Idea to Get People to "Tee it Forward" More Often

[iacas]

Before I say anything, the poll is somehow goofed up. My "Yes" answer - which was first when I created the poll - is missing. The poll will not be accurate when the choices are "No" and "Maybe." Derrr. Not sure what happened. "Yes" was there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clubchamp

1. yes but I would also have a discount for players who can verify the index and want to play from a specific tee. Basically don't penalize better players that want to play from back tees.

Nah. I thought about it - even typed "okay, $5 off with a GHIN card showing you're a 5 or lower" but then I figured y'know what, nope. The lower handicapper is not required to play back. He can play up a tee or two also. If he wants to play back, he pays more, just like the higher handicapper.

Lower handicappers already invest more in golf than the others. $5 isn't going to kill them, and again, it's their choice. The goal is to get people to enjoy the game more, and play a little faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clubchamp

2. maybe but I agree with some of the other posters about being held up by other groups. I understand you're saying it's not a given but to offer something that would probably end up not being possible if you have a 11am tee time on saturday could get ugly.

Them's the breaks. I've read that this system works. It creates an incentive for everyone to speed up play. It makes it obvious to people that your slow play has a negative affect on others. If you employ a ranger, and there's a gap in groups, slow groups will be made to skip a hole and get to the place on the course where they should be, minimizing the chances of someone slowing someone else down.

This idea narrowly beat out the "Express Lane" concept. http://www.golfweek.com/news/2011/apr/21/slow-play-angel-park-express-lane/?Travel

Quote:

Want to play 18 holes in well under four hours? You need to get in the Express Lane.

That’s the name of a fast-play program being run on Saturday mornings at Angel Park Golf Club, a busy 36-hole facility in Las Vegas. Express Lane players sign a pledge agreeing to play in 3 hours, 45 minutes or less. Angel Park’s staff reserves the right to make groups skip holes or move to the other course if they’re not maintaining the proper pace.

So far that hasn’t been a problem, according to Greg Brockelman, Angel Park’s director of golf. Angel Park, which is managed by OB Sports, started the program in mid-February, and Brockelman said golfers have maintained the 3:45 pace. They’re actually averaging less than 3:30, and the record to date is a foursome that finished in 2:48. The program, he added, “has policed itself.”

You could do both at different times of the week. 3:45 is pretty good, but it's telling that their average is 3:30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clubchamp

Also playing from the back tees is more than just I hit the ball far enough that I need to play back there. Back tees are meant for the purpose of making the course harder all around not just to combat length. I've seen a lot of guys that hit it a long way and still have a 15 or 20 handicap so using length as an excuse to play from the back tees isn't all that valid.

Yep. Length isn't the best way and may be the fatal flaw in the "Tee it Forward" campaign. People think they hit the ball farther than they do, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshots

The whole idea of Tee if Forward is that people play courses in a way that they are playing proportionally equivalent distance to the PGA tour based on their driving distance.

Sorry. Pay a little more or move up to a tee where you won't shoot 90.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Idea 1. Great idea to ditch names and colours.

To be fair, that was just for the purpose of discussion in this thread. I don't care about tee colors or names. Tobacco Road names them "Spike" and "Rail" and stuff like that. Colors can imply things - red = ladies tee, black = back tees (or sometimes blue), white = seniors (sometimes, or yellow)... but whatever. I don't really care. I just used 1-5 for the purpose of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I think this would work for your average amateur as it would make them think twice before choosing a tee box, however there would be a lot of grumbling among low handicappers and pros. For example, I wouldn't play courses that charge me more for playing off the back tee out of principal.

Out of principle? Again, low handicappers already pay more and are welcome to play the middle tees for the same old price. Additionally, if you simply said the normal rate was $55 and offered "savings" for moving up, there'd be no "principle" for you to stand on... not that there's one to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Idea 2. Setting times for a round is tough. Also, you need to have a good ranger to stay on top of this as people would simply lie about when they finished to get the free drink or 10% discount. This would never work in Spain as EVERYBODY would lie.

If your tee time is 1:10, and you turn in your cart key at 6:15, sorry, no drink. If you turn in your cart key at 5:00, you win! Good to know Spain is full of liars, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattttt25

I voted no.  I understand the idea, but the logic of charging more money to play a harder set-up fails somewhat in my mind.  The bonus also seems flawed.

The bonus works. People are dismissing that one but it's the one that's being proven works. Look it up.

And how about this, again: charge less money to play forward tees. It's all in the marketing.

$55 to play this course.

Save $2 if you play one tee forward.

Save $5 if you play two tees forward.

Save $7 if you play three tees forward.

Save $10 if you play four tees forward.

