Idea to Get People to "Tee it Forward" More Often

[jshots]

The more I think about it the less I think tee it forward is a good use of time and money. I don't know that it really improves pace of play all that much and I don't know how much happier people are playing up a set of tees. It sort of seems like it is a lot of effort going into something that in the best case scenario will only do a little bit. It might be more valuable to do something different like the pace of play handicap someone mentioned.

On another note, I played 9 holes today from the tips of a 7100 yard course and played no worse than I play from one or even two tees further up.

[Harmonious]

If golf courses were really serious about moving players to shorter tees, all they would have to do is to stop maintaining the tees they want to eliminate. Stop mowing the tips, or the blues, or whatever.  But that would penalize the golfers who legitimately can play from those tees.

Unless you have a way to constantly monitor each group on each teebox, there is really no way to make a group move up a teebox. I suppose you could tell them on the first tee which teebox to use, based on the price they paid that day, but they could easily move back on the 2nd tee, unless there was someone stationed there. And that would not be a good use of golf course resources, when those marshals are better used to monitor pace of play.

Except for the idea of providing some benefit (free round of drinks, for example) for those groups that beat the "time par", I just don't see how this could be enforced.

[boogielicious]

I think 1 would be tough to sell.  #2 might work if they gave a coupon for the pro shop or restaurant.  It can't be too much or courses would lose money.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jshots

The more I think about it the less I think tee it forward is a good use of time and money. I don't know that it really improves pace of play all that much and I don't know how much happier people are playing up a set of tees.

That's only one of the goals. And I guarantee that moving up sets of tees saves time. Not necessarily a lot, but since that's only one of their goals ("have more fun" being another one), I think it's fine. Plenty of studies show this. Lower scores, less time spent looking for balls, less forced carries, etc.

Originally Posted by jshots

On another note, I played 9 holes today from the tips of a 7100 yard course and played no worse than I play from one or even two tees further up.

First, you should score better from shorter tees. If you don't, your course management or some other things are suspect.

Also, you're one data point. You may very well be an exception, but in the grand scheme of things, it's just one data point of millions.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Unless you have a way to constantly monitor each group on each teebox, there is really no way to make a group move up a teebox. And that would not be a good use of golf course resources, when those marshals are better used to monitor pace of play.

As I said, flags on the carts would say "this group is using tee #3". The marshals could easily do both. It's not like you'd be watching on every tee. If a marshal saw a group going off the wrong tees he'd dock them. Random reinforcement works best anyway, psychologically speaking.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Except for the idea of providing some benefit (free round of drinks, for example) for those groups that beat the "time par", I just don't see how this could be enforced.

As stated already, if your tee time is 1:10. If you turn in your keys before 5:10, you played in under 4:00. It's not that complex...?

I will add this... I could very well be wrong. It might not work at all. But I don't think that's the case. ;-) I think this plan could work. I also like the "express lane" concept.

[Mizuno Guy]

Originally Posted by anotherday

Wow... just slightly sexist. So.. women, regardless of skill just don't get to play back tees huh? Because they don't hit as far as a big grown man right?

And senior citizens have had their chance to play back tees so they need to know that their time has come and gone and scoot to the front so you can enjoy your golf. Right?

Nah you couldn't have possibly meant to post that.

It was a general idea clearly there would have to be exceptions.

Let's be honest here the way tee markers are set up is so everyone will have about the same distance into the hole. However they really need to be set up so people are going to have the same club into the green. From 150 yards I hit 9 iron and some of the people I have played with are hitting woods from 150 yards so it makes more sense for them to be hitting their approach shots from 80 yards or so.

[x129]

At a 13 handicap you are probably in the top 20% of the field going out (depending on the course).  Your pace of play is dictated more by other things (how long it takes to set up and swing, how long you read putts,...) while the 30 handicapper is spending his whole round hitting the ball 100 yards at a time and looking in the rough for the ball.

I wonder how much technology could help. Obviously things like GPS for distance saves a bit of time but how about tracking balls. If every hole had something like a flight scope there, would you be able to locate the ball with in like 10 yards?

Originally Posted by jshots

The more I think about it the less I think tee it forward is a good use of time and money. I don't know that it really improves pace of play all that much and I don't know how much happier people are playing up a set of tees. It sort of seems like it is a lot of effort going into something that in the best case scenario will only do a little bit. It might be more valuable to do something different like the pace of play handicap someone mentioned.

On another note, I played 9 holes today from the tips of a 7100 yard course and played no worse than I play from one or even two tees further up.

[mattttt25]

What you just described is a sh*tty course in my mind.  Not enough staff, one guy working the pro shop?  How about the starter and the rangers?  And I completely disagree that people don't listen.  It is proven in every organization and industry that people will adapt and follow guidance and rules when properly indoctrinated and educated.  Do you think golf just became a gentleman's sport by chance?  No, new golfers followed the precedence set by those they watched and played next to.

