Do You Support the PGA's "Tee It Forward" Effort?

[Dave2512]

Most courses here play around 6300 from the men's tees and the tees in front of that are only about 200 yards shorter. Unless people tee up from the very front tees there isn't much benefit to teeing forward. I even don't remember the last time I saw someone tee from the tips which only play about 400 yards longer on average around here.

We have short courses too. Just saying golfers should make tee choices based on their overall ability, reflected by their handicap, rather than how far they hit their good shots. If for no other reason the good shots are the least frequent. If someone can't break 90 from 6200 yards it's probably still too far for them even if they hit a long drive here and there. Because their misses aka the majority of their shots dictate how they navigate the course and score.

[Jeremie Boop]

We have short courses too. Just saying golfers should make tee choices based on their overall ability, reflected by their handicap, rather than how far they hit their good shots. If for no other reason the good shots are the least frequent. If someone can't break 90 from 6200 yards it's probably still to far for them even if they hit a long drive here and there. Because their misses aka the majority of their shots dictate how they navigate the course and score.

I can pretty much tell you, if I played shorter tees it wouldn't affect my score. My bad holes are due to lost balls normally and being closer to the hole won't stop that . The forward tees here don't put out in places where you won't still hit into the woods if you hit a push/slice  or pull/hook.

[Lihu]

Consistency is more a factor than distance. Any high handicap golfer that believes they are always 200ish and towards the intended target isn't being honest with themselves. I just got back from my lesson, my instructor has FlightScope. My shot pattern was somewhat tight for a shit golfer but my distance, ball speed and shot height varied quite a bit with good and bad contact. I hit something like 36 7 irons and no shot was on top of another one. As we worked through longer clubs the numbers between good and bad shots showed greater variation. I don't think golfers realize how much variation they have shot to shot.

Ahem. . .hem. . .hem. . .I'm struggling the most with inconsistent distances with anything above the 8i. I've been publicly vocal about it too.

If you hit with your driver a consistent 200 yards and straight (possibly 220-240 total distance), I think any tee would work for you. The only people, I know, who are capable of doing this are the low single digit handicaps, and a lot of them drive quite a bit further.

[Dave2512]

I can pretty much tell you, if I played shorter tees it wouldn't affect my score. My bad holes are due to lost balls normally and being closer to the hole won't stop that . The forward tees here don't put out in places where you won't still hit into the woods if you hit a push/slice  or pull/hook.

I'll take your word for it. All I know is when I play my former home course at 6412 yards, that's the tips, I stand a good chance to break 80 every time I play it. I play a lot of 9 hole golf so it's more I expect to break 40 and often do. If I played the 6097 white tees there I suspect I'd rarely not break 80 just because the abundance of short par 4's would take driver out of play and I'd still hit more wedges into greens than not. Moving back to 6950 at my home course, one up from the back tees, my scores increase. It's not a massive increase just a couple strokes but it's real. And that's if I play close to the same quality of golf. I know my par % goes down as the courses get longer and my bogey % goes up. My double or worse stat doesn't change much course to course, those holes are the anomalies. My score is usually defined by how well I take advantage of scoring opportunities and how close my first shot gets me to the hole is typically what decides it.

[Jeremie Boop]

I'll take your word for it. All I know is when I play my former home course at 6412 yards, that's the tips, I stand a good chance to break 80 every time I play it. I play a lot of 9 hole golf so it's more I expect to break 40 and often do. If I played the 6097 white tees there I suspect I'd rarely not break 80 just because the abundance of short par 4's would take driver out of play and I'd still hit more wedges into greens than not. Moving back to 6950 at my home course, one up from the back tees, my scores increase. It's not a massive increase just a couple strokes but it's real. And that's if I play close to the same quality of golf. I know my par % goes down as the courses get longer and my bogey % goes up. My double or worse stat doesn't change much course to course, those holes are the anomalies. My score is usually defined by how well I take advantage of scoring opportunities and how close my first shot gets me to the hole is typically what decides it.

