bad course strategy.......it destroys so many rounds for high handicappers....

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

If the goal is to post your lowest score and one is very inconsistent with the diver (almost never on fairway, lots of OOB and penalties) it makes sense to leave it at home or in the bag.  The question is what level of consistency  warrants hitting driver if the goal is shooting the lowest score.

If I hit 7i off the tee on every hole I am making it almost impossible to shoot less than bogey / double bogey on every hole except Par 3's so you have to consider the risk reward of leaving the driver in the bag.  Also some people hit their driver better at the range than on the course and for those people gaining confidence with it on the course is a way to overcome the mental part of it.

I'm not trying to make a comment on whether or not you should hit driver or 7 iron. It doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter if you make the wrong choice.

My comment was aimed at people who have the attitude that their "working on their game" or "getting comfortable" out on the course, so they hit driver b/c they want to learn how to do it.  I think that's a pretty good way to stay a high handicapper forever.  Trying and focusing to hit the correct shot (not necessarily driver or any particular club) for every shot is a skill that must be practiced.  I'm making a point bigger than "driver or 7 iron?".

Quote:

The question is what level of consistency  warrants hitting driver if the goal is shooting the lowest score.

Exactly.  And this is something all players need to do on their own.  I was commenting on the few posters' whose answer to this question was "what the heck, I need to learn driver eventually, so I hit it on the course".  To me, that's silly and hurts your game in the long run.  Its not important if you get the right answer.  Its important to get used to asking the questions on a golf course, during a round.

Taking the attitude of "its not competitive anyways" every time you tee it up is a pretty good way to insure that when it *is* competitive (or you want to shoot low, for whatever reason) you get freaked out and choke.  You need to practice trying to shoot the lowest score possible.  Its very important to getting better IMO.

[mcanadiens]

To take it a step further ....

I don't hit my longer irons worth a darn either. So, if minimizing score is the be-all, end-all of every round, I shouldn't hit anything other than 5-wood and my short irons.

JohnClayton's point isn't entirely lost on me. I suppose it might be a good mental approach to take a competitive attitude with you on the course even if you are a long way from really being competitive. I suppose I'll be thinking about it, next time out.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I don't hit my longer irons worth a darn either. So, if minimizing score is the be-all, end-all of every round, I shouldn't hit anything other than 5-wood and my short irons.

JohnClayton's point isn't entirely lost on me. I suppose it might be a good mental approach to take a competitive attitude with you on the course even if you are a long way from really being competitive. I suppose I'll be thinking about it, next time out.

What worked for me as a high-capper was to have one round a week as my "real" round, where I did everything I could to shoot as low as I could.  For me, that was Saturday.  I usually got out there on Tues or Wend too, and worked on stuff, messed around, played skins, whatever.

But I think its important that you practice and work on shooting the best score you can.  Its really hard (impossible) to "turn it on" when you actually do care about scoring, be it in a week or a year.  It doesn't work that way.

If you think you'll shoot your best round with 5 wood and short irons only, you should have at least a round a week where you do just that.  And if it doesn't work, try something else.  But the main focus should be on shooting a score.

It was #10 on my list of things to improve to get from 100+ to the mid 80s:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/49746/post-mortem-130-to-88-in-6-months-what-worked-what-did-not

[iacas]

I've only skimmed these posts, so if I'm off-base in what I'm about to say, just let me know.

I've seen some posts saying "you can't work on your driver on the golf course" and things like that, and that's not entirely true. Yes, you can't really practice on the golf course. I agree with that.

But suppose there's a hole that's a hole with a big carry, or a pond on right, and you normally hit a bad shot there because it freaks you out. Or maybe there's a branch that hangs down in front of the tee that, even though it doesn't come into play, it psyches you out.

Surely you can practice THOSE kinds of things on the golf course, by hitting more drivers on those holes. The situations like those can't be re-created on the range.

[Spyder]

I've only skimmed these posts, so if I'm off-base in what I'm about to say, just let me know.

I've seen some posts saying "you can't work on your driver on the golf course" and things like that, and that's not entirely true. Yes, you can't really practice on the golf course. I agree with that.

But suppose there's a hole that's a hole with a big carry, or a pond on right, and you normally hit a bad shot there because it freaks you out. Or maybe there's a branch that hangs down in front of the tee that, even though it doesn't come into play, it psyches you out.

Surely you can practice THOSE kinds of things on the golf course, by hitting more drivers on those holes. The situations like those can't be re-created on the range.