I'm not saying the idea is terrible, I just think we look at it differently.  You want to build a system that works with no influence from management, and I think management is the only way to accomplish the goal.  You're using money to keep the course short and reward fast play (although it only works if everyone is looking for the bonus.)

I don't want to come off like a rich *ss, because I'm not.  And maybe it's geographic in nature.  But saving $5 or even $10 on a round isn't going to make me shorten the course or speed up play.  Courses I play (about 10 in the area) cost $65-100 per round.  Add cost of drinks, food, tips for cart girl, tips for kid that wipes down my clubs, etc, etc, and it's a $120+ day pretty much every time.

What does work is knowing a course is well managed and well staffed.  I've witnessed it and it works.  Pro shop welcomes you to the course and while checking you in, talks about pace of play and course rules.  Starter then takes 5 minutes to reaffirm what ready golf is, makes recommendations on proper tee box, even shows you how to properly repair a divot and gives you a cheap little plastic tool if you don't have one.  1-2 rangers actively roaming the course, asking you to speed up if necessary.  When a group of guys witness this, they think to themselves, "wow, nice course, they are focused on making this a nice day for us."

And concerning gps, there is no fiddling.  Other than pushing a button to order lunch at the turn, you don't touch the thing.  It's active, gives you distances at real time, and again reminds you if you are ahead or behind.  With all the discussions concerning gps and range finders, the one commonality is that they speed play by eliminating the pacing off of sprinkler heads.  I'm sure you've played with a fore caddy before- talk about a fast round.  Why?  Someone is there always educating you about the hole, giving you distances, etc.

Again, just difference in opinion.  I will also gravitate towards a course that is well run, because I know my chances of having an enjoyable day is better.

Originally Posted by iacas

The problems with your suggestions are that people don't like to be told these things. The guy who would tell them is answering the phone, talking to more customers, selling a putter, booking tee times for a week out, checking the weather, and doing 12 other things as well. He's not going to have time to - nor will golfers - give people a five-minute speech to "educate" golfers. It's simply not going to happen, and if it did, the golfers wouldn't change anything anyway. They'd do the same old stuff.

GPS in carts is great but it costs a few grand per cart just to install AND can actually decrease pace of play while people fiddle with the damn things.

[The Recreational Golfer]

NIce concept, but what would you do with walkers? Also, the last thing a course needs is marshals running around looking out for tee poachers, not to mention the arguments that would ensue.

Number 2 is a great idea, but what if a group that can get around in 4:15 gets behind some slow-pokes? There goes the next-round discount for a group that should have earned it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mattttt25

What you just described is a sh*tty course in my mind. Not enough staff, one guy working the pro shop? How about the starter and the rangers? And I completely disagree that people don't listen. It is proven in every organization and industry that people will adapt and follow guidance and rules when properly indoctrinated and educated.  Do you think golf just became a gentleman's sport by chance?  No, new golfers followed the precedence set by those they watched and played next to.

Most courses don't have rangers. Most courses don't have starters... Most courses get by with one guy in the pro shop. Most of the courses that do have any of those things don't have them except during the busy times. They're not "shitty" courses - they're getting by in a time when average rounds are down. If that's a "shitty" golf course to you, then congratulations: you must play the top 5-10% of golf courses.

People don't listen. They feel entitled, and goddammit, they've been golfing for 32 years and are not gonna listen to some punk kid in the pro shop... not to mention the fact that the guy in the pro shop doesn't have 10 minutes 30 times a day to give the speech. What are you gonna do - make a video and make each foursome watch it? Give them a quiz on it afterwards or they can't play? On a "real golf course" budget, that is... not your $85 courses.

And don't give me this "golf is a gentleman's game" crap. If that were still true, none of this would be necessary . If golf was a game played only by people who cared about others, we wouldn't need rangers. We wouldn't need starters. We wouldn't need to "educate" people on the pace of play. It's 2011. People feel entitled. They think "I paid, so I'm going to see the whole golf course and take my goddamn time so I can enjoy this place, why's everyone else in such a rush?" Guys drink beer on the golf course. Guys don't repair ball marks or divots as often as they should. Golf is a long ways from tweed jackets and a wee nip of gin at the turn and being able to play 54 holes in a day if you want because it'd only take 9-10 hours total.

Originally Posted by mattttt25

I don't want to come off like a rich *ss, because I'm not.  And maybe it's geographic in nature.  But saving $5 or even $10 on a round isn't going to make me shorten the course or speed up play.

So you're in the minority. Congratulations. A lot of people will consider the savings and take advantage of them. People love to "save" even small amounts of money. If you spend $120/round, you're in a small minority. If your rounds cost $65-$100 just for the golf, you're in a small minority.

