Webb Simpson - does he have a mind of his own?

[Harmonious]

I am sorry to hear that Shorty wasn't going to post on this thread anymore.  I was going to ask him which Christian he was rooting for in the McGladry playoff.

[the19thhole]

Originally Posted by Shorty

For example - miracles, people rising from the dead, etc. I challenge anyone on this forum to actually come out and say they belive in the resurection and that God exists.How can one possibly take seriously the idea that an adult in this century would believe these things.

I thought this thread was a waste of time as soon as you posted and would serve no purpose. Pretty much like all your other posts (at least they are about golf) you state your opininion and we all have to agree or we are the ones who are wrong.

But you have called into question my way of life and how I choose to live it. I don't like to be called stupid for my beleif in my God. So I take up your pathetic challenge. I believe in Jesus Christ, in his dying on the cross and in his resurrection.  Whether or not you choose to believe in his deity is up to you, but don't ridicule others for what they believe. Historical fact Jesus Christ existed that is not open for debate. Even the athiest "God" Richard Dawkins will not challenge this.  You should do your research on these matters before you spout crap. I was brought up catholic and questioned all the teachings saying it was just a made up story and lost my faith, but something made me come back to it. I did my research. If the history was wrong Christianity would have finished out as soon as Christ died not get stronger. Before you jump in with your science means there is no God arguement or that I am not intelligent, I am actually a degree educated scientist and my scientific knowledge and belief in God exist in perfect harmony. No conflict. Also if you do your research you'll actually find that most eminent scientists over the years have believed in God. Even Darwin, who only questioned his faith because of the death of his daughter not his theory of evolution as all athiest like to believe.

You should count yourself lucky that there is a God because if this was all just random and we are now just a process of natural selection you would have died out long ago because your existance serves no purpose to our on going evolution. In most of your posts you come across as spiteful and egotistical and that you know more about golf than most. Always putting people down for what they say and up until now I let it go because I gave you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you did know more. You should learn some humility before quickly jump in with your replies to people. I find you sad and pathetic that you would have a go at Simpson for his faith because it doesn't fit with your worldy view.

And to all others who read this sorry for the rant, but I will not have my faith called into question by anyone.

Quote:

I'll directly answer your challenge and state I believe in Jesus Christ, the resurrection and that God exists.    I've never mentioned my personal beliefs on an online guitar, guns, fishing or golf forum until this very moment - and for the record, I'm not promoting Christianity, I'm simply responding to your challenge.    Faith is what it is - you either have it or you don't ... it isn't based on scientific or empirical data as you wish it would be.    I am Roman Catholic, and won't be bullied by you into feeling ashamed about it ...

Amen brother.

[Dave H]

Originally Posted by makaveli

I have never liked famous people who try too hard to show they are religious. Thank god there are not much in my country, and I am from Italy (where the Pope actually is) which is pretty weird...

p.s. (yeah I know the Vatican is another country but I am sure you get my point)

Oh, the irony kills me. Thank God for this post :-)

[jamo]

Some genuine curiosity: [quote name="the19thhole" url="/t/53805/webb-simpson-does-he-have-a-mind-of-his-own/90#post_654322"]You should count yourself lucky that there is a God because if this was all just random and we are now just a process of natural selection you would have died out long ago because your existance serves no purpose to our on going evolution. [/quote] I've never understood this argument. There has to be a God because otherwise we would have nothing to live for, that we'd have no reason to be nice? I'd like to think that people are nice because it's the right thing to do, because humans have consciouses, because we're capable or rational thought, because treating others the way you would like to be treated is the humane thing to do. [quote name="the19thhole" url="/t/53805/webb-simpson-does-he-have-a-mind-of-his-own/90#post_654322"]And to all others who read this sorry for the rant, but I will not have my faith called into question by anyone.[/quote] That's good and well, but I think non-religious people would like to receive the same. Someone responded to an earlier post of mine by saying "you must remember that a big part of all religions is to spread their faith and convert/save people who don't believe." Why can't non-religion (atheism, agnosticism, etc.) be the same? (And I don't mean Christian-bashing [or whatever Shorty is doing, because I honestly don't care what beliefs fuel other people, as long as it doesn't affect me], but missionaries, for example, are the definition of "having one's faith called into question.")

[the19thhole]

Originally Posted by jamo

Point 1

Some genuine curiosity:

I've never understood this argument. There has to be a God because otherwise we would have nothing to live for, that we'd have no reason to be nice? I'd like to think that people are nice because it's the right thing to do, because humans have consciouses, because we're capable or rational thought, because treating others the way you would like to be treated is the humane thing to do.