That's what I'm saying though, 6412 is pretty much the tips here too. Short courses, high scores here don't come from holes that can't be reached, but more from OB markers not far from the fairways and long grass areas that make it hard to find the ball. I understand where you are coming from for sure though. I just think it depends on the course and what the player's typical miss is.

[NJpatbee]

One of my regular courses plays 5611 from the Whites with a 70.1/129 difficulty and slope, and the Blues (tips) are 6002 yards with a 71.8/131.  I play from the Whites and have my hands full with the course elevations and tight fairways.  I am always amused by first time players looking at the distance and playing from the Blues (I stay on the whites).  Many will look out from the first tee and will comment that the course looks great but it is too short for their game.  By the time we are on the fifth tee there is usually a look of bewilderment on their faces ater they have mangled the 2nd, which is a par 5 508 yards uphill, and the 4th, which is a par 5 534 yards with a steep drop down to the green, where the slightest hook or slice and you have a lost ball.

I typically look for 5800 - 6200 if I do not know the course, but most reputable courses will adjust where the white tees are based on overall course difficulty.

[Dave2512]

I wish we had short courses with ratings near par here. If I played from 5700 yards and shot a 6 over 78 at my former home course the differential would be around 13.

[vangator]

Playing the tips changes a cours not only by raw distance but also how you play your shots with respect to hazards etc. From the white tees I generally just blow over sand traps and cut dog legs. From the tips te traps are right in my landing area. I have to respect the dog legs and play more down the middle which makes the course even longer than just the added yardage. Lot different play a 5 iron into a par 4 instead of a wedge. I agree with playing the ball off the appropriate tee to have fun. I generally play the tessthe rest of the group is playing whether it be the tips or the white tees or anywhere in between. I'm not opposed to the red tees either. :)

[Aflighter]

I agree with you to a point about being able to play any tees if you hit it 200 yards straight.im a short hitter .I only hit my driver 210-225 but its as accurate as anyone Ive seen.even from tips at most golf courses you will only find maybe 2-4 par 4s where its almost impossible to reach in two.my short game is not great either but I manage usually 84-88 the few times ive had to play over 6800 yards.i truly believe playing tips over time will make you better because you have to improve or you cant compete.like ive heard before,if you can chip and putt then you can play from any tees.

[vangator]

How about "The Judge". Here it's listed at 7813. I think I've seen thescorecard over 8000. May be one of the othe RTJ courses. Capitol HillPrintSlope & Course Ratings: Judge: Black 78.5/147; Purple 75.1/142; Orange 71.7/131; White 68.7/128; Teal 64.7/115; Ladies White 74.4/137; Ladies Teal 68.4/123 Legislator: Black 76.9/149; Purple 74.0/143; Orange 71.4/139; White 69.4/131; Teal 66.1/117; Ladies White 74.3/133; Ladies Teal 70.4/121 Senator: Black 77.7/133; Purple 74.3/126; Orange 71.1/126; White 68.1/121; Teal 64.7/110; Ladies White 73.6/123; Ladies Teal 69.7/116 JUDGE HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOTAL PAR 4 4 3 5 4 3 5 4 4 36 5 4 3 4 4 5 3 4 4 36 72 Black 415 459 187 617 423 229 675 466 430 3,901 711 478 231 427 469 552 256 430 358 3,912 7,813 Purple 400 416 166 579 386 190 625 452 387 3,601 563 400 215 405 424 529 223 384 338 3,481 7,082 Orange 379 379 155 548 342 148 589 425 362 3,327 543 370 179 358 385 500 170 364 321 3,190 6,517 White 347 350 129 486 326 133 575 396 330 3,072 503 340 110 313 371 457 153 327 264 2,838 5,910 Teal 296 305 112 402 273 120 351 344 271 2,474 421 268 94 261 352 413 126 288 254 2,477 4,951

[MS256]

How about "The Judge". Here it's listed at 7813. I think I've seen thescorecard over 8000. May be one of the othe RTJ courses.

