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S&T straight right leg at backwing or not .....


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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Exactly. Not S&T; straight necessarily, (McIlroy, Day, Yang, Stricker, etc as examples) but definitely straighter.

EDIT: It might be beneficial to know what club people are using in the photos as well. My wedge swing would have more tilt and a straighter back leg than my 3-iron or driver swing for example. Right or wrong, it is what it is.



yea, if a move works for you(not you personally but golfers in general) then fine. I prefer what McIIroy does but SnT does stress straightening the right leg and probably more so than most other teachers

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Originally Posted by motteler621

yea, if a move works for you(not you personally but golfers in general) then fine. I prefer what McIIroy does but SnT does stress straightening the right leg and probably more so than most other teachers

You (and others) seem to over-estimate just how much hip turn and/or straightening S&T; instructors ask of people. Charlie Wi turns his hips far less than Bubba Watson, for example. Or Phil Mickelson. Or a bunch of other guys.

The right knee straightens enough to let the hips turn enough to achieve a full shoulder turn. That's all. I don't care if it's 10 degrees or 50 - the amount the right knee loses flex will depend on the player's flexibility and the length of the backswing (amount of shoulder turn) the player/coach are after.

S&T; is not "one size fits all" and it's not a swing comprised of really narrow ranges of functionality. It simply says "this piece is responsible for this, this part over here controls this other things, etc." It's a system of measurements built around essentially a one-plane, centered pivot swing with a lot of room for variation.

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Originally Posted by iacas

S&T; is not "one size fits all" and it's not a swing comprised of really narrow ranges of functionality. It simply says "this piece is responsible for this, this part over here controls this other things, etc." It's a system of measurements built around essentially a one-plane, centered pivot swing with a lot of room for variation.


There are a lot of tweaks to my swing that I've thought would improve it but have discarded as they're not the full S&T; swing. Would love to know which pieces can be swapped out as needed and which would make the swing worse. Some examples that I felt would benefit me:

  1. S&T; - Both feet flares slightly outward.
    My thoughts - Front foot flared 35-45 degrees outward, rear foot perpendicular to the target line.
    I found that this restricts the amount of turn my hips make to 45 degrees and that limits the shoulder turn to 90 degrees for me. The 'coil' feels tighter for me and as a result my downswing is more powerful and driven by my core more.
  2. S&T; - Heel line parallel to the target line.
    My thoughts - Front foot flared 35-45 degrees outward with toes parallel to the target line.
    I found that the resulting stance is a tiny bit closed with the back foot about an inch back from the front. This means whenever I over-rotate or don't slide enough the club impact is still good. If I do slide enough it's still a good impact.
  3. S&T; - Neutral grip. 2 knuckles on the left hand showing.
    My thoughts - I tend to push the ball more than ideal with a neutral grip. By increasing to a 3 knuckle grip the club comes through slightly more closed to the swing path which promotes a draw.
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Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

S&T; - Both feet flares slightly outward.

My thoughts - Front foot flared 35-45 degrees outward, rear foot perpendicular to the target line.

I found that this restricts the amount of turn my hips make to 45 degrees and that limits the shoulder turn to 90 degrees for me. The 'coil' feels tighter for me and as a result my downswing is more powerful and driven by my core more.

Left foot controls left knee. Right foot right knee/hips. Flaring out helps to prevent the knees from "kicking in" during the backswing (left knee) or downswing (right knee).

Your modification is fine. I flare my front foot out more than my back foot on quite a few shots.

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

S&T; - Heel line parallel to the target line.

My thoughts - Front foot flared 35-45 degrees outward with toes parallel to the target line.

I found that the resulting stance is a tiny bit closed with the back foot about an inch back from the front. This means whenever I over-rotate or don't slide enough the club impact is still good. If I do slide enough it's still a good impact.

True measures of the stance should be along the ankles. Heels are a good stand-in because they're nearly circular so you can turn your ankles slightly and still get the same "heel measurement."

If you swing too far to the right the last thing we'd care about is your stance being a little open. There are days I'll play with a stance that's 10 degrees open because I'm a bit too far from the inside that day.

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

S&T; - Neutral grip. 2 knuckles on the left hand showing.

My thoughts - I tend to push the ball more than ideal with a neutral grip. By increasing to a 3 knuckle grip the club comes through slightly more closed to the swing path which promotes a draw.