This is what I agree with. Again, there's probably a lot of people that disagree with me and what I said and what you said here.

I do think it's constructive to address your "fear" or inconsistencies by using the driver more . I don't care if that is on the range, in your back yard in a hitting net, or on the course. As long as you're actually working to improve and practicing constructively with your driver, I think it will benefit you regardless of where you're hitting it. Using it more can only help if you're practicing the right way. You can't just say "using it 14 or 28 more times per week isn't helping!" because that's not entirely true if you're using it constructively and when appropriate.

Clearly, pulling the driver out just because and aimlessly hitting a shot isn't improving anything in the grand scheme of things. If you're working on understanding your flaws though, or working with an instructor who gave you something to work on, you can improve on the course and actually constructively practice on the course. Practice* isn't segregated to the range only. I think a lot of people think that it is though.

Practice*- Constructive practice. Not playing a round and calling it practice because it doesn't count.

[jsp9999]

What worked for me as a high-capper was to have one round a week as my "real" round, where I did everything I could to shoot as low as I could.  For me, that was Saturday.  I usually got out there on Tues or Wend too, and worked on stuff, messed around, played skins, whatever.

But I think its important that you practice and work on shooting the best score you can.  Its really hard (impossible) to "turn it on" when you actually do care about scoring, be it in a week or a year.  It doesn't work that way.

If you think you'll shoot your best round with 5 wood and short irons only, you should have at least a round a week where you do just that.  And if it doesn't work, try something else.  But the main focus should be on shooting a score.

It was #10 on my list of things to improve to get from 100+ to the mid 80s:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/49746/post-mortem-130-to-88-in-6-months-what-worked-what-did-not

Thanks for the old thread.  I read it and enjoyed thoroughly.  It somewhat reminds me of the journey I took since last year.  I'm still not good but I have a desire to improve.  Only thing missing for me is actual playing

I agree with a lot of what you said in old thread and this thread.

What I believe is high hc'ers should always pick the safest club, aka straight, within reasonable distance rather than most comfortable or farthest club.  Most comfortable or farthest is really false information for most high hc'ers because I know for a fact high hc'ers are never comfortable with any club regardless of length or shape.  What I mean is even though high hc'ers think they are good at this or that, but usually their swings are never consistent enough to translate such feeling into actual shot.  The same for farthest.  Even though high hc'ers think they can reach farthest with certain club, that doesn't necessarily translate into actual distance after taken into all directions, topping, fat divot, etc. This is similar to what you were saying about smooth distance.

I also agree 100% that high hc'ers should stop trying to cheat in his mind.  No more mulligans, double par ESC, movable lies, blatant omission of strokes, etc.  These rules are bad for someone who wants to improve. Before strategy, before swing path, before all the techniques, one should try to stick with the basic rule as much as possible to know where exactly problems happen.  I play with mostly high hc'ers so I know all those rules fuzzy up their scorecards.  I really don't care they want to improve or not but I also don't take their score as real.

[BuckeyeNut]

What if I told you that too many amateurs don't hit driver often enough, and that the smart play is sometimes to aim in the rough and hit the driver?

Longer shots to the green increase your scoring, and people are not much more accurate with a 3W than they are with their driver.

Agreed........The difficulty of the golf hole being played and the ability of the player dictates strategy.  What is best for a high Capper isn't best for all.

I can think of a few holes where I hit a low % of fairways only because I was able to play away from the bad trouble.   I don't aim for the rough, rather I aim to an extreme side of the fairway with an option to miss on the "good" side.   On the other hand, some holes require accuracy...like below..LOL

#3 at stone canyon:

This is a short easy birdie hole that plays from 285yds-381yds.  With one asterisk.....ya gotta hit the fairway!!!  LOL

I watch hackers attempt to drive this green on a weekly basis......all end up with a 6 or worse..LOL  They hit into the abyss, and I hit Rescue/wedge and give myself a good birdie look.

I also know a few holes when the only option is to MAN UP.....and bust 2 shots long and straight!!

#15 at Stone Canyon comes to mind!!

572-590yds Par5............this plays down a ribbon of fairway with a ravine bisecting the hole.   Laying back is no good on this hole.   Hi cappers can lay back, but there is no avoiding the trouble lurking between the tee and green.  Whether they attempt to cross the ravine in 2, 3, or 4 makes no difference.  LOL

Golf pictures, anyone?

[late347]

That's a looong par5 it looks like...