Capitol HillPrintSlope & Course Ratings:

Judge: Black 78.5/147; Purple 75.1/142; Orange 71.7/131; White 68.7/128; Teal 64.7/115; Ladies White 74.4/137; Ladies Teal 68.4/123

Legislator: Black 76.9/149; Purple 74.0/143; Orange 71.4/139; White 69.4/131; Teal 66.1/117; Ladies White 74.3/133; Ladies Teal 70.4/121

Senator: Black 77.7/133; Purple 74.3/126; Orange 71.1/126; White 68.1/121; Teal 64.7/110; Ladies White 73.6/123; Ladies Teal 69.7/116

JUDGE

HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOTAL

PAR 4 4 3 5 4 3 5 4 4 36 5 4 3 4 4 5 3 4 4 36 72

Black 415 459 187 617 423 229 675 466 430 3,901 711 478 231 427 469 552 256 430 358 3,912 7,813

Purple 400 416 166 579 386 190 625 452 387 3,601 563 400 215 405 424 529 223 384 338 3,481 7,082

Orange 379 379 155 548 342 148 589 425 362 3,327 543 370 179 358 385 500 170 364 321 3,190 6,517

White 347 350 129 486 326 133 575 396 330 3,072 503 340 110 313 371 457 153 327 264 2,838 5,910

Teal 296 305 112 402 273 120 351 344 271 2,474 421 268 94 261 352 413 126 288 254 2,477 4,951

Or if you really like getting beat up at 8,191 yards:

http://www.rtjgolf.com/rossbridge/scorecard/

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I'll take your word for it. All I know is when I play my former home course at 6412 yards, that's the tips, I stand a good chance to break 80 every time I play it. I play a lot of 9 hole golf so it's more I expect to break 40 and often do. If I played the 6097 white tees there I suspect I'd rarely not break 80 just because the abundance of short par 4's would take driver out of play and I'd still hit more wedges into greens than not. Moving back to 6950 at my home course, one up from the back tees, my scores increase. It's not a massive increase just a couple strokes but it's real. And that's if I play close to the same quality of golf. I know my par % goes down as the courses get longer and my bogey % goes up. My double or worse stat doesn't change much course to course, those holes are the anomalies. My score is usually defined by how well I take advantage of scoring opportunities and how close my first shot gets me to the hole is typically what decides it.

That's what I'm saying though, 6412 is pretty much the tips here too. Short courses, high scores here don't come from holes that can't be reached, but more from OB markers not far from the fairways and long grass areas that make it hard to find the ball. I understand where you are coming from for sure though. I just think it depends on the course and what the player's typical miss is.

The whole point of play it forward is that you play driver or 3W less often off the tee.  Those are the clubs you are most likely to hit poorly enough to result in lost balls, and if you play forward, you should be hitting more tee shots with hybrids or long irons.  If you are still stuck on hitting driver every hole, then no, playing it forward won't make a particle of difference in your game until you realize that driver isn't a required part of golf.  My scoring became much more manageable when I came to the realization that if driver wasn't necessary, then I would probably be ahead of the game by leaving it in the bag on that tee.

Even now, as short as I am these days, I still only play driver on a maximum of 4 out of 7 driving holes on the front 9 of my home course, and sometimes as few as 2 holes.  Doing so keeps me out of trouble at most of the time - I certainly have a much higher percentage of keepers - so I give myself more scoring chances.  That is from the white tees at 3167 yards.  The back 9 is 200 yards longer (3332 yards - 6499 total for the middle tees) and has 7 driving holes, with only the two par 3 holes played without driver, so it's not like I'm just playing timidly.  I try to play smart golf, and that means in part leaving the driver in the bag when not needed.  Most average amateurs would score better if they check their egos at the clubhouse.

