Looking for someone that has suffered from taking the club too far inside and is now cured

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Stretch

On the plus side, one of the best ball strikers of the past few decades (and owner of probably the best performance to practice ratio of any golfer in history) was way inside on the backswing. Maybe we all make the perfect the enemy of the good?

Great video! My takeaway is very similar to Lietzke's. Perhaps I just need to work on looping the club less over the top!

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Stretch

-- Exaggerated counter-clockwise rotation of wrists at takeaway. "Turning off car key" with right hand or pointing back of left hand/flap of glove at ground/ball.

I didn't think this would work, but gave it a go at the range today and much to my surprise it worked better than the other two suggestions. I was able to clear the baskets on my toe line with ease, however I then struggled to know when to start rotating the club to the top to avoid having a bowed left wrist and a shut club face.

[jmm765psu]

I had an "ah ha!" moment just yesterday screwing around in front of the mirror that I thought I would share. It may or may not help you. First I'll tell my life story...

My issue has been a super inside take-away leading to a late wrist hinge, leading to a laid off club position, leading to a stuck behind me deal, leading to a changing of spine angle to keep myself from hitting it 3 feet fat, leading also to an early release, leading to a decrease in distance and inconsistent ball striking. Hooray for cascading errors. Even with this fault, I like you, play pretty good golf due to a solid short game (5 index) but need to be able to hit more greens from 160+ yds to take my game to the next level (you didn't say this... but I can feel your pain and know it to be true!).

I think the ingrained issue is that I've always been taught to "hinge your wrists late to get width," "bring the club back inside," and "keep your left arm connected" which I've done to an extreme amount for each. Attempting to fix this problem has had me either swinging outside or picking the club up more in trying to not come inside. The issue is that I've been so concentrated on the club head that I haven't been in tune with what is actually going on.

So, to the moment of clarity. Working in front of the mirror I noticed not only how far my club head was coming inside but how far my arms were coming inside. Arms inside + club inside = too much inside. It was painful to see how obvious it was. Now we know that we want to swing some inside because we love the beast-mode draw that we hit when we are on time. What I've been working on is making sure my HANDS go straight back BUT STAY LOW
(keep some downward pressure in the whole grip don't let the hands raise) and hinging the wrists (not lifting them) earlier so that the but of the club is pointing somewhere between the ball and my feet but is still able to get somewhat inside as it should .

I haven't had time to hit a lot of balls this way so the jury is out but so far it looks and feels better. I apologize if the description isn't great but this is what I would recommend. Take an iron and set up your stance with a mirror to your right (so you can see your club and arm planes) and rotate into the initial part of your swing getting your left arm parallel to the ground. If you can look back and see your left arm is pointing more directly into the mirror as opposed to back behind you, and the club is hinged setting upward as opposed to behind you, you'll be on the right track. The keys are to rotate (not lift) into your swing, keep the hands low and straight back, and hinge earlier than you think.

Again, I apologize if this was convoluted or not helpful, but this sensation I've found seems to be helping me and I know how it feels to be stuck in this rut!

Jared

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by jmm765psu

I had an "ah ha!" moment just yesterday screwing around in front of the mirror that I thought I would share. It may or may not help you. First I'll tell my life story...

Thanks for sharing Jared, I am willing to listen to anybody these days as I cannot stop myself whipping the club inside. You completely hit the nail on the head in your second paragraph, except I go from across the line at the top (if I lift my arms) or Matt Kuchar super flat (if I don't). I'm either OTT pulls or blocks right. My stats below for 45 rounds this year back up the issues you outline:

Scoring Average: 73.38

FIR: 53.2%

GIR: 55.4%

Putts per Round: 28.98

Scrambling: 51.5%

Your description is great and I can do this on my practice swing, I'm just incapable of doing it when I go to hit the ball. Give the exaggerated counter-clockwise suggestion above a go, I had some great success with that on the range yesterday and on the course today.

[parbreaker]

This may be something you've already tried, but I figured I would put this out there.

I go back and forth helping out my own swing instructor when he is working on his swing, and I have noticed something. When someone has been playing with something in their swing for so long, it can be almost impossible to break. One thing my instructor found helpful was when I would stand behind him and simply tell him exactly where his swing was after each shot. He could then try different feelings, adjustments, etc. and get immediate feedback as to what he was doing while hitting balls. Granted, it takes a pretty nice person to stand behind you for a couple of hours giving you a play by play of your swings, but if you have someone willing it may be an option. There's more continuity in it than trying something, walking back and looking at a video, repeat, etc...