Originally Posted by mattttt25

When a group of guys witness this, they think to themselves, "wow, nice course, they are focused on making this a nice day for us."

They've also spent $30 to $50 more than a lot of people spend on a round of golf, so the course can afford a pair of rangers and a starter. And yet... I doubt the average pace of play at these non-shitty courses you play is under 4:00.

Originally Posted by mattttt25

And concerning gps, there is no fiddling.  Other than pushing a button to order lunch at the turn, you don't touch the thing. It's active, gives you distances at real time, and again reminds you if you are ahead or behind.

That's not been my experience watching people use them. Again, not only do the in-cart GPS cost entirely too much per cart to install, but a lot of people fiddle with them. They change views. They try to use it to keep their scores. They constantly check it to see how far away the carts in the foursome ahead of themselves are. They have to keep pressing the buttons to get the ads off the screen.

That's different than a personal laser or a personal GPS. Operation of those is familiar to you, and a laser is literally point and click. Some uPros and SkyCaddies can lead to fiddling, but if you've played the course enough times it typically doesn't. If you've played the courses you play often enough, you're likely familiar with your cart-based GPS systems, too.

But I don't really care about the in-cart GPS. Small point. The facts are that they cost a lot, and we're simply comparing our experiences when talking about how well they're used by the average dude.

[sean_miller]

I applaud any effort that makes the game faster and I agree that most players would be better served playing from a teebox that allows them to hit a reliable long club to the prime landing area (typically somewhere in the 100 to 175 yard range). Speaking just for myself though, I have a serious problem with the prospect of paying more for the right to use every club in my bag. As it is, I only get to use a driver on 4-6 holes at our local courses (we don't have the 7000 yarders that are so commonplace on the internet). On the other hand, if I'm ever playing a course where I have to use a driver to reach the 150 on every par 4, then I need to move the H up!

Regarding golf cart GPS. I've never played a round in a cart with a paths only policy and thought, "wow, that cart GPS sure save us time during the round".  Even the personal units slow people down. Sure experienced users who plan ahead are fast, but I never seem to run into you guys during a round. I always meet the guy who's still learning how to use it. I have a laser rangefinder and used it enough to make sure my local course markers are spot on, and personal experience tells me there's no rangefinder or GPS that is ever faster for a walker than taking note of the yardage markers as you walk past them, then doing a quick estimate. Is that as accurate? No, but for the vast majority of shots taken by the vast majority of golfers, it's accurate enough.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

As it is, I only get to use a driver on 4-6 holes at our local courses (we don't have the 7000 yarders that are so commonplace on the internet).

Shorter courses wouldn't need this (any of this "tee it forward" stuff) at all. Even if most people played the back tees, but the back tees are only 6500 yards, then it's not relevant.

There are some courses on which I'll play the back tees... and so will my brother in law who shoots 95... because they're only 6457 yards. On courses longer than that I'll just play up with him at some tees around that yardage.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Regarding golf cart GPS. I've never played a round in a cart with a paths only policy and thought, "wow, that cart GPS sure save us time during the round".  Even the personal units slow people down. Sure experienced users who plan ahead are fast, but I never seem to run into you guys during a round. I always meet the guy who's still learning how to use it. I have a laser rangefinder and used it enough to make sure my local course markers are spot on, and personal experience tells me there's no rangefinder or GPS that is ever faster for a walker than taking note of the yardage markers as you walk past them, then doing a quick estimate. Is that as accurate? No, but for the vast majority of shots taken by the vast majority of golfers, it's accurate enough.

Not really the topic here, so let's try to avoid straying too far.

Really do need to get to the cooking out now. ;-)

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

So you're in the minority. Congratulations. A lot of people will consider the savings and take advantage of them. People love to "save" even small amounts of money. If you spend $120/round, you're in a small minority. If your rounds cost $65-$100 just for the golf, you're in a small minority.

Nope, he's in the majority. I tried to tell you this. Because I was so convinced about this issue, I decided to do some research today as you recommended. I asked 20 random members of my club if they would consider playing further forward for a discount (i.e. the small discounts you mention above). They all said no, they'd play from where they wanted to unless they were told they HAD to play from another tee box. Obviously, we talked about a semi-decent golf course costing around 50 Euros to play and they were not members of (if you are a member of a club here in Spain, you either pay nothing per round or anything up to 6 Euros). When pressed for a price to consider playing from a tee further forward, pretty much all said 30 Euros or less. Once again, if you are willing to pay 50 Euros to play a round of golf, a 2 Euro discount is peanuts.

OK, so golf in Spain is very expensive (fourth most expensive in the world, I think) and probably the reason why only 330,000 people play out of a population of 46 million. If you are talking about golf courses where the green fee is $10, then yes, a couple of bucks here and there could make the difference, but you weren't as you mentioned $55 in your example.