Here is a scorecard from the Old Works,  a Nicklaus design:

I've played the Copper and the Limestone tees, and the Limestone are the ones I prefer here.   That 630 yards difference is huge.  Ideally I'd rather have something around 6300 there, but my brother and I play the Limes and we have a good time with it.  Note the Slag tees at 7705... just nuts from where I'm standing, although we sat in the restaurant eating lunch and watched other guys teeing off from the back tees on #1.  That 76.1 rating tells me that I'd need about 50 yards more out of my driver to even think about it.

[Aflighter]

theres gotta be a catch somewhere about those tees though .i mean a 10-19 handicap rated to play 6700 yards? also the next set of tees are for 5-9 handicap are 7200 yards?  im an 8 handicap and 6700 is long enough for that but 7200?most courses here in NC are not 7200 from the tips .from looking at that scorecard the only conclusion I can think of is that a lot of them holes play downhill quite a bit so the yardage doesn't play that far.its like playing 6500 at sea level will play a lot longer.

[Dave2512]

theres gotta be a catch somewhere about those tees though .i mean a 10-19 handicap rated to play 6700 yards? also the next set of tees are for 5-9 handicap are 7200 yards?  im an 8 handicap and 6700 is long enough for that but 7200?most courses here in NC are not 7200 from the tips .from looking at that scorecard the only conclusion I can think of is that a lot of them holes play downhill quite a bit so the yardage doesn't play that far.its like playing 6500 at sea level will play a lot longer.

Altitude, notice the rating is just under par for the 10-19 tees. Pretty much every newer course in CO is like this. My home course recommends 6600 yard tees for 12-17 and 6950 for 5-11.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aflighter

theres gotta be a catch somewhere about those tees though .i mean a 10-19 handicap rated to play 6700 yards? also the next set of tees are for 5-9 handicap are 7200 yards?  im an 8 handicap and 6700 is long enough for that but 7200?most courses here in NC are not 7200 from the tips .from looking at that scorecard the only conclusion I can think of is that a lot of them holes play downhill quite a bit so the yardage doesn't play that far.its like playing 6500 at sea level will play a lot longer.

Altitude, notice the rating is just under par for the 10-19 tees. Pretty much every newer course in CO is like this. My home course recommends 6600 yard tees for 12-17 and 6950 for 5-11.

This course is in Montana, and elevation is about 5500 feet.  There is no significant elevation gain or loss that would otherwise mitigate the length.  When I played there, it seemed to play longer than a similar length course in Denver.  Don't know why since the elevation is about the same.

[Dave2512]

This course is in Montana, and elevation is about 5500 feet.  There is no significant elevation gain or loss that would otherwise mitigate the length.  When I played there, it seemed to play longer than a similar length course in Denver.  Don't know why since the elevation is about the same.

Could be the design. We play a couple of courses of similar length here and some seem longer despite being nearly identical total yardage. I suspect the length of the par 4's plays a part. My home course is somewhat disproportionate, long par 4's and short par 5's. Everyone always comments how long it is but it's really the 450 yard par 4's that do it.

[vangator]

Yes, Ross Bridge is the course I was thinking of. The editor I use for this site does not allow me to capture quotes. Those 450 yard par 4s are the teeth of those courses. I rarely go for par 5s in two anymore because of the trouble with errant shots. I do a wedge for the 3rd shot and hope I make the putt. Those 200+ par 3s make a par look really good. Tough courses make you pay for missing the green too. And I believe the "Tee it Forward" concept is not to eliminate the driver. It is simply so the player can have shorter iron scoring opportunities which will speed up play. That's the real reason. Speed up play. There is nothing more frustrating than watching a player in the foursome in front of me constantly hit 50 yard worm burners from the tips. Makes for a slow day.

[Undr Par]

And I believe the "Tee it Forward" concept is not to eliminate the driver. It is simply so the player can have shorter iron scoring opportunities which will speed up play. That's the real reason. Speed up play. There is nothing more frustrating than watching a player in the foursome in front of me constantly hit 50 yard worm burners from the tips. Makes for a slow day.

I totally agree w/you