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by parbreaker

This may be something you've already tried, but I figured I would put this out there.

I go back and forth helping out my own swing instructor when he is working on his swing, and I have noticed something. When someone has been playing with something in their swing for so long, it can be almost impossible to break. One thing my instructor found helpful was when I would stand behind him and simply tell him exactly where his swing was after each shot. He could then try different feelings, adjustments, etc. and get immediate feedback as to what he was doing while hitting balls. Granted, it takes a pretty nice person to stand behind you for a couple of hours giving you a play by play of your swings, but if you have someone willing it may be an option. There's more continuity in it than trying something, walking back and looking at a video, repeat, etc...

Thanks parbreaker, that's a good idea. Usually, I simply get the "you're taking it too far inside" comment when I'm playing with friends. Then I take a practice swing and they say, "yeah, that's better", but I can't repeat it over the ball. The hardest shot for me is when I have a tree just behind me. I take a number of practice swings missing the tree every time, only to hit it square on the moment I have to actually hit the ball. I've taken lessons with many instructors over the years and not one of them has been able to help me. I am 37 and beginning to think I'll never break this habit. I'm close to just trying to copy Lietzke for the rest of my life!

The other problem which you've hit on nicely, is getting that immediate feedback to what you are doing (whether right or wrong) and then being able to understand the new ball flight. I know enough about the swing to know that I need to work on my compensation for the inside takeaway too!

[carpediem4300]

I have a very inside takeaway, when i analyze my swing on an iphone app i draw the plane line through the club and out,....when playing in slow mo im a good 10 inches under the line on the takeaway and backswing, but i always generally end up back on the plane at the top, and then drag my hands down the line back to impact position, i draw all my clubs except the driver which i push/push slice

video your swing and analyze it, will really help you figure out your game,...just because you come really inside doesnt mean its all my, my angle of attack is STEEP, and on TARGET....my divots attest to this

now if only i could through a decent round together :P

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by jmm765psu

I had an "ah ha!" moment just yesterday screwing around in front of the mirror that I thought I would share. It may or may not help you. First I'll tell my life story...

My issue has been a super inside take-away leading to a late wrist hinge, leading to a laid off club position, leading to a stuck behind me deal, leading to a changing of spine angle to keep myself from hitting it 3 feet fat, leading also to an early release, leading to a decrease in distance and inconsistent ball striking. Hooray for cascading errors. Even with this fault, I like you, play pretty good golf due to a solid short game (5 index) but need to be able to hit more greens from 160+ yds to take my game to the next level (you didn't say this... but I can feel your pain and know it to be true!).

I think the ingrained issue is that I've always been taught to "hinge your wrists late to get width," "bring the club back inside," and "keep your left arm connected" which I've done to an extreme amount for each. Attempting to fix this problem has had me either swinging outside or picking the club up more in trying to not come inside. The issue is that I've been so concentrated on the club head that I haven't been in tune with what is actually going on.

So, to the moment of clarity. Working in front of the mirror I noticed not only how far my club head was coming inside but how far my arms were coming inside. Arms inside + club inside = too much inside. It was painful to see how obvious it was. Now we know that we want to swing some inside because we love the beast-mode draw that we hit when we are on time. What I've been working on is making sure my HANDS go straight back BUT STAY LOW

(keep some downward pressure in the whole grip don't let the hands raise) and hinging the wrists (not lifting them) earlier so that the but of the club is pointing somewhere between the ball and my feet but is still able to get somewhat inside as it should .

I haven't had time to hit a lot of balls this way so the jury is out but so far it looks and feels better. I apologize if the description isn't great but this is what I would recommend. Take an iron and set up your stance with a mirror to your right (so you can see your club and arm planes) and rotate into the initial part of your swing getting your left arm parallel to the ground. If you can look back and see your left arm is pointing more directly into the mirror as opposed to back behind you, and the club is hinged setting upward as opposed to behind you, you'll be on the right track. The keys are to rotate (not lift) into your swing, keep the hands low and straight back, and hinge earlier than you think.

Again, I apologize if this was convoluted or not helpful, but this sensation I've found seems to be helping me and I know how it feels to be stuck in this rut!

Jared

Welcome. Great first post. Please stick around.