3x hybrid + 1 putt for birdie

think positive, think golf!

how long is forced carry over ravine btw? (if there's ravine?)

[GangGreen]

This is what I agree with. Again, there's probably a lot of people that disagree with me and what I said and what you said here.

I do think it's constructive to address your "fear" or inconsistencies by using the driver more. I don't care if that is on the range, in your back yard in a hitting net, or on the course. As long as you're actually working to improve and practicing constructively with your driver, I think it will benefit you regardless of where you're hitting it. Using it more can only help if you're practicing the right way. You can't just say "using it 14 or 28 more times per week isn't helping!" because that's not entirely true if you're using it constructively and when appropriate.

Clearly, pulling the driver out just because and aimlessly hitting a shot isn't improving anything in the grand scheme of things. If you're working on understanding your flaws though, or working with an instructor who gave you something to work on, you can improve on the course and actually constructively practice on the course. Practice* isn't segregated to the range only. I think a lot of people think that it is though.

Practice*- Constructive practice. Not playing a round and calling it practice because it doesn't count.

I've only skimmed these posts, so if I'm off-base in what I'm about to say, just let me know.

I've seen some posts saying "you can't work on your driver on the golf course" and things like that, and that's not entirely true. Yes, you can't really practice on the golf course. I agree with that.

But suppose there's a hole that's a hole with a big carry, or a pond on right, and you normally hit a bad shot there because it freaks you out. Or maybe there's a branch that hangs down in front of the tee that, even though it doesn't come into play, it psyches you out.

Surely you can practice THOSE kinds of things on the golf course, by hitting more drivers on those holes. The situations like those can't be re-created on the range.

Yep, agreed and hopefully folks weren't inferring from my earlier posts that I was saying that I expect to get better with my driver (or any club for matter) by solely using it more on the course.  I've been taking lessons every other week, and practice what I've been taught at least 3-4 times a week at the range.  I recognize my full swing fundamentals still have a long way to go, but having said that, what am I doing all this practicing for if not to use (or at least try) when the appropriate situation arises on the course.  It's not like I'm pulling out my driver and trying to drive the green on those short par 4s (I still believe you have to play within your limits as a high handicapper), but if I'm looking at a longer wide open hole then, yes, time to see how the stuff I've been working on translates on the course (and to learn from that too).

A non-driver example that applies similarly for me is my short game.  At my last lesson we spent a fair amount of time working on my chipping technique.  I've spent hours in the backyard working on the new technique and it's still a little foreign to me but when I get on the course that's the technique I'm going to stick with even if I'm a long way from being proficient in it.  How else am I going to know when it applies unless I use it in a real life situation.

Sorry for the rambling and not to discount the importance of strategy but personally I think most high handicappers like myself lose more strokes to poor full swing fundamentals than they do to poor strategy or improper club selection.  Sure, the courses are filled with yahoos who have no idea what they're doing out there but let's not lump all of us high handicappers into that category.  I'm guessing there are just as many of us out there who know what to do but aren't at that point were we can consistently execute that shot when the situation presents itself on the course.  For my part, when I have a chance on the course to hit that shot I've been practicing then I'm going for it more often than not (unless of course there's money on the line, then I turtle up and go with the high percentage shot...HAHAHA!)

[newtogolf]

I've only skimmed these posts, so if I'm off-base in what I'm about to say, just let me know.

I've seen some posts saying "you can't work on your driver on the golf course" and things like that, and that's not entirely true. Yes, you can't really practice on the golf course. I agree with that.

But suppose there's a hole that's a hole with a big carry, or a pond on right, and you normally hit a bad shot there because it freaks you out. Or maybe there's a branch that hangs down in front of the tee that, even though it doesn't come into play, it psyches you out.

Surely you can practice THOSE kinds of things on the golf course, by hitting more drivers on those holes. The situations like those can't be re-created on the range.

I agree, and that was the point of my post, you can't simulate on course situations easily at the range.  Most people go to the range and hit driver after driver.  Eventually they get into a groove and hit a few nice drives in a row but struggle with driver on the course because they don't get 5 swings to hit 1 good drive.

I am / was one of those guys and no matter how much I switched up clubs and tried to make my practice at the range simulate a real round I couldn't simulate the mental part.  When you're standing at the tee and there's water to the left, tree's to the right, you need to be confident enough to swing driver and put it in the fairway.  I tried everything I could to avoid driver during a round.  I tried hitting 3W, bought the 3Deep and older smaller head drivers.  They all worked great on the range and flew on average straighter than my driver but the problem was my semi-inconsistent swing and more so the added pressure I put on myself during tee shots because of the potential dangers off the fairways.

