Jack Nicklaus on a Centered Pivot

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by iacas

Not a big one for pictures, are you John? It's nowhere near 90%.

The video at :45 would be what percentage, in your estimation? Closer to 90% or closer to 50%.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

The video at :45 would be what percentage, in your estimation? Closer to 90% or closer to 50%.

haha, his left foot nearly comes off the ground completely at :45. You have to understand, they wont ever be able to see it, cause they dont want to.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

His arms and club alone on the back swing are enough to make a weight transfer of about 70/30

Your arms and the clubhead do not account for 20%, especially if you're Jack and your ass is about as much as your arms.

Seriously, you're including "the club" as something which "shifts weight?" The club weighs what percentage is that of a 220 pound guy? About 0.5%? Great.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Pause the video at :45 and tell me that's 50/50.  Only in your imagination.

0:45? Uhhhh....

Yep. Great camera views y'all have chosen. Really, peachy.

Heck, let's look at it this way. How much of Jack's weight is "in front of" the golf ball? In the left image, it's about 75% of his weight is "forward." And in the one on the right, oh MY! Somehow Jack Nicklaus has gotten ALL OF HIS WEIGHT FORWARD?!?! WOW!

That's sarcasm. Seriously, you can't look at "weight distribution" from camera views like this. You need either face-on or something 180˚ on the other side - a good REAR view.

Originally Posted by motteler621

haha, his left foot nearly comes off the ground completely at :45. You have to understand, they wont ever be able to see it, cause they dont want to.

Maybe "we can't see it" because you're not using the right words. You can dynamically lift your heel but, statically, your weight can still be over your left foot. When you jump in the air, do you become mass-less? No. Your body still has the same mass. Phil said it already:

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Make a swing where your weight goes FORWARD in the backswing but you still lift your left heel off the ground. It's completely possible.

Go ahead. Try it. If you STOP MOVING you'll feel the weight, probably in your toes. Jack's left heel doesn't demonstrate a shift in the location of his center of gravity. If you think it does, you've got an odd definition of weight. It's not "pressure." You can generate pressure that exceeds your weight, and thus far I haven't seen anyone talking about how someone's pressures are 110/50 at the top of the backswing...

Say what you want, but the thread started with a quote from Jack, as Phil said. You're arguing against that.

[mvmac]

Ok so we know Jack hit the ball high and far.  To hit it high, low point has to be forward, which means the weight is forward at impact.  Jack's head didn't move, so he had a centered pivot which means there isn't a lot if any weight going back and forth in order to get it so far forward at impact.  We know that to stay centered the left shoulder has to move downward and back the same amount.  Here are some pics to consider

[Harmonious]

From a Lorne Rubenstein article in Golf Canada:

"Many knowledgeable teachers, including Jim McLean, disagree with some of Plummer and Bennett's key ideas. McLean showed me photos that he said defied anybody to argue that Nicklaus didn't transfer weight on his backswing. The debates will continue as long as golf is played."

I'll leave it at that.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

"Many knowledgeable teachers, including Jim McLean, disagree with some of Plummer and Bennett's key ideas. McLean showed me photos that he said defied anybody to argue that Nicklaus didn't transfer weight on his backswing. The debates will continue as long as golf is played."

You're reading too much into things. Nobody here is talking about S&T;, Jim McLean, Mike Bennett, or Andy Plummer. They're talking about Jack Nicklaus, and more specifically, a quote from him in which he says "I don't believe in a lateral shift" and "I believe in staying on the ball" and that people who advocate a weight shift - "They don't know how to play."

Hell, I'd disagree with him on the last point if I thought for one second he was talking about weight going forward in the downswing. But he can't think that at all.

The Golfing Machine lists three Basic Essentials and three Basic Imperatives, beginning with the Basic Essentials, as:

1. A stationary Head

Oops. I'll just stop there.

This thread is for discussion of Jack's quote. Kindly stick to the topic and stop reading into things, please.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by iacas

You're reading too much into things. Nobody here is talking about S&T;, Jim McLean, Mike Bennett, or Andy Plummer. They're talking about Jack Nicklaus, and more specifically, a quote from him in which he says "I don't believe in a lateral shift" and "I believe in staying on the ball" and that people who advocate a weight shift - "They don't know how to play."

Hell, I'd disagree with him on the last point if I thought for one second he was talking about weight going forward in the downswing. But he can't think that at all.

So your definition of the term " weight shift " is only when there is a move laterally off the ball on the backswing?