Your fault chain on the way back is very sadly familiar to me! I lose a lot of power because I don't get a full wrist hinge at the top and have wasted much time pondering chicken/egg questions like: Do I come inside because I don't hinge enough, or do I not hinge enough because I come inside? Or both?

Golf sucks.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Welcome. Great first post. Please stick around.

Your fault chain on the way back is very sadly familiar to me! I lose a lot of power because I don't get a full wrist hinge at the top and have wasted much time pondering chicken/egg questions like: Do I come inside because I don't hinge enough, or do I not hinge enough because I come inside? Or both?

Golf sucks.

I've really opened up a can of worms here, haven't I?! The worrying thing is that no one has come forward saying they've cured themselves of this affliction...

By the way, over the years I've had many lessons from different instructors and ALL of them have immediately started trying to correct the inside takeaway first explaining the catastrophic chain of events it creates (mentioned by jmm/Stretch above). Not one instructor has said, "takeaway's inside but you're in a great position at the top - let's work on the down swing". Also, more than one of them has mentioned that the inside takeaway is not only a hands problem but also a torso problem. They've recommended turning my belly button to the right as I take the club back so as to ensure a one-piece takeaway. If the torso fails to turn to initiate the takeaway, the hands take over bombing to the inside (low handicappers) or picking the club straight up (high handicappers).

Now, I tried this and had some great success at first even shooting a 62 (-10) about two months after the first lesson hitting nearly every fairway and all 18 greens. No kidding! The great turn helped me hit more from the inside and I was hitting quite a powerful baby draw. However, by initiating my takeaway by turning my belly button to the right made me feel as if I was bringing the club even more inside and I was extremely conscious of this during the swing. I never felt comfortable and gradually started looking for more of an 'upward' movement to my backswing.

Perhaps this idea might work for one of you guys, I don't know.

[carpediem4300]

your shooting -10 and your worried about an inside swing path?

why is it your wanting to change this? distances/power/control/accuracy?

Ive spent years trying to change mine, but once i analyzed the video and realised the top of my backswing was fine, and my downswing was fine,...im moving onto other areas like consistency

i went to the range last night to sort out my driver as i slice it badly,.............to warm up i hit wedges and an 8i, not one bad shot from 40 warm up balls

perhaps the pro's are getting to obsessed with your backswing? if your fine at the top and your downswing is nearly there what the heck does it matter if you do a 360 flip during your backswing? the ball only remembers the angle and loft of the club at impact,....not at 3/4 backswing, or at takeaway...............

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

your shooting -10 and your worried about an inside swing path?

why is it your wanting to change this? distances/power/control/accuracy?

Ive spent years trying to change mine, but once i analyzed the video and realised the top of my backswing was fine, and my downswing was fine,...im moving onto other areas like consistency

i went to the range last night to sort out my driver as i slice it badly,.............to warm up i hit wedges and an 8i, not one bad shot from 40 warm up balls

perhaps the pro's are getting to obsessed with your backswing? if your fine at the top and your downswing is nearly there what the heck does it matter if you do a 360 flip during your backswing? the ball only remembers the angle and loft of the club at impact,....not at 3/4 backswing, or at takeaway...............

The -10 was a one off. I need consistent ball striking in order to gain control, I don't need distance although more will come if I improve this aspect of my swing. I am NOT fine at the top and the downswing is either under the plane or over the plane. I am the first to admit I wouldn't care about the inside takeaway if I could hit the ball consistently well.

[carpediem4300]

okay fair enough, clears something up i guess.

as a 24 capper i was quite shocked at how consistent i come down on plane, which coupled with a few minor changes in my posture/weight distribution has lead to consistent contact.

a drill i am doing with my driver at the moment is trying to "trace a line" back from the ball, to cure my slice.

I simply imagine a straight line through the ball and about 10 inches further back from the ball, (basically the target line extended backwards), and trace this with the club, not sure how it went but ball went straighter, obviously 1 change wont cure my slice, i need to work on other things, but thats how ive tried to straighten up that aspect of my game, the rest of it can stay shallow because it works

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

However, by initiating my takeaway by turning my belly button to the right made me feel as if I was bringing the club even more inside and I was extremely conscious of this during the swing. I never felt comfortable and gradually started looking for more of an 'upward' movement to my backswing.

Feel ain't real. I suggest you try some different feelings - exaggerate them even - and film them all. See which feeling works best and go with that.