[BuckeyeNut]

That's a looong par5 it looks like...

3x hybrid + 1 putt for birdie

think positive, think golf!

how long is forced carry over ravine btw? (if there's ravine?)

It's not that difficult providing you hit a straight tee-shoot in the fairway.....I usually play driver 5-wood to the right fairway in 2....and then wedge on for a 3rd.   It's an easy hole providing you can hit two shots perfectly straight 470yds. (to allow for a little wiggle room)  440-450yds carry in 2 will get you across, but without an inch to spare and the fairway is 20yds wide at best.  Do that, and all that's left is a simple wedge to setup for a birdie opportunity.

Problems only arise when either the tee shot or layup are off target.........LOL   Laying up left after a bad tee shot makes the hole 5x more difficult.  Laying up left results in a 3rd shot in the 150-200yd range  leaving an intimidating approach.  The left fairway bends to the left and it's hard to get at which is why third shots are so long from the left.

[Fourputt]

I also know a few holes when the only option is to MAN UP.....and bust 2 shots long and straight!!

#15 at Stone Canyon comes to mind!!

572-590yds Par5............this plays down a ribbon of fairway with a ravine bisecting the hole.   Laying back is no good on this hole.   Hi cappers can lay back, but there is no avoiding the trouble lurking between the tee and green.  Whether they attempt to cross the ravine in 2, 3, or 4 makes no difference.  LOL

Golf pictures, anyone?

But you can still minimize the potential damage, even if it means that you play for bogey.  That gives you a chance to play a short iron or wedge to the green for your 4th stroke - much higher percentage shot..  It may not be the best way to make par, but it will avoid the 8's and 9's a lot more often.

This one is a par 3, about 180 yards slightly uphill and no bailout.  You are right that sometimes you just have to hit the shot.

[Spyder]

But you can still minimize the potential damage, even if it means that you play for bogey.  That gives you a chance to play a short iron or wedge to the green for your 4th stroke - much higher percentage shot..  It may not be the best way to make par, but it will avoid the 8's and 9's a lot more often. This one is a par 3, about 180 yards slightly uphill and no bailout.  You are right that sometimes you just have to hit the shot.   [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/86469/] [/URL]

Golf sandals! Noooo!

[BuckeyeNut]

I had a pair of FJ sandals 1 year in the very early 2000s............ they were comfortable to walk in, but they'd get really nasty and so would my feet!  it was a fun experiment, but I don't recommend them.  Especially if you play with morning dew!   These may be OK if you live in the desert and play mid-day............just an observation with personal experience!!

I once played the Magnolia course at WDW resort in street sandals because I didn't plan to play.  I didn't bring anything,, and couldn't resist the urge... LOL   Bare feet is a better option...IMO

I didn't bring anything......green fees for resort guests were around $80-90 at that time......by the time I bought a glove, a few balls, some tees...etc, etc.....I paid $209 for that round of golf.  I still think I shot a 79 from the 6600yd tees that day.  LOL

Now I bring my clubs no matter where ever I go on family vacation...............

[BuckeyeNut]

fourputt...I get your drift playing for bogey.  With that said, until you've played the 15th...this hole is hard to explain.   It's the ultimate nightmare for the High HC player..... no matter what the strategy, the result will be a huge FAIL.   Even if they chip their way towards the green, a daunting crossing is coming......and it's not a pretty sight for them.

I see it differently as a low HC player...If I survive the drive..I always challenge the ravine in 2...............then I can drop to either side if I fail........hit 4 on from the right side because I can drop to either side.............and hopefully make par or bogey at worse.

The High HC guys are fighting an uphill battle to be sure......because they are sometimes in the ravine 2-3 times before reaching the green.......... If they go left up the steep hill into the hay or trees, the problem is only compounded...

[Dave2512]

Suppose it depends on where you are at with your game. I'd rather be a little conservative with shot and club selection playing for par. Keeping stats can help with this. I know I make par 42% of the time so unless something comes out of nowhere, random really bsd shot etc, that's my goal. If I make a bogey it is still acceptable because I know it is coming at some point. But I also know my double or worse % is much less so the risk is usually worth it. For me the difference between a good day and bad day comes down to luck and how I manage the odd bad hole. For example I made a 7 on a par 3 a few days ago. All because I didn't think it through and it snowballed. Looking back I saw where I could have kept it to bogey.