Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame

[shanksalot]

This is my take on it, but I preface it with I am an old school baseball fan. Pete Rose was one the great players in the game. He was someone you could point out to the kids in the neighborhood how the game should be played. He was Charlie Hustle and hustle he did. When he got a walk he would not walk to first base he would run. He played the game with abandon and always played hard. When he was in the All Star game one year he came into home plate and hit Ray Fosse so hard he basically ruined Fosse for the rest of his career. This was the All Star game not the World Series and yet he still played to win. I loved how he played the game.

 Perhaps that is why I am so hard on him now. What he did  to the game by betting on it was sacrilegious in baseball. If he bet on baseball while a manager he most likely did as a player as well. When they delved into his betting as a manager they also indicated they were sure he did as a player as well, but they had so much on him already they did not delve into it any further. Regardless betting on the game is no different than what the Black Sox scandal was when they took money to throw the series in 1919. Rose called other managers to get the skinny on players who were hurt to see if he could get an advantage in his bets that day. While what Pete did on the field should be in the HOF he should not be there. Yet if players like Bonds et al can get in, and I think they will some day, then Pete should get in as well. But then that is a thread for another day. When and if he ever does go in it should be after he passes not while he is still alive. I feel he has lost his right to be inducted now, only posthumously.

Edited June 22, 2017 by shanksalot

[flopster]

I have responded on this topic before pointing out his responsibility as manager of the Reds and how he abused his authority by his addiction, I think it's worth noting probably what type of a person he probably is by bringing up what he did to Ray Fosse in a meaningless all star game, im completely aware of the fact of it being different era and of course players made quite a bit less but still there's no excuse for doing something like that to a defenselss player.

[amishboy51]

The HOF is a private corporation, separate and apart from MLB. Therefore, Rose is ineligible only because the HOF chose to amend their eligibility criteria.

Personally, I think Rose was a great player, who fully deserves to be in the Hall, but at the same time he’s a jerk who violated basic and essential MLB rules, so I have no problem with him being permanently banned from MLB.

[Elmer]

On 3/19/2017 at 2:59 PM, mistermuhl said:

Barry Bonds is unquestionably one of the top 5 hitters to ever play. He is arguably the best. Steroids do absolutely nothing to your hand eye coordination. He was intentionally walked with the bases loaded. That's screams GOAT. 

Pete Rose deserves to be in the hall. He is one of the best ever. He broke a rule, sure. But he was the best. And honestly, I don't care if someone cheats, it's fun to watch guys like him play. 

Going to have to respectfully disagree,
Bonds was a good hitter but not the best. While he ranks #1 in HR, he is 236th in batting average (.298), compare that to Cobb #1 (.366).
Bonds is 54th in Strike outs (1539 SO, during 22 yrs) compared to Cobb who ranks 709 (680 SO during 24 yrs)
Hits- Bonds #37 (2935), Rose #1 (4256, 24yrs) Cobb #2 (4189, 24yrs)
Bond hit a lot of HR's, but struck out alot.
Atleast Rose and Cobb hit for average, high average in Cobb's case. 
To debunk "the best" compare to Ted Williams. in 19 years Williams had
             521 HR, .344 BA , 709 Strike outs.
Bonds- 762 HR, .298 BA, 1539 SO
And TED Williams lost 3 years because he was serving in the Military during WWII!
So there is no way Bonds is "the best".

Secondly, you are correct Steroids to not help hand eye coordination, they help recovery. So when Bonds was using (which the unnatural growth of his head confirms) he would be fresh every game day, while non users lag and drag.

Third, Peter Rose was his own worst enemy. If when it all came out, he admitted to his gambling. If he admitted he had an addiction and showed some remorse, I think things would have ended differently.
Instead he denied his gambling for 20 years even when the evidence against him was spot on. He only admitted to gambling when it financially benefited him, in selling his book!

Lastly this statement, on a golf forum, from a golfer, baffles me: " He broke a rule, sure. But he was the best. And honestly, I don't care if someone cheats, it's fun to watch guys like him play."
Because if a golfer in your 4some or your league was openly cheating, and taking your money I think your opinion would be different.
If Tiger or Rory was openly cheating on tour, this forum would be filled with posts decrying such behavior! 

[Groucho Valentine]

Bonds was a no doubt first ballot HOF'er before he hit 73 HR's. He should be in. To piggy back on elmers quote above, i played baseball through college and nearly everyone in baseball was using greenies (athempetines) back then. Even on my level in college. I used too every now and then. I think it some cases we just have to come to grips with the era and evaluate subjectively. Theres no reason for Bonds not be in the HOF. 

[Elmer]

On 2/1/2018 at 11:20 AM, Groucho Valentine said:

Bonds was a no doubt first ballot HOF'er before he hit 73 HR's. He should be in. To piggy back on elmers quote above, i played baseball through college and nearly everyone in baseball was using greenies (athempetines) back then. Even on my level in college. I used too every now and then. I think it some cases we just have to come to grips with the era and evaluate subjectively. Theres no reason for Bonds not be in the HOF. 

While I disagree with putting Bonds et al. in the Hall.

If Bonds gets in I think so should Clemens!
I never thought Sosa or McGuire were HOF worthy players!
But still no Pete Rose!!!!!

[jamo]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 11:20 AM, Groucho Valentine said:

Bonds was a no doubt first ballot HOF'er before he hit 73 HR's. He should be in. To piggy back on elmers quote above, i played baseball through college and nearly everyone in baseball was using greenies (athempetines) back then. Even on my level in college. I used too every now and then. I think it some cases we just have to come to grips with the era and evaluate subjectively. Theres no reason for Bonds not be in the HOF. 

