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GrahamD

The different types of release.....

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As far as i know there are around 3 different ways to release the club through the ball (actually im sure there is more im just going by what players on the pga tent to have in their action)

1) the square/flat left wrist release, this is the type of release alot of tour pros would have eg steve stricker, luke donald, althought it does not work for me as i hit way to many blocks out to the right with it.

2) the closed clubface/strong grip release, this release is also used by alot of tour players eg. dustin johnson, ryo ishikawa, charlie hoffman, this is usually a draw swing which most players with very active body movements use this type of release.

3) square to slightly open/ hands roll open on backswing, this type of release is what some players use eg. louis oostazeen (cant spell his name) charl schwartzel and geoff ogilvy also ben hogan. This is also the type of release i like to use, i like the feeling of of my hands crossing over as im hitting through the ball, it feels like its much less easier to block it out to the right and keeps my usually active lower body more quiet.

This is just my opinion on the common releases, I would like to hear you guys opinion on which release is best and why and which one you play with and explain its strengths and weaknesses for you.

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This is a good one,

There is also schools of thought that talk about CP and CF releases, Morad, S&T.;  What the video above sees a lot of great players doing is more inline/CP

CP- centripetal- horizontal swing plane (baseline) is at or left of the target.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlCvFU6V-3o
CF- centrifugal- horizontal swing plane (baseline) is right of the target       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEhpy6Mh-i8&feature;=related

CP is illustrated on the left CF on the right

http://advancedballstriking.com/lagpressure/hit_swing.jpg

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From this thread http://thesandtrap.com/t/64723/left-shoulder-downswing-and-through-impact#post_807773

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

J - I'm not a MORAD guy, but aren't you just showing a CP release in the photos that Erik highlighted of Tiger?  I mean, Tiger's pattern right now is a pull fade - swinging to left field - so wouldn't that release PA#4 earlier than a guy who is CF release and swinging to right field trying to hit a Push Draw?  Again, I'm no MORAD expert... Just trying to learn.

So wouldn't a CF guy release PA#4 later than a CP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm no MORAD expert either, let's just be clear on that  Let's hope that someone who is decides to throw his two cents in here for this one.

But to be honest, I actually don't know what kind of shot shape Tiger is trying to hit here in that photo. Looks like it could be a draw that moves like two yards in the air, but I could easily be wrong. I definitely know he likes to fade it off the tee, but he does draw it a lot with irons.

With MORAD though, I always thought the CF release had more PA4 than the CP.

I think we need a MORAD guy to chime in here.

For the CF/CP discussion, the sequence the accumulators unload is the same: 4,1,2 and 3.  CP is arc of approach, CF is angled line delivery.  Look those terms up in the Yellow book Beach.  If one is "slower" than the other it would be CF but PA#4 still releases just doesn't have to come down as much as per CP.  CP everything is going forward as you open up, left shoulder stays low, right elbow goes super pitch as you throw the twirl in.  CF, think Tom Lehman, per Mac elbow would be punch, not opening up as much, more 2nd axis tilt, arms swing off the body, feeling like you're swinging towards first base.  Yeah Tiger is trying to do more of a CPish swing direction.  CP and CF are Mac's way of describing swing direction and they are also patterns.  In reality I can keep the arms on my body and CF it and I can "roll" the face and CP it.  Most good golfers CF it, even guys that fade it.  Jack, Freddy, Grant (when he was playing), CF fades.

For 5SK we are using these terms

INward = a swing direction moving left for a righty.  Negative swing direction

ONline = a swing direction along the baseline. Zero swing direction

OUTward = a swing direction moving right for a righty. Positive swing direction

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And to be clear, discussing things like CP or CF is a waste of time, IMO, because nobody does the full CP pattern or the full CF pattern, and even if you're just talking about releases, everyone is somewhere in between.

Hence IN, OUT, and ON, which is all Mike and I will be using going forward.

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Here is a couple of good videos on hinge action.

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Originally Posted by EverythingGolf

Here is a couple of good videos on hinge action.

There's really no such thing as hinge action. They're feels, and virtually everyone is somewhere between "angled hinging" and "horizontal hinging" on full swings. Additionally, they do not actually affect ball flight, or the small amounts they do are in the OPPOSITE direction of what TGM will tell you.

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3) square to slightly open/ hands roll open on backswing, this type of release is what some players use eg. louis oostazeen (cant spell his name) charl schwartzel and geoff ogilvy also ben hogan. This is also the type of release i like to use, i like the feeling of of my hands crossing over as im hitting through the ball, it feels like its much less easier to block it out to the right and keeps my usually active lower body more quiet. This is just my opinion on the common releases, I would like to hear you guys opinion on which release is best and why and which one you play with and explain its strengths and weaknesses for you.

I'm not all that great at understanding all of the terminology about golf swings. Having said that, I'm curious about your thoughts on this release. You say that Hogan used this release. Then you say that you use it and like it because you like the feeling of your hands crossing over as you're hitting the ball. It's been well documented that Hogan retained his bent right arm and the lag in his wrists until well past the ball. Are you saying that Hogan crossed his hands over as he hit the ball? If not, what does "release" actually mean?

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This question may have an obvious answer to most , but it perplexes me .

The release , which is completed after impact by the time the arms reach 3 o'clock by "swiveling"

(as Lynn Blake describes in the video in post #5) seems to allow the club face to lay flat against

the inclined plane of the swing . This seems to be nearly the same relative position of the club face to the plane

that we strive for at the top of the backswing ( neither open or closed) . That being the case , why is there no

mention of a counter rotation (swiveling) of the club/left arm during the back swing ? Instead there are all the references to

dorsiflexion and pronation of the left wrist causing the opening and closing of the club face . Now , my question is

how much of the closed or open position at position #4 is actually caused by the rotation ( swiveling) of the left arm in the backswing , and how much by the wrists ?