There you go. You can choose to "save" money or you can pay the normal rate. Problem (perception/marketing problem) solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattttt25

The course management can affect pace of play and the enjoyment of the golfers more than anything else.  Proactive management is needed.  Educate the golfers before they play. Recommend tee boxes based on ability. Explain ready golf to everyone that plays. Install gps on carts and work hard towards no cart path rules. Make sure the gps has a round clock on it that reminds the group where they should be and if they are ahead or behind. And finally, have well trained rangers that are personable and can move groups along without coming off like an *ss.

The problems with your suggestions are that people don't like to be told these things. The guy who would tell them is answering the phone, talking to more customers, selling a putter, booking tee times for a week out, checking the weather, and doing 12 other things as well. He's not going to have time to - nor will golfers - give people a five-minute speech to "educate" golfers. It's simply not going to happen, and if it did, the golfers wouldn't change anything anyway. They'd do the same old stuff.

GPS in carts is great but it costs a few grand per cart just to install AND can actually decrease pace of play while people fiddle with the damn things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laconic517

The 1st idea penalizes low handicap golfers (the way you put it you could argue its just a discount for someone else, but the end result is the same)

It's well known that saying "save 20%" doesn't register as "spend 80%."

The first idea rewards golfers who choose to play farther forward.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

To be fair, that was just for the purpose of discussion in this thread. I don't care about tee colors or names. Tobacco Road names them "Spike" and "Rail" and stuff like that. Colors can imply things - red = ladies tee, black = back tees (or sometimes blue), white = seniors (sometimes, or yellow)... but whatever. I don't really care. I just used 1-5 for the purpose of this thread.

Out of principle? Again, low handicappers already pay more and are welcome to play the middle tees for the same old price. Additionally, if you simply said the normal rate was $55 and offered "savings" for moving up, there'd be no "principle" for you to stand on... not that there's one to begin with.

If your tee time is 1:10, and you turn in your cart key at 6:15, sorry, no drink. If you turn in your cart key at 5:00, you win! Good to know Spain is full of liars, though.

Personally, I think changing the name of the tee boxes helps. Telling the average man he should play from the red or ladies' tee box doesn't help the cause. The old stereotypes etc. need to go and each tee box based purely on distance from the green.

Sorry, I meant principle not headmaster! There is a principle to stand on as I will know the price for playing from the other tee boxes. It is quite simple, I am being charged more for being a better player. I don't understand your comment about low handicappers already pay more, so charging them more is OK because they are used to it? It should be the other way around, we should be charged less for playing more! ;-)

I've lived in Spain for almost 30 years now and the latin attitude towards 'cheating' is different to the US/UK's. It is not considered cheating but being smart (beating the system). Funnily enough, if you called them a cheat or a liar they'd be highly offended!

[jamo]

And how about this, again: charge less money to play forward tees. It's all in the marketing.

$55 to play this course.

Save $2 if you play one tee forward.

Save $5 if you play two tees forward.

Save $7 if you play three tees forward.

Save $10 if you play four tees forward.

There you go. You can choose to "save" money or you can pay the normal rate. Problem (perception/marketing problem) solved.

I like that a lot better, if only because other people will like it a lot more. It just looks like you are saving money, and I think that will go a long way with people. I've always wondered with tee boxes what would happen if you simply reversed the colors. Make black and blue the front tees, and make the back tees pink and purple (staying away from more ambiguous colors like red, yellow, white, and green). Not sure if it would do a whole lot, but it might be an interesting experiment for sure.

[laconic517]

Originally Posted by iacas

It's well known that saying "save 20%" doesn't register as "spend 80%."

The first idea rewards golfers who choose to play farther forward.

Depends on how you look at it, I would feel like the forward tee is the base price, and im paying extra to play the longer tees.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by jamo

I've always wondered with tee boxes what would happen if you simply reversed the colors. Make black and blue the front tees, and make the back tees pink and purple (staying away from more ambiguous colors like red, yellow, white, and green). Not sure if it would do a whole lot, but it might be an interesting experiment for sure.

Not a bad idea. Worth a try.

[ghalfaire]

I believe the #1 idea is a good one and would create a situation that encourages players to move forward for reasons other than how far they can hit the driver (lots of testosterone poisoning in golf it seems).  The #2 idea might work, but as mentioned above, not sure how you would handle a slow group in front of you.  Rangers would need to be diligent in keeping the pace of play up to speed but it has been my experience that most rangers don't like to do that.  But again it is a good idea as it gives an incentive to play ready golf.  I would personally give shop credit for quick rounds and let you accumulate it over a specific period so one might afford to purchase Pro V1s.

But I admit some misgivings, I voted maybe, because I still believe slow play is a function of slow players and not a function of a player's handicap or driving distance.  Slow play is much more strongly related to the way a player conducts them self on the course and only moderately related to their skill level, IMHO.  But this is worth a try and anyone trying to come up with ideas that encourage faster play deserves credit.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

$55 to play this course.