Willie Mays has admitted to taking amphetamines. Mickey Mantle and Hank Aaron too. Schedule II controlled substance, and banned by MLB. Few people, if any, have every argued for kicking them out of the Hall, despite their illegality.

[Groucho Valentine]

On February 16, 2018 at 10:52 AM, Elmer said:

While I disagree with putting Bonds et al. in the Hall.

If Bonds gets in I think so should Clemens!
I never thought Sosa or McGuire were HOF worthy players!
But still no Pete Rose!!!!!

Theres room for bonds in the HOF just because he was one of best 5 players in the history of the game before he roided up. He was simply a great player and the likely fact he used PED's later in his career is an unfortunate side note. Bonds, Clemens and Sosa i wouldn't care if they ever got in or not. They're just pure numbers guys. 

I think Rose will get in, one day. But not while he's alive. 

[Elmer]

On 2/20/2018 at 8:40 AM, Groucho Valentine said:

 

I think Rose will get in, one day. But not while he's alive. 

I would bet that Rose gets in the Hall the day after he is buried!

[Groucho Valentine]

6 hours ago, Elmer said:

I would bet that Rose gets in the Hall the day after he is buried!

Id be rose like to pop out of the casket wearing a leisure suit and say "gotcha bitch! Ill visit my bust tomorrow" '

This would be a great moment in human history were it to happen. 

 

[billchao]

I say let them all in if their on field achievements warrant consideration. The HoF is not the shining bastion of integrity that people make it out to be.

[Elmer]

On 2/21/2018 at 6:58 PM, billchao said:

I say let them all in if their on field achievements warrant consideration. The HoF is not the shining bastion of integrity that people make it out to be.

I am sure that is true of all sports and sports legends!

[onthehunt526]

I think technically Pete is only ineligible from being employed with anything that has to do with Major League Baseball.

I don't believe being permanently ineligible bans you from Cooperstown.

That being said, Pete has been banned for almost 30 years now. Either A) Rob Manfred needs to at least let him back in to teach others the penalties of his wrongdoings. B) The writers should just vote him into the Hall of Fame anyway. Yes, it would take a lot to make this happen, more than me writing some post in some forum about it... some Veterans committee has to vote to put him on the ballot, he has to get enough votes, etc. Bud Selig is still pulling some strings of Rob Manfred.

If I was commissioner, I would reinstate Pete Rose as soon as I could. Not right away, because  I wouldn't want to make it obvious. I'd set up a meeting with Pete first, make it all look good... have a press conference. Then I would send him, all over the U.S. to speak to high school and college sports teams, on why gambling on sports ruined his life, how to avoid the traps, and to stay the course...

The funny thing with Pete is he played his last game in I want to say, 1986. He only needed to get through the 1991 season to be eligible in 1992. (Kind of like Jeter in 2020). I think there should be some rewriting of the "permanently ineligible" rule... Put some sort of statute of limitations on how long "permanently ineligible" means... It wouldn't have to be a "short period" of time either.... You could say 50 years or whatever or "natural life" which actually is what it should read... all other sports can only ban for "natural life". (It's in the CBA for all sports) Including the NFL, NBA and NHL... their banishment for life is just that "Natural Life".

A lifetime ban should be just that "natural life" nothing more, nothing less. If this rule change eventually gets Pete, the Black Sox and whomever else has been permanently ineligible into Cooperstown, so be it.

[iacas]

@onthehunt526, I think the baseball hall of fame is a completely separate entity, but they've honored the lifetime bans handed out by MLB. Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose, for example.

Shoeless Joe should be in the HOF too. And yet…

Quote

In 2015, Major League Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred reviewed Joe Jackson's case and denied his bid for reinstatement.

Ugh.

[onthehunt526]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

@onthehunt526, I think the baseball hall of fame is a completely separate entity, but they've honored the lifetime bans handed out by MLB. Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose, for example.

Shoeless Joe should be in the HOF too. And yet…

Ugh.

They are a separate entity. Shoeless Joe has been gone for years. If my "natural life" rule comes to pass, Shoeless Joe would automatically reinstated. No grandfather clause in the rule. So when Pete passes, he'd be reinstated, and others. Like I said the other three major sports, a "lifetime ban" is just that natural life. It would only take a 23-7 vote from the owners to pass it... And it probably would.

[sheepdog]

Maybe there should be a special section for a**holes and steroid users. I don't think there was ever a bigger a**hole than Ty Cobb but Bonds comes close, read about his college career. Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemons, Pete, Palmero, and A Rod could then be in the hall.

Bonds the greatest hitter, what a joke. As far as the greatest hitter no one with the possible exception of Lou Gehrig or Ted Williams, touches Babe Ruth. He had a lifetime average of 3.42, only 2 points less than Williams, with 714 HRs and only 8399 at bats. Think what his batting numbers would have been if he had been a full time outfielder. Give Ruth another 1448 at bats, which Bonds has more than Ruth and which is roughly 3 years worth and only a paltry by Ruth standards, 25 HRs a year, and he's the HR leader. On top of that Ruth started his career as a great pitcher with a lifetime e.r.a. of 2.28, 94 wins and only 46 losses. Only Walter Johnson rivaled Ruth in the years Ruth was a pitcher.

 

 

[Piz]

A lifetime ban expires when you do.  So the penalty is you don't get to give a speech.

[billchao]

21 minutes ago, Piz said:

A lifetime ban expires when you do.  So the penalty is you don't get to give a speech.

It's not really a lifetime ban as much as it is about being on the MLB permanently ineligible list. Only the commissioner of baseball has the power to reinstate anyone on the list.

Shoeless Joe has been on it for 98 years and counting.

Pete Rose voluntarily accepted being added to the list as part of his settlement. If he's not reinstated, the HoF won't be electing him after he dies.