Please excuse the question if it's too obvious , but the geometry of how this occurs escapes me ,

Michael

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Originally Posted by migueldds

This question may have an obvious answer to most , but it perplexes me .

The release , which is completed after impact by the time the arms reach 3 o'clock by "swiveling"

(as Lynn Blake describes in the video in post #5) seems to allow the club face to lay flat against

the inclined plane of the swing . This seems to be nearly the same relative position of the club face to the plane

that we strive for at the top of the backswing ( neither open or closed) . That being the case , why is there no

mention of a counter rotation (swiveling) of the club/left arm during the back swing ? Instead there are all the references to

dorsiflexion and pronation of the left wrist causing the opening and closing of the club face . Now , my question is

how much of the closed or open position at position #4 is actually caused by the rotation ( swiveling) of the left arm in the backswing , and how much by the wrists ?

Please excuse the question if it's too obvious , but the geometry of how this occurs escapes me ,

You'll find that the lead arm rolls away (clockwise for a righty) during the backswing, and counter-clockwise for a righty during the downswing and follow-through.

Note that the top of the backswing is not the same place as the follow-through, and the backswing (particularly at the top of the backswing) often has wrist cock which changes the way we perceive where the clubface is pointing (as the follow-through often lacks much wrist re-cocking).

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Originally Posted by iacas

There's really no such thing as hinge action. They're feels, and virtually everyone is somewhere between "angled hinging" and "horizontal hinging" on full swings. Additionally, they do not actually affect ball flight, or the small amounts they do are in the OPPOSITE direction of what TGM will tell you.

Good example of why hinge actions don't matter.  Per hinge actions, the guy that is horizontal hinging (left) would be hitting a draw, the guy that is angled hinging (right) would be hitting a fade or straight shot.  The opposite is happening in the pic.  #1 reason they don't matter is because they happen AFTER impact.

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Originally Posted by mvmac

Good example of why hinge actions don't matter.  Per hinge actions, the guy that is horizontal hinging (left) would be hitting a draw, the guy that is angled hinging (right) would be hitting a fade or straight shot.  The opposite is happening in the pic.  #1 reason they don't matter is because they happen AFTER impact.

The 2 different releases in the images do not have different ball flights?

Why would someone use one over the other?

Does IN OUT and ON affect the type of shot you are trying to produce?

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The 2 different releases in the images do not have different ball flights? Why would someone use one over the other? Does IN OUT and ON affect the type of shot you are trying to produce?

Question #1: depends on the path and face at impact. Question #2: to control curve. Question #3: depends on the face at impact. Like for me, my path is positive (Out). My face is closed to my path. So I tend to hit a fairly straight ball flight, or push draw. Sometimes overdraw or hook. Now when I try and get a square face, my flight turns into a push. Or slight fade. Go back and look at the ball flight laws and D-plane. You'll understand face and path correlation.

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Originally Posted by EverythingGolf

The 2 different releases in the images do not have different ball flights?

Why would someone use one over the other?

Does IN OUT and ON affect the type of shot you are trying to produce?

Like I said, they do not actually affect ball flight, the guy on the left is hitting a fade, the guy on the right is hitting a draw.  They could very well be doing the opposite, if you were just looking at the club face rotation after impact .  The body and the handle location might give you a few hints.  In other words the rotation of the face has little to do with imparting curve on the ball.  If anything more roll will make the ball fade.  What the face is doing at that point of the swing doesn't matter, it's just style points, ball is gone.

Yes IN, OUT and ON effect the shot, they are how we are describing swing direction.  Tiger is IN, Rory McIlroy is OUT and Hunter Mahan is ON (just guessing at that one).

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Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Go back and look at the ball flight laws and D-plane. You'll understand face and path correlation.

I understand that stuff it just getting the club to do it. I didn't realize that the different releases are what get you there.

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Originally Posted by EverythingGolf

I understand that stuff it just getting the club to do it. I didn't realize that the different releases are what get you there.

Are my posts invisible?  Release styles don't effect curvature.  Or are you calling IN, OUT and ON "releases", because they are not.

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Originally Posted by mvmac

Are my posts invisible?  Release styles don't effect curvature.  Or are you calling IN, OUT and ON "releases", because they are not.

If they are not releases and they do not affect curvature then whats the difference and why use one over the other.

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Originally Posted by mvmac

Are my posts invisible?  Release styles don't effect curvature.  Or are you calling IN, OUT and ON "releases", because they are not.

What Mike doesn't know is that I enabled the "Shut_up_San_Diego" feature in the forum's admin panel. It's designed to protect us northerners from having to hear about good weather in the middle of nasty snowstorms and such.

Anyway, the rate of closure and the type of "release" is dependent on a number of things. They may indicate a ball flight, but more often than not, they actually indicate the opposite ball flight of what you see. In other words, a clubface that's | shortly after impact is often a fade and a clubface that's / at the same point is often a draw.

Originally Posted by EverythingGolf

If they are not releases and they do not affect curvature then whats the difference and why use one over the other.

Because they're indicative of what's come before and at impact, and what comes before and at impact DOES affect the shot.

Nobody "uses" a release type. The release is a result.

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So in this image the one on the right is IN and is the one on the left ON or OUT?

Can both of them produce the same type of shot, fade draw etc?

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