[saevel25]

My only problem is how do you enforce them once they get out of sight of the Starter.. Do you pay a starter just to roam the course, knowing which people play which sets of tees.. Enforcement is huge..

I do agree that something needs to change. It happened this weekend with me, the group infront of my group had two guys playing a 6800 back tees. I suspect there dads, were playing the senior tees, 5500 i think. At one hole, they dads were yelling back were there tee shots landed because the hole is only 320 from the back, but blind if you try to cut the corner to the green. They interrupted my uncles golf swing. Also on the first hole, the guy tops his drive. I mean come on.

The playing time is interesting. I only have problems when people play bad. Given you do have 5 minutes to look for a lost ball, i think sometimes the a bad day can really slow down play. I think the rules of golf contridicts themselves when they try to enforce speed of play, and they allow such a long time to look for a ball. I do like the clocks, were you can check your time to see if your matching there clocks on the course. That is a nice reminder..

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Nope, he's in the majority. I tried to tell you this. Because I was so convinced about this issue, I decided to do some research today as you recommended. I asked 20 random members of my club if they would consider playing further forward for a discount (i.e. the small discounts you mention above). They all said no, they'd play from where they wanted to unless they were told they HAD to play from another tee box. Obviously, we talked about a semi-decent golf course costing around 50 Euros to play and they were not members of (if you are a member of a club here in Spain, you either pay nothing per round or anything up to 6 Euros). When pressed for a price to consider playing from a tee further forward, pretty much all said 30 Euros or less. Once again, if you are willing to pay 50 Euros to play a round of golf, a 2 Euro discount is peanuts.

OK, so golf in Spain is very expensive (fourth most expensive in the world, I think) and probably the reason why only 330,000 people play out of a population of 46 million. If you are talking about golf courses where the green fee is $10, then yes, a couple of bucks here and there could make the difference, but you weren't as you mentioned $55 in your example.

Just because 20 random members at your club agrees with you doesn't mean that you are in the majority... just that you are in the majority at your club.  The average golfer would be more than happy to "save" $5 to $10 dollars to play a closer tee.  You have to remember that the average golfer isn't a member at a club and more than likely doesn't have the money to be one if they wanted.  They are just average joes that want to play a couple of rounds a month without breaking the bank.

[baseballfrk8998]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Just because 20 random members at your club agrees with you doesn't mean that you are in the majority... just that you are in the majority at your club.  The average golfer would be more than happy to "save" $5 to $10 dollars to play a closer tee.  You have to remember that the average golfer isn't a member at a club and more than likely doesn't have the money to be one if they wanted.  They are just average joes that want to play a couple of rounds a month without breaking the bank.

I have a hard time believing that the average golfer would rather save 5 or 10 bucks and play the "women's" tees.. It's all about testosterone in today's society.. The Miller Lite golf commercial for example..

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Just because 20 random members at your club agrees with you doesn't mean that you are in the majority... just that you are in the majority at your club.  The average golfer would be more than happy to "save" $5 to $10 dollars to play a closer tee.  You have to remember that the average golfer isn't a member at a club and more than likely doesn't have the money to be one if they wanted.  They are just average joes that want to play a couple of rounds a month without breaking the bank.

I could have asked all 3,000 members but they weren't in the clubhouse yesterday after my round.

People willing to pay $55 to play golf are not worried about breaking the bank. If a couple of dollars is making the difference, they have bigger worries than their handicaps.

[SamW]

Having played golf both sides of the atlantic, and generally witnessed much slower play on the US side (rounds often taking over 4 hours sometimes over 5 hours vs rounds rarely taking more than 3h40m in the UK) I can say that I don't think that course length has much to do with slow play so I don't see it making a big difference. Although I would say that for a lot of amateurs would enjoy golf more of the shorter tees.

The reasons I see that play is slower are these:

- everybody playing strokeplay all the time, therefore always holing out every hole. In the UK the main format is matchplay where you pick your ball up whenever you are out of the hole. At least if most people played stableford and picked up on net double bogey it would speed a lot up.

- generally people not being ready to play, especially on the green while your buddy is putting you can still be lining up your putt/shot so you are ready to hit it very soon after they do.

Don't take any of this the wrong way, the vast majority of players I've played with in the US are very aware of slow play and don't want it. But it really only takes 1-2 groups on the course to add an hour to everybodies round. Put it this way, if you have 4 golfers hitting around 90 shots on a course, each 10 seconds added to each players shot is worth an hour to the round... so not being ready to play is by far the biggest time killer, its got nothing to do with playing of the back pegs.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by iacas

As I said, flags on the carts would say "this group is using tee #3". The marshals could easily do both. It's not like you'd be watching on every tee. If a marshal saw a group going off the wrong tees he'd dock them. Random reinforcement works best anyway, psychologically speaking.

I like the ideas. I have a question on this quote though.  Are you going to make all players in the group play from the same tees?