How bad can a plus capper play? AKA I played with a very delusional man today

[RayG]

And if he's "moving back" and or "working on" something just before a tourny, he's nuts. Why not stick with what got you there, and play from where you might gain confidence instead of beating yourself to a pulp. I've played with a few "Pro's from Dover" over the years. Most aren't worth the polyester pants they're wearing in July... in Florida.. at an 11am tee time. Worst example was after one saying "mind if we play from the Blacks, kid?"... I proceeded to take him by 20yds for two holes with my $20 driver out of a clearance bin. He suddenly decided that the course was too crowded and he didn't want to wait around- left me out there as a single. Upside was that I caught up with Tommy Bolt and 2 friends and they asked if I would like to join them. I knew who it was as I came up behind them. "Thank You Mr. Bolt, that would be great!" "Sure thing, son- we're playing $100 a hole..." "Have a nice day, Mr Bolt", I said. He laughed and said "C'mon, boy- don't worry about it." Among the most fun I ever had.

[Leftygolfer]

low 80s.  I play with one point something and he shoots in the 80s 2 or 3 times a year.  He never looks like a hack, just looses his way a little bit and makes a couple of stupid errors.  His weakness is probably pitching the ball high and soft.  But when you hit 14 greens does it really matter?  When he's on he really doesn't get in a position where he needs that shot.

[Leftygolfer]

I agree.  Anyone who says how great they are probably isn't.  It is obvious to me when i play with a truely great player.  Even on there bad day it is very apparent they are special.  I've played with the assistant one day and he was just coming off a knee scope, he played bad, but you could tell he was something when he was on and actually trying to make a score.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by trickymicky69

I played with a scratch golfer yesterday (I know this as he is my club pro)

I have seen him play before and the guy is brilliant.

I swear to god he must have hit about 20 duck hooks (irons and woods)

He didnt make any excuses either apart from (I seem to be clearing my hips too quickly etc etc)

It can happen to the best of us

Club pro's think they are scratch, but they only think they are ..... because when you leave the amateur status, you loose the handicap .... goes to no handicap ....... I bet a local low capper cab beat the club pro about any day !!!

[Yukari]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Club pro's think they are scratch, but they only think they are ..... because when you leave the amateur status, you loose the handicap .... goes to no handicap ....... I bet a local low capper cab beat the club pro about any day !!!

It all depends on the club pro.  I played with one of my club pro who happens to play in tournaments throughout the year, and I was keeping up with him (or he was falling back to my level).  I shot 78 (70.9/133 course) and he shot 73.  I played with another club pro who used to be on a mini-tour and he taught me a few lessons.  He shot 67 to my 82.

Every club pro is different just like every player is different.

[Yukari]

To the OP: I can see how one can have a bad day even if they are +1.7.

Just last week, I was having a terrible time.  I couldn't find a fairway if it was a mile wide.  My swing just felt out of sync.  But this weekend, everything came back to normal.  Go figure.

[Gerald]

Quote:

I don't know about this. My home course is about 6500 yards from the tips and plays to a 135 slope. The longest par 4 is about 420 yards. The pros would be hitting half wedges into the par 4's and none of the par 5's would require more than a mid-iron second shot. They'd eat this course alive. I'd be surprised if they didn't break 60 regularly. That would put them at a +11 handicap. It's not an easy track due to wetlands and some tight landing areas but they would certainly shoot 35 strokes better than my average mid-90's scores.

It is just simply no guarantee that if you are shooting your second shot at par 4's from 60 yds in, that these guys are doing these last 60 yds in 2 strokes by rule, they make a few, and maybe more than a few, but if they make 4 or 5 of these, even they have a hell of a great day, add maybe 2 birdies at the par 5's and 1 at the par 3's, but they will also make a few bogeys, at least most will do......

Only the best of the best manage 60% scrambling, but the number 100 is maybe at "only" 50%, so the average tour pro, will average make max. 5 birdies at your clubs par 4 holes and only if they really hit their drives as well as you believe ..... but they will miss a few fairways etc....... so .....

I have seen so many Tour players, thinking they would break down a course like 7000 from the tips, but they just don't do this....... if they manage 5 under ...... they are really playing well, even at you course.

[Leftygolfer]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Club pro's think they are scratch, but they only think they are ..... because when you leave the amateur status, you loose the handicap .... goes to no handicap ....... I bet a local low capper cab beat the club pro about any day !!!