Save $2 if you play one tee forward.

Save $5 if you play two tees forward.

Save $7 if you play three tees forward.

Save $10 if you play four tees forward.

There you go. You can choose to "save" money or you can pay the normal rate. Problem (perception/marketing problem) solved.

Yeah, that's a better idea. However, I think the discount per tee box needs to be revised as there is not much difference between each one. Do you think people willing to pay $55 for a round of golf are then going to nit pick over a few $? I don't think so. $75 to play this course, save $10 if you play one tee forward, $20 if you play two tees forward, up to save $40 if you play four tees forward would work better.

[rogerw]

I like that a lot better, if only because other people will like it a lot more. It just looks like you are saving money, and I think that will go a long way with people.

Agreed, it is all perception but people want to feel like they are saving money, not being charged more for something especially when that something could be spun as a positve as in this case. Its just human nature. The initial price increase may cause some negative complaints, however that will subside pretty quickly as most folks have really short memories these days

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Personally, I think changing the name of the tee boxes helps.

Not entirely relevant to the discussion, but whatever. :-) Call the tees whatever you want. My home course is called "Whispering Woods" and if it were up to me the tees might be named "Oak, Maple, Cherry, Pine, and Willow" or something. Maybe even in that order, long to short. ;-)

Originally Posted by laconic517

Depends on how you look at it, I would feel like the forward tee is the base price, and im paying extra to play the longer tees.

You say that, but there's plenty of studies that disagree. "Save $10 off $55" is perceived vastly differently than "Pay $10 more" going the other direction.

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I believe the #1 idea is a good one and would create a situation that encourages players to move forward for reasons other than how far they can hit the driver (lots of testosterone poisoning in golf it seems).  The #2 idea might work, but as mentioned above, not sure how you would handle a slow group in front of you.

How about this, guys: they could ask to play through. "Hey, guys, sorry, but we're trying to bust around here in 4:00. Mind if we play through? We'll be out of your way in five minutes." We do it already.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Yeah, that's a better idea. However, I think the discount per tee box needs to be revised as there is not much difference between each one. Do you think people willing to pay $55 for a round of golf are then going to nit pick over a few $? I don't think so. $75 to play this course, save $10 if you play one tee forward, $20 if you play two tees forward, up to save $40 if you play four tees forward would work better.

Yes, people will save a few bucks. Again, there's a ton of data and science behind this all. Retail science - I spent a while studying it because it fascinated me (did you know that stores pipe in certain smells that help to induce buying, for example?). People love to feel that they've gotten a bargain, regardless of how small. You complained about paying more for playing tees farther back, and now you want to pay more (because you need the room to discount the forward tees so heavily)!? Small discounts would work.

Originally Posted by rogerw

Agreed, it is all perception but people want to feel like they are saving money, not being charged more for something especially when that something could be spun as a positve as in this case. Its just human nature. The initial price increase may cause some negative complaints, however that will subside pretty quickly as most folks have really short memories these days

Yeah, and you could do it the next spring. "2012 rate - $55." Or drop them for two weeks while you're aerating in the fall and then bump them up. Or just bump them up when you switch seasons if you're in a warm-weather state, like Florida. Summer rates - $45 - Fall rates - $65 (used to be $60).

I was just laying out the idea in the first post. I think you easily sell it to people as "save if you move forward."

[uttexas]

I like idea # 1 as is. Most good players would be willing to pay an extra 5% to play from the back tees but wouldn't pay an extra 10% to pay from the tips. The only problem I see with this idea is that there are plenty of slow playing attorneys that would be itching to file a class action suit. Idea #2 Pace of play--this is difficult on public courses in that your pace is determined by the group(s) in front. I generally support the carrot and stick method to encourage desired behavior. Print people's names in a widely available publication (local sport section) in the under 3hr30min round club if they play 18 holes in under 210minutes three times in a row. Or award tee time privileges to those in the under 3hr30min round club. Three parking spots reserved for the three fastest players. Anyone with a round longer than 4hrs30min will not be able to get a tee time before 11am. This data could be collected in a national data bank that could be accessed by every golf course with a computer.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by uttexas

This data could be collected in a national data bank that could be accessed by every golf course with a computer.

Ha! Kinda like GHIN but for pace of play! Love it! :-D

And about those lawyers... they'll file lawsuits over "save $5 if you play two tees forward" but not THIS!?!?! Ha! :-)

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Yes, people will save a few bucks. Again, there's a ton of data and science behind this all. Retail science - I spent a while studying it because it fascinated me (did you know that stores pipe in certain smells that help to induce buying, for example?). People love to feel that they've gotten a bargain, regardless of how small. You complained about paying more for playing tees farther back, and now you want to pay more (because you need the room to discount the forward tees so heavily)!? Small discounts would work.