[michaeljames92]

I tell you what, there are some serious muppets on this board. At the end of the day, when the dust settles, you can believe whatever you want, frankly we don't give a crap. If you want to believe that his weight shifts back so far then great, believe that, but you're wrong. It may shift slightly more on the right like max 55/45, but what is important is the fact his head stays very centred, it doesn't move to his back leg like modern instructors often teach. When your leg is straight, it is hard to shift a lot of weight to your right side. Simple physics and logic tells you a steady head and body allows you to keep your swing bottom in a reasonably steady place. Not only will your contact be better, but your curve is easier to predict.

I know which swing I'd rather have.

[motteler621]

Phil sent me a pm on this thread and I replied with this...I think thats pretty much all I have to add to this thread,, some people get too wound up over this stuff.

When I said weight shift Im only talking about the legs. Some weight is going from 50/50 to more on the back leg so 40/60,, whatever it is. I dont really care what you guys believe in because different things work for different people, you would understand that from being an instructor,, right? I find my hip movement, weight movement and club path to be much more dynamic and consistent when I put more weight into my back leg on the backswing but stay centered. It gives me a much more dynamic move forward on the downswing. If it works for me it probably works for alot of people. When I see videos of Jack and other players it looks alot like they are doing the same thing. We will never know exactly what they did but I think you opinion is just as important as mine and others.

[sean_miller]

I've only had a few lessons, and I haven't read as many instruction manuals as you guys. but I've never heard nor read anyone promoting lateral head movement. Some movement is almost unavoidable, but to say modern teachers are asking people to sway off the ball and move their head over their right leg? When and where did someone ever receive that information during a formal instruction?

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

But I've never heard nor read anyone promoting lateral head movement. Some movement is almost unavoidable, but to say modern teachers are asking people to sway off the ball and move their head over their right leg? When and where did someone ever receive that information during a formal instruction?

Google "left shoulder over right knee".

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Google "left shoulder over right knee".

Maybe you've delved deeper into this, but those look like drills. Aren't drills supposed to exaggerate a good thing and the real move is somewhere in between the drill and what the player is doing now?

[motteler621]

Ok, so I stay centered in my swing like Jack but I push into my right leg on the back swing or transfer the weight. People are saying "feel ain't real" and that's its probably 50/50 or 45/55 because my body is centered so the weight cant transfer. Well I decided to get out my scale and stand on big piece of wood under my left foot (so I was same height as scale) and the scale under my left foot (back foot). I weigh 150 pounds. At address the scale will read about 75 pounds so I would be 50/50 at address. During the back swing or going back the scale will jump all the way up to 130 before all going forward to my front foot. Going all the way up to 130 pounds would be 86.6% of my weight. So at one point on the back swing my weight or pressure is getting up to 86.6% of my total body weight on my back foot, so 14/86 during back swing all while staying centered.

Had a friend videotape it for me and here it is. Around 75 pounds is address, back swing is when the weight spikes up, downswing is when the weight goes way down. I think Jack did something similar, thats ok if you don't agree so dont get all wound up please. I take about 3 swings as you can see

[cbrian]

If you shift that much weight to the back foot you aren't staying centered.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by cbrian

If you shift that much weight to the back foot you aren't staying centered.

oh I have one of the most centered swings you will see. head and hips very stationary during backswing. Dont make me post a video of my swing, lol. Very enlightening, huh

[Stretch]

Here is a nice centered pivot, measured on a proper force plate (Swing Catalyst system). Roughly 80/20 right.

Has he "moved into his right side"? No. Has he "translated off the ball"? No. Has their been a "weight transfer"? Yes. The arm and club package forms a substantial portion of the total body mass. Swing them out behind you and physics takes over. Watch this:

Classic illustration: 80/20 (centered), 50/50 (centered), 20/80 (centered)

[uttexas]

I applaud your scale study. What you measured was a change in force/pressure. Put your foot on a scale and push down on it with your muscles, the scale's numbers will go up. By centered, I understand that to be mean mass centered. At the top of a good backswing, the good player will be pushing off the rear instep a lot, so yes, in a centered swing at the top of the backswing, the scale under the rear foot will read high numbers.

[motteler621]

here is a couple pictures of my swing from today, as you can see Im centered in my head, chest and hips. My head does turn slightly to help with my body turn, lots of good players did and do this too. This is same swing as on scale guys.

top of backswing

into downswing