The Apex of the Putt

[saevel25]

Unfortunately, it's hard to accept the proof through my computer screen. You may very well be right. but it goes against everything I believe I've seen for many years. It also goes against countless articles I've read. Your position is the only one I've read about grain not affect the direction of putts.

From one article...

http://moderngolfthoughts.worldsecuresystems.com/golf_sage_blog/check-break-and-grain-in-3-radius-around-hole

Yet that article never specifies how much the grain influences the break alone and not the speed. It just specifies the same generalization. It proves nothing except a guys opinions that are not backed up by fact.

Here are some examples:  If your putt is uphill and against the grain, you need to stroke it very hard.  If your putt is downhill and with the grain, you need to stroke it very softly.  If your putt is uphill and with the grain or downhill and against the grain, stroke the ball like a level putt.  If your putt breaks left-to-right and the grain is growing left-to-right, play twice as much break as you read.  If your putt breaks left-to-right and the grain is growing right-to-left, play the putt straight at the hole.

In this instance, how long is the putt and how much break? By that tip the guy is saying for any length putt, at any break the putt is straight if the grain is against the way your putt breaks.

I think common sense wins out on this one. Tips like that are just bad for golfers.

[billchao]

[QUOTE]If your putt is uphill and with the grain or downhill and against the grain, stroke the ball like a level putt.[/QUOTE]This goes against everything I understand about agronomy. Grass doesn't grow that way. It's not going to turn itself backside up and it can't twist itself so the upper side faces the opposite direction it grows in.

[iacas]

Unfortunately, it's hard to accept the proof through my computer screen. You may very well be right. but it goes against everything I believe I've seen for many years. It also goes against countless articles I've read. Your position is the only one I've read about grain not affect the direction of putts.

It's not "my position." It's the position of someone who has an incredibly vested interest in getting this sort of thing right. Mark Sweeney doesn't even teach the putting stroke. He literally ONLY teaches green reading.

I'm a smart enough guy to ask good questions, understand when something is authentic, and apply it to my students. I'm also a smart enough guy to do some tests on my own, and I could easily show you these results live and in person sometime. My tests back up what Mark's been saying for years now: I can read the numbers from an AimPoint chart and adjust for speed alone and the reads are dead accurate.

Any article you can cite is likely older (grain likely had a greater impact in the 1960s or whenever with green speeds of 4, 5, 6…) or just written by some general instructor, etc. who has not singularly devoted his career and life to green reading as Mark has done.

This goes against everything I understand about agronomy. Grass doesn't grow that way. It's not going to turn itself backside up and it can't twist itself so the upper side faces the opposite direction it grows in.

Yeah… 99%+ of grain grows downhill.

[Ernest Jones]

I came across this quote and thought I'd add it to the discussion.

Quote:

Contrary to some of the oldest axioms in golf, grain does not significantly affect the amount a putt will break, nor will a putt reliably break towards water. These are just old wife's tales from the past and should be disregarded when reading any given putt.

[vangator]

OK. I accept that all the articles on the internet are full of sh!t. I'm bringing a level to the course next time.

[boogielicious]

OK. I accept that all the articles on the internet are full of sh!t. I'm bringing a level to the course next time.

You will not regret it my friend.  You will see that many greens are set up with optical illusions too.  They make it look like the break should be one way but is really another.  That's why are feet are great judges of where the real slope is coming from.

[vangator]

I've read and looked at a lot of the Aimpoint stuff. There's a lot left out since they want you to take the course. That's understandable. I guess I don't have very good feet. I can't tell if I'm standing uphill, downhill or flat unless it is a lot. Then I don't need my feet because I'm using my putter as a cane. I've been thinking about the grain and break (or lack thereof) discussion above. I played a course a couple of weeks ago with very fast greens. Don't know the stimp, but some downhill putts only needed to be touched and they kept rolling and rolling. My guess would be in the 12 range. I putted exceptionally well that day. It was a scramble and I was putting last so I had an idea of the line. I made 7 snakes in the 20+ range. Never did that before. These were Florida greens so they had grain, but the cut was so tight, the grain had little to no effect. That's what the pros play on and obviously what the discussion by the others was dealing with. Not that I doubted you, of course.. :-) However, I normally don't play on greens anywhere near double digits stimp speeds. My guess would be a 6. I'm going to ask this weekend at the proshop. With greens this slow, believe me, grain will affect your putts. I'm also going to get a small level and check the direction of the grain with respect to the slope. I know I've putted on greens where the grains "appears" to be growing uphill. Maybe an optical illusion. Maybe it was the setting sun because I play mostly at twilight. The greens are their shaggiest then too. I feel a science project coming on. :-)

[Ernest Jones]

I've read and looked at a lot of the Aimpoint stuff. There's a lot left out since they want you to take the course. That's understandable. I guess I don't have very good feet. I can't tell if I'm standing uphill, downhill or flat unless it is a lot. Then I don't need my feet because I'm using my putter as a cane.