All I'm saying is I wouldn't be happy being charged more than anybody else because I want to play off the back tee box. You can spin it as much as you like, people are not stupid and will realise this immediately. Obviously, there are a lot of variables here and it depends on the course, its condition etc. and what the top-end green fee is. For example, I would gladly pay $75 to play Augusta National off the back tee box even though I could save $2 to play one tee box further forward!

I am not looking at this from my point of view, but the clubs. I have no idea how much a club needs to make per player to break even or make a profit. I used your $55 as the middle tee. Perhaps $55, $45, $35, $25, $15 would work but then I have no idea if that would be commercially viable or not.

Re: the smells, yes I'd heard that. I also heard that McDonald's, Burger King etc. have red and yellow logos as it has been proven seeing those colours makes people hungry! I'm not sure if that is true or not. Anyway, small discounts work if you are buying toothpaste at $3 and you see one for $1.50, but not when it comes to green fees.

[uttexas]

Ha! Kinda like GHIN but for pace of play! Love it! :-D

And about those lawyers... they'll file lawsuits over "save $5 if you play two tees forward" but not THIS!?!?! Ha! :-)

Yeh, they'd sue the creators/maintainers of the data bank. Surprised the ACLU lawyers haven't sent a cease and desist to the USGA over the term "handicap".

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

You can spin it as much as you like, people are not stupid and will realise this immediately.

Anyway, small discounts work if you are buying toothpaste at $3 and you see one for $1.50, but not when it comes to green fees.

Wrong and wrong (and fwiw, you're almost always wrong if your argument involves "people are not stupid" ). Do some research. People get excited about much smaller discounts than you seem to think. Even $3.00 versus $2.99 will show remarkable results.

Originally Posted by uttexas

Yeh, they'd sue the creators/maintainers of the data bank. Surprised the ACLU lawyers haven't sent a cease and desist to the USGA over the term "handicap".

Heh heh.

Anyway, back to the topic... which isn't retail science or the ACLU. ;-)

[Mizuno Guy]

I dont think/ dont like option 1. The only way to get people to play from the right set of tees is by having tees based on handicap not colors.

Tee 1: Women, Senior Citizens, and Kids under 12

Tee 2: Max and better

Tee 3: 20 and better

Tee 4: 12 and better

Tee 5: 5 and better

This way people will be required to play the right set of tees.

Like the rest of the country I'm sick of playing with people who hit driver, fairway wood then wedge into par 4's when they could move up and hit driver iron into par 4's.

[baseballfrk8998]

Originally Posted by Mizuno Guy

I dont think/ dont like option 1. The only way to get people to play from the right set of tees is by having tees based on handicap not colors.

Tee 1: Women, Senior Citizens, and Kids under 12

Tee 2: Max and better

Tee 3: 20 and better

Tee 4: 12 and better

Tee 5: 5 and better

This way people will be required to play the right set of tees.

Like the rest of the country I'm sick of playing with people who hit driver, fairway wood then wedge into par 4's when they could move up and hit driver iron into par 4's.

This could work but not everyone that plays golf has a handicap. I, myself, don't have a handicap. I go out and play usually 18 holes 1-2 times a week and 9 holes/practice on course 1-2 times a week. If I didn't have a handicap then what set of tees would I be required to play? I practice/play 2-3 times a week at least so would I still have to play Tee 2?

IMO none of it adds up. It doesn't make sense to charge people less because they are playing from tees that are closer. If the club doesn't want people to play from the tips then they can go pick up the markers for that tee box or just move the tee box up. It's that simple.. That's just MY opinion though. I play the tees from which I'm comfortable and I don't slow anyone down.

[anotherday]

Originally Posted by Mizuno Guy

I dont think/ dont like option 1. The only way to get people to play from the right set of tees is by having tees based on handicap not colors.

Tee 1: Women, Senior Citizens, and Kids under 12

Wow... just slightly sexist. So.. women, regardless of skill just don't get to play back tees huh? Because they don't hit as far as a big grown man right?

And senior citizens have had their chance to play back tees so they need to know that their time has come and gone and scoot to the front so you can enjoy your golf. Right?

Nah you couldn't have possibly meant to post that.

[sean_miller]

I voted maybe.

The only way I'd consider paying more to play the tips is if I get a discount to the base rate for finishing on time and the guy playing the forward tees pays a penalty for playing too slow. And regardless of what tee I'm playing, if I'm waiting on the group ahead on every shot and they're not waiting on the group ahead of them, they should be forced to skip a hole or pay some of my greens fees.