Also probably fine. The book recommends neutral but we change grips slightly all the time to tweak starting direction (and curve).

Believe me, no S&T; instructor would change any one of those things if they work for you. People seem to have it in their heads that they need to do the whole S&T; swing. People fail to realize they already do a lot of it.

Let's see if we can stick to the topic, though. And on that, and to tie in to your post... if your hips turn really flat, if you fail to get a good shoulder pitch/angle, or if you can't get 90 degrees of shoulder turn, I'd look at the leg/knee-work. Otherwise, something else is likely the top priority.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Believe me, no S&T; instructor would change any one of those things if they work for you. People seem to have it in their heads that they need to do the whole S&T; swing. People fail to realize they already do a lot of it.

Let's see if we can stick to the topic, though. And on that, and to tie in to your post... if your hips turn really flat, if you fail to get a good shoulder pitch/angle, or if you can't get 90 degrees of shoulder turn, I'd look at the leg/knee-work. Otherwise, something else is likely the top priority.


Didn't realise it was a hijack; my bad. I just saw your comment and it seemed a better idea to follow from that than start a new one.

I think the feeling of needing to stick to all of S&T; comes primarily from it's description that it's "a fully illustrated complete course" - Something whole, complete and finished and therefore has a requirement to stay whole and not be bastardized by us hackers because we think we know better. I'm a firm proponent in using my "oracles" - Those who have the knowledge and information that I don't so for me it required confirmation from one of my oracles that it's fine to make those changes and not to presume I know better.

I'm done hijacking now.

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Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Where's Harmnoius's swing video?

For a guy who says he hates hearing about and talking about S&T; he sure does have to poop on the party often enough. Hey bud, just ignore it if you don't want to talk about it.

You must have been reading someone else's comment.  My point was that, when the hips rotated approximately 45 degrees, the photo angle is more "face-on" and will show the leg to be straighter than it really is.  How you get that I am pooping on your party (?), I don't know.

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Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I think the feeling of needing to stick to all of S&T; comes primarily from it's description that it's "a fully illustrated complete course" - Something whole, complete and finished and therefore has a requirement to stay whole and not be bastardized by us hackers because we think we know better.


To put a ribbon on this: it's not. You can adopt one piece. Dustin Johnson only worked with Mike and Andy for a few weeks a few years ago. The piece he worked on: lowering the exit. Why? So he wouldn't keep sending the path 40 miles right. He already has hook pieces in his swing - bowed wrist at the top, shut clubface - he has to swing left HARD so that his normal draw doesn't quack off the planet.

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You must have been reading someone else's comment.  My point was that, when the hips rotated approximately 45 degrees, the photo angle is more "face-on" and will show the leg to be straighter than it really is.  How you get that I am pooping on your party (?), I don't know.



Stand up, rotate your hips, see if the knee starts rotating too. It does not. The hips are jointed with a ball, which makes it possible to rotate them without rotating the legs. Only way the leg rotates is by rotating the foot, which nobody does. So no, the angle of the leg does not change.

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Originally Posted by Zeph

Stand up, rotate your hips, see if the knee starts rotating too. It does not. The hips are jointed with a ball, which makes it possible to rotate them without rotating the legs. Only way the leg rotates is by rotating the foot, which nobody does. So no, the angle of the leg does not change.


The plane of it can twist a little, but you're right: it doesn't twist anywhere near as much as Harmonious would seems to believe.

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Originally Posted by Zeph

Stand up, rotate your hips, see if the knee starts rotating too. It does not. The hips are jointed with a ball, which makes it possible to rotate them without rotating the legs. Only way the leg rotates is by rotating the foot, which nobody does. So no, the angle of the leg does not change.


Maybe I'm a physical anomaly because I just tried it.  I took my setup position, and my upper leg points straight ahead.  If I look down the front of my back leg, it is pointing about 5-6 inches in front of my back foot. When I go up to the top of my backswing and look down, my back leg is pointing almost directly at the inside of my back foot. Maybe it's just me.....

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are you knockneed (high degree of knee valgus)? [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/153168/width/1000/height/800][IMG]http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/153168/width/1000/height/500[/IMG][/URL] BTW, this is the thread that wouldn't die.
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