I just don't agree with this.  Maybe a few old ones who don't play anymore.   But my home course, the two pro's low round there is 62 and 64.  The one played in the 2010 and 08 PGA.  If they still actively play (some don't maybe) they can play with any amateur in the city.

[Gerald]

Quote:

It all depends on the club pro.  I played with one of my club pro who happens to play in tournaments throughout the year, and I was keeping up with him (or he was falling back to my level).  I shot 78 (70.9/133 course) and he shot 73.  I played with another club pro who used to be on a mini-tour and he taught me a few lessons.  He shot 67 to my 82.

Every club pro is different just like every player is different.

Sure, but most club pro's spend their days leaning on a 7 iron, watching hackers thinning and slicing many balls ....... visit a tournament in which those club pro's compete ...... the winner is playing a round of par or maybe 1 or 2 strokes below, a few will be play 1 to 3 strokes above par, while the rest is playing 76 - 86 or even worse...... most of them are no scratch player at all and there are many club pro's that have never played below a 10 index.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Quote:

It is just simply no guarantee that if you are shooting your second shot at par 4's from 60 yds in, that these guys are doing these last 60 yds in 2 strokes by rule, they make a few, and maybe more than a few, but if they make 4 or 5 of these, even they have a hell of a great day, add maybe 2 birdies at the par 5's and 1 at the par 3's, but they will also make a few bogeys, at least most will do......

Only the best of the best manage 60% scrambling, but the number 100 is maybe at "only" 50%, so the average tour pro, will average make max. 5 birdies at your clubs par 4 holes and only if they really hit their drives as well as you believe ..... but they will miss a few fairways etc....... so .....

I have seen so many Tour players, thinking they would break down a course like 7000 from the tips, but they just don't do this....... if they manage 5 under ...... they are really playing well, even at you course.

I think you make some good points, Gerald.  Our course is at 7000 yards, and our resident Hooters Tour player routinely shoots in the high 60's not the 50's.  Even with shorter irons to the greens, he is faced with 15-20' putts for birdie, and they just don't make them all that often.  And another thing to consider is that the rating may be substantially higher than par.  For example, ours is 73.8 from the blues.  So even shooting par 72 yields a differential of +1.8.  A tour quality player, say a +5, could be expected to shoot 69 half the time, and higher than that the other half.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Sure, but most club pro's spend their days leaning on a 7 iron, watching hackers thinning and slicing many balls ....... visit a tournament in which those club pro's compete ...... the winner is playing a round of par or maybe 1 or 2 strokes below, a few will be play 1 to 3 strokes above par, while the rest is playing 76 - 86 or even worse...... most of them are no scratch player at all and there are many club pro's that have never played below a 10 index.

First, the course ratings are often not 72. They're higher, so even a 73 or 74 might be "scratch." Second, some club pros play more than others. Some play less than virtually every other person at the club.

Second, virtually all club pros are PGA members, and they most certainly got to below a "10 index" at one point or another to pass the PAT.

I'm caddying for Dave again this year in the National Club Pro, and I guarantee those "club pros" are scratch golfers.

[Gerald]

Quote:

Here's the article I mentioned in my post above. OK, yes, I got some of it wrong but read it and weep people! These guys ARE good!!

http://thesandtrap.com/b/the_numbers_game/calculating_the_handicap_indeces_of_the_pros

Guest Author David, is a friend of Jack D. with lots of time I guess ...... a lot of "nonsense" numbers, still very interesting, but Tiger (even) in his best days would loose from any scratch player, playing par at about any day if he would need to give him 7.6 strokes......

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I think you make some good points, Gerald.  Our course is at 7000 yards, and our resident Hooters Tour player routinely shoots in the high 60's not the 50's.  Even with shorter irons to the greens, he is faced with 15-20' putts for birdie, and they just don't make them all that often.  And another thing to consider is that the rating may be substantially higher than par.  For example, ours is 73.8 from the blues.  So even shooting par 72 yields a differential of +1.8.  A tour quality player, say a +5, could be expected to shoot 69 half the time, and higher than that the other half.

Yep the guys calling out loud that any Tour player will blast their homecourses, are the 10-20 cappers, having less of an idea how difficult it is even at the level of play tour players have to string birdies hole after hole, even if they have to chip or pitch inside 100 or even within 50 yds.

Beside that at most courses there might be some shorter par 4's and par 5's, but they all might have their difficulties, like hazard, dog legs, etc..... so it is no guarantee that a 330 yds drive will put them in a great position, etc...... and only a few of the greatest hit these 330+ teeshots, most are happy to even reach 300 yds.

