a 5 degree driver, and you have an agle of attack that is near that number, were you can get under the center axis and not have the ball travel up the clubface. I only seen one person do this in my life, and his ball goes out and divebombs strangly.

side spin is caused by the angle of the clubface (open/close) relative to the swing path.

Note this is not straight up adding, its just a form of vector notation i made up. Those who have taken calc know what i am talking about. Its tough to annotate vectors on forums threads.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by Gerald

OK for the amount, but the draw spins in the direction the ball is landing at, so the sidespin adds roll to the ball, while at a fade the ball spins against the landing direction of the ball and it actually adds backspin to the backspin of the ball ...... holding the green better than the draw.

No, the ball is still spinning backwards, just like any 'proper' shot.

Here is a great thread on the discussion

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/33327/more-incorrect-stuff-draw-vs-fade

[Zeph]

With the same launch conditions, a draw and fade will behave identical. The reason a draw is associated with more distance and fade with less and softer landing is the launch angle. Our swing path remains pretty much the same on every shot, so we manipulate the clubface angle to hit different shots. Doing only that means you close the clubface to hit a draw and open it to hit a fade. A draw will launch lower, have a shallow landing angle and subsequently roll out more. A fade is hit with more loft (open clubface), land at a steeper angle and not roll as much.

It's pretty much the same concept as a high and low drive. The low drive will carry less, but roll out more. A high drive will carry more, but land softer. It's all physics. If two shots curve the same amount sideways, the spin axis was most likely the same. The amount of axis deviance to the side may be different with a higher and lower launch angle, but I don't know by how much. The amount of clubface adjustment needed to hit a fade and draw is so small that I don't imagine it would be a big issue.

It is however possible to hit a high soft draw and a low running fade, but it require a bit more adjustment.

Moving the ball around in your stance may also affect the launch conditions. Hitting the ball 2 inches before lowpoint and 4 inches makes a difference.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by Zeph

With the same launch conditions, a draw and fade will behave identical. The reason a draw is associated with more distance and fade with less and softer landing is the launch angle. Our swing path remains pretty much the same on every shot, so we manipulate the clubface angle to hit different shots. Doing only that means you close the clubface to hit a draw and open it to hit a fade. A draw will launch lower, have a shallow landing angle and subsequently roll out more. A fade is hit with more loft (open clubface), land at a steeper angle and not roll as much.

It's pretty much the same concept as a high and low drive. The low drive will carry less, but roll out more. A high drive will carry more, but land softer. It's all physics. If two shots curve the same amount sideways, the spin axis was most likely the same. The amount of axis deviance to the side may be different with a higher and lower launch angle, but I don't know by how much. The amount of clubface adjustment needed to hit a fade and draw are so small that I don't imagine it would be a big issue.

It is however possible to hit a high soft draw and a low running fade, but it require a bit more adjustment.

Moving the ball around in your stance may also affect the launch conditions. Hitting the ball 2 inches before lowpoint and 4 inches makes a difference.

Thanks Zeph - you explain it better than I do

[sean_miller]

My draw approaches can go longer than fade approaches, but those are accidental pull draws compared to flares off the toe, rather than the straight shots I was trying to execute.

Planned fades or draws (drifting slightly one way or the other) tend to go about the same distance.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

My draw approaches can go longer than fade approaches, but those are accidental pull draws compared to flares off the toe, rather than the straight shots I was trying to execute.

Planned fades or draws (drifting slightly one way or the other) tend to go about the same distance.

Individual players may hit their draw longer, because they're doing something else in the swing, but again, if the conditions are the same, they will go the same length.

BTW, when are we gonna go play a round? Not this weekend obviously with the weather, maybe in the next month. I want to show you my 350 yard drive...............