You should have filmed your takeaway back then. Right now I have a combination feeling of turning early (gets my hands going in just fine, and the clubhead stays out if my hands go in enough) and then lifting, which I happen to accomplish by folding the right elbow, as one should.

Prior to that Jim Furyk's swing provided some good visuals. That got me closer to the point where I can think "turn and lift" (even though I don't lift above a one-plane swing, I'm no longer really too far below it by just taking the hands IN).

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Feel ain't real. I suggest you try some different feelings - exaggerate them even - and film them all. See which feeling works best and go with that.

You should have filmed your takeaway back then. Right now I have a combination feeling of turning early (gets my hands going in just fine, and the clubhead stays out if my hands go in enough) and then lifting, which I happen to accomplish by folding the right elbow, as one should.

Prior to that Jim Furyk's swing provided some good visuals. That got me closer to the point where I can think "turn and lift" (even though I don't lift above a one-plane swing, I'm no longer really too far below it by just taking the hands IN).

You're right Erik. I should have filmed my swing to see what I was doing. It was back in 2008 before I turned pro and really got into teaching and the golf swing. During a round, I think one of my said one day, "wow, you are really taking it inside!" and that was the end of that swing! I need to hit the range with a video camera and hit balls until I like what I see. Right now, I am simply looking for a piece of hay in an incredibly large stack of needles, as Blackadder would say.

So, you start you swing moving your hands IN keeping the club face pointing at the ball. When exactly do you start to lift? And by lifting you simply fold your right elbow? Do you have a feeling you rotate the club face open to take it to the top? When I don't roll my hands to start the club face and continue pointing it at the ball for as long as possible I end up with a very bowed left wrist and a closed club face at the top. a It feel

[CuppedTin]

Watch close the swings he makes at :19 seconds. He along with many other PGA Tour Pro's do this before every shot. As Erik said, feel isn't real...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

So, you start you swing moving your hands IN keeping the club face pointing at the ball. When exactly do you start to lift? And by lifting you simply fold your right elbow? Do you have a feeling you rotate the club face open to take it to the top? When I don't roll my hands to start the club face and continue pointing it at the ball for as long as possible I end up with a very bowed left wrist and a closed club face at the top.

I used to:

• roll #3 quite a bit on the backswing
• from there I'd be so intent on gaining depth that I'd take my hands IN to an extreme - they'd be lower than Matt Kuchar
• because the shaft was flat it'd steepen in transition and I'd fight coming very slightly over it - just a few degrees

So now I:

• TURN only in the early part of the backswing. Try it in a mirror - do nothing with your arms and just turn. Your hands go in plenty.
• Softly fold the right elbow. It feels like it bends about 45 degrees only.
• I cock the club up a little bit while turning. I say "turn only" but when I've really got that down I'll add a little "steep to shallow" feeling. I want the shaft to go steep to shallow - what feels like steep to shallow, anyway, since it's really just kind of on plane most of the time.

So that's it. It works for me, no guarantees for you.

Cupped, I think he's well aware that feel isn't real, and that video has next to nothing to do with the topic.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by iacas

Cupped, I think he's well aware that feel isn't real, and that video has next to nothing to do with the topic.

Of course it doesn't Erik, but to someone who feels they take the club to far inside it is a great practice swing... But hey man, I understand this is your place to shine...

Just because it's not some logic or swing that you are paid to preach doesn't mean it won't work for someone else.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Of course it doesn't Erik, but to someone who feels they take the club to far inside it is a great practice swing... But hey man, I understand this is your place to shine...

Just because it's not some logic or swing that you are paid to preach doesn't mean it won't work for someone else.

What you've obviously failed to grasp is that that move is a downswing/follow-through move. It's "swinging left" or an exaggerated "CP" release. It is not a drill to help The_Pharaoh, who's talking about his backswing, not a feeling that works for some pros on their downswing and follow-through .

Your insulting comments and name-calling were removed from your post above. I give people a lot of latitude to discuss a lot of topics but you crossed the line with your rude post. When you give a follow-through piece to someone asking about the backswing, what, I'm to ignore it? No. An appropriate response would have been to either explain yourself or ask why I didn't think it had to do with the topic.

I own a discussion forum and expect discussion. I welcome it. I welcome challenges, because it makes me think and defend my positions and, occasionally, to change my mind. But you are simply interested in calling people names and pouting, apparently, while trying to teach despite not being able to break 80 with a "Tour caliber" short game.