Except for the few real leading tour players at their best weeks, most tour player will at very best be a +5 ...... and to be honest if you sum up a full season, the average tour player, will be very happy to be a +3.5 or alike.

[Gerald]

Quote:

First, the course ratings are often not 72. They're higher, so even a 73 or 74 might be "scratch." Second, some club pros play more than others. Some play less than virtually every other person at the club.

Second, virtually all club pros are PGA members, and they most certainly got to below a "10 index" at one point or another to pass the PAT.

I'm caddying for Dave again this year in the National Club Pro, and I guarantee those "club pros" are scratch golfers.

Yep agree, our course is a 73.5 ..... so a round of 74 is about scratch.

I think passing for a exam they need to play below 5 (in Europe) but a lot of the younger guys have played in the European sub tour before becoming pro, but still they have a hard time, beating par or even beating a few strokes above par ...... in a friendly game they will show some good stuff or drop another ball to proof that they can make the shot, but when it really counts most teaching pro's are by no means a scratch player. Been given a Zero handicap isn't the same as an amateur reaching a Zero handicap.

USA National Club Pro cannot be compared to an European country National Club Pro (unless probably the UK). The best 15 orso last year played around par ..... of course these are scratch players and even the 100th place was only slightly above par, but I can imagine there were many not to reach the cut (if there was any), but these might well be the best playing instructors from 48 states ...... I am sure we can find thse also through Europe ....... but I think you will agree that most club-professionals are in no way a scratch player.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Guest Author David, is a friend of Jack D. with lots of time I guess ...... a lot of "nonsense" numbers, still very interesting, but Tiger (even) in his best days would loose from any scratch player, playing par at about any day if he would need to give him 7.6 strokes......

What? Tiger would not lose to a scratch player getting 7 (or 8) strokes on a PGA Tour level course. The course ratings are about 78. Tiger would shoot 69 in a sleep and the scratch golfer would shoot 85+.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by iacas

What? Tiger would not lose to a scratch player getting 7 (or 8) strokes on a PGA Tour level course. The course ratings are about 78. Tiger would shoot 69 in a sleep and the scratch golfer would shoot 85+.

Agree that Tiger (the old one, not today's Tiger) would be tough to beat.  But, if the handicap system works the way it is supposed to, and assuming Tiger played to a +8 or so, why wouldn't it be a fair match?  Wouldn't the scratch player be able to shoot 78 on a course rated 78?  I understand that the slope would be very high which might add another stroke or two, but if someone shoots close to the course rating (any course rating) why wouldn't he do so on a tough layout, assuming it was rated correctly?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Agree that Tiger (the old one, not today's Tiger) would be tough to beat.  But, if the handicap system works the way it is supposed to, and assuming Tiger played to a +8 or so, why wouldn't it be a fair match?  Wouldn't the scratch player be able to shoot 78 on a course rated 78?  I understand that the slope would be very high which might add another stroke or two, but if someone shoots close to the course rating (any course rating) why wouldn't he do so on a tough layout, assuming it was rated correctly?

Mathematical reason: because of the bonus for excellence.

Other (equally real) reason: because the scratch golfer will not play to scratch on a PGA Tour course.

[arogolf]

Comparing any touring pro to amatuers, save for an elite amatuer playing his very best, is silly. Course rating is one thing, tournament conditions with 1000s of people watching is another. And the opposite, a tour pro coming to your club for a friendly 18 under member conditions? Prepare for the course record to be most likely broken, plus the "holy crap, I'm playing against tiger" factor ie the extra pressure that you have to play your best ever to even hang around. Smart money bets on pro 99 out of 100 times.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by iacas

What? Tiger would not lose to a scratch player getting 7 (or 8) strokes on a PGA Tour level course. The course ratings are about 78. Tiger would shoot 69 in a sleep and the scratch golfer would shoot 85+.

No at the local course the scratch player is member of ...... it is hard to play with a 7 (or 8) strokes difference, even for Tiger ...... I guess there is a good chance the local scratch player will win. At a courserating of about 73, there is no guarantee Tiger will shoot a 65 or below, sure he can, but if needed so many thing can and will go wrong...... also the article that is referring here to is based on what Tigers handicap might be on a local course, so I see no reason when comparing this to step up to a PGA tournament course in this discussion.......

You know even better than me ...... that tour players can play the stars out of the sky one week, and not even make the cut the next week.