I've been thinking about the grain and break (or lack thereof) discussion above. I played a course a couple of weeks ago with very fast greens. Don't know the stimp, but some downhill putts only needed to be touched and they kept rolling and rolling. My guess would be in the 12 range. I putted exceptionally well that day. It was a scramble and I was putting last so I had an idea of the line. I made 7 snakes in the 20+ range. Never did that before. These were Florida greens so they had grain, but the cut was so tight, the grain had little to no effect. That's what the pros play on and obviously what the discussion by the others was dealing with. Not that I doubted you, of course..

However, I normally don't play on greens anywhere near double digits stimp speeds. My guess would be a 6. I'm going to ask this weekend at the proshop. With greens this slow, believe me, grain will affect your putts. I'm also going to get a small level and check the direction of the grain with respect to the slope. I know I've putted on greens where the grains "appears" to be growing uphill. Maybe an optical illusion. Maybe it was the setting sun because I play mostly at twilight. The greens are their shaggiest then too.

I feel a science project coming on.

6 is awfully slow.

[iacas]

I've read and looked at a lot of the Aimpoint stuff. There's a lot left out since they want you to take the course. That's understandable. I guess I don't have very good feet. I can't tell if I'm standing uphill, downhill or flat unless it is a lot. Then I don't need my feet because I'm using my putter as a cane.

I bet that your senses are not nearly as bad as you think.

However, I normally don't play on greens anywhere near double digits stimp speeds. My guess would be a 6. I'm going to ask this weekend at the proshop. With greens this slow, believe me, grain will affect your putts. I'm also going to get a small level and check the direction of the grain with respect to the slope. I know I've putted on greens where the grains "appears" to be growing uphill. Maybe an optical illusion. Maybe it was the setting sun because I play mostly at twilight. The greens are their shaggiest then too.

Six?

I'm not interested in any experiments on a green with a stimp of 6. I think you could build a green out of cotton candy and get it higher than a 6… :P

8 is pretty much a minimum these days.

[mvmac]

I've read and looked at a lot of the Aimpoint stuff. There's a lot left out since they want you to take the course. That's understandable. I guess I don't have very good feet. I can't tell if I'm standing uphill, downhill or flat unless it is a lot. Then I don't need my feet because I'm using my putter as a cane.

Agree with Erik, it's probably not as bad as you think it is. Get the level out, you'll be able to feel the difference.

[vangator]

One of the things that frustrates me the most is having a 3 foot putt that I read as just outside right and it breaks to the right and I miss the cup by 3 inches on a putt I rolled right where I wanted to. :-( Last week, I hit the first 5 greens and my birdie putts ranged from 6 feet to 15 feet. 5 pars and a bogey. I hit 8 GIR and one on the fringe on the front and shot 39. That's 9 putts for birdie resulting in 6 pars and 3 bogeys. I'm surprised my putter made it through that round in one piece.

[Ernest Jones]

One of the things that frustrates me the most is having a 3 foot putt that I read as just outside right and it breaks to the right and I miss the cup by 3 inches on a putt I rolled right where I wanted to.

AimPoint will fix that immediately, like in 5 minutes of practice, I shit you not. BAM, magic, fixed. No more falling prey to optical trickery. I don't make everything and I misread some putts (don't always hit the right line either) but one thing is for certain, my ball never breaks away from the hole .

Seriously, get thee to an AimPoint class, you won't regret it. I promise. Dollar for dollar, the best money you'll ever spend on putting.

[saevel25]

Agreed, I would say that 99% of the time I do not misread the break on a putt. I might miss read a double breaking putt once in a blue moon.

Aimpoint will transform your green reading.

[billchao]

One of the things that frustrates me the most is having a 3 foot putt that I read as just outside right and it breaks to the right and I miss the cup by 3 inches on a putt I rolled right where I wanted to. :-(

I agree with the other guys. Definitely take an AimPoint class. I may misread or underplay the amount of break at times, but I rarely miss read the direction. You're never going to make the putt if you misread the direction.

[dchoye]

Bump this thread up after reading through as I been having difficulty with left to right breaks and always missing on the low side. Turns out I started the ball directly at the apex rather than the starting line. I realized this after taking aimpoint classes and what felt odd aiming a bit higher than I thought I need was confirmed by my feet .

Here's example what I mean.

 

[dchoye]

So I was either standing behind the ball or crouching down behind the ball and I could see the starting line from ball to apex to hole  clearly most putts 

however for what ever reason tricky right to left breakers I would start crotch behind the hole and then I could see a line from the hole to apex to ball and starting line better if I start my routine from behind the hole and walk to the ball.