Point 2

That's good and well, but I think non-religious people would like to receive the same. Someone responded to an earlier post of mine by saying "you must remember that a big part of all religions is to spread their faith and convert/save people who don't believe." Why can't non-religion (atheism, agnosticism, etc.) be the same? (And I don't mean Christian-bashing [or whatever Shorty is doing, because I honestly don't care what beliefs fuel other people, as long as it doesn't affect me], but missionaries, for example, are the definition of "having one's faith called into question.")

I'll answer the 2 point separatley if I may.

Point 1:
My arguement was not that there has to be a God because He gives life meaning or because we have a conscience or capable of rational thought and all are true so thank you for putting this point out there. It was more aimed at Shorty in that natural selection is based on only useful things continuing to exist that allow us to evolve. If it has no purpose natural selection gets rid of it and as I see him as a virus on normal human kind he would be "naturally selected" so to speak so only by the grace of God.... Going back to the points you bring up. You state because we have a conscience, have you ever asked yourself why do we have one. Let's face life would be easier if we didn't and natural selection would argue it would be better if we didn't. No other living thing has one so why humans? Have you ever thought why do we make music or art as they serve no purpose in evolving us a species. For me it's when I look at my 2 daughters and see perfection that only God could create as I am not capable of it.

Point 2:

Poor choice of words on my part. Should have said don't like my faith being ridiculed or put down. Called into question was wrong on my part as that is your right to do so. I agree with you in that I would never call you stupid for not believing as that is your choice and I would never try and convert/save you as that is not my role. My role is only to be a good witness to my faith. No christian should be trying to do that as only God can convert/save. I agree we should all just get along and live as we see fit and with respect for all others. It's a pity Shorty can't do the same.

[shades9323]

I

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I wish we could block entire threads.

Good news! You can block entire threads by NOT entering them!

[mck]

Originally Posted by jamo

Some genuine curiosity:

I've never understood this argument. There has to be a God because otherwise we would have nothing to live for, that we'd have no reason to be nice? I'd like to think that people are nice because it's the right thing to do, because humans have consciouses, because we're capable or rational thought, because treating others the way you would like to be treated is the humane thing to do.

That's good and well, but I think non-religious people would like to receive the same. Someone responded to an earlier post of mine by saying "you must remember that a big part of all religions is to spread their faith and convert/save people who don't believe." Why can't non-religion (atheism, agnosticism, etc.) be the same? (And I don't mean Christian-bashing [or whatever Shorty is doing, because I honestly don't care what beliefs fuel other people, as long as it doesn't affect me], but missionaries, for example, are the definition of "having one's faith called into question.")

I think terms like “right and wrong” and “the humane thing to do” are being borrowed from theistic presuppositions.  Atheism cannot account for an objective—fixed standard of right and wrong—its all basically opinion and relative.  That’s not saying atheists aren’t good people—they are-its just saying their morality is not supported by their atheism.

Let’s say for example you’re speaking to a Hitler type person who is on their deathbed.  What could an atheist say to him at that point?  Why was the way he lived his life wrong?  He got away with it.  He and the most righteous person that ever existed are both heading into the same eternal nothingness.  There’s no accountability, no justice awaiting them—it’s all nothing.  So everything does reduce down to meaningless groups of chemicals.  Atheists may not like hearing that, but there’s no way around it.  It’s all matter in motion; and how you base a meaningful morality on that is beyond me.  Nothing would be more frightening than an atheist that lived out the logical consequences to their own beliefs.  Thankfully they don’t.

These discussions can get nasty and from my experience it’s usually the religious side that goes overboard.  Most non-religious people seem to have your attitude as opposed to a foaming-at-the-mouth atheist (if those really exist).  And to be fair to shorty, he’s aggressive and condescending on every topic he posts on, so anything he said in this thread shouldn’t be a surprise.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Shorty

I am not expecting to convert believers to atheism - I'm not that naive - but I would love to read something that could actually make a sane atheist (most of us probably are sane, perhaps not all ) reconsider his/her position. Please direct me to something - ANYTHING that might stand up to some sort of evidence based scrutiny. And please spare me the "intelligent design"nonsense about jet planes suddenly manufacturing themselves randomly.

On the other hand, why wouldn't a sane Christian be questioning his/her belief on an hourly basis - oh that's right, I must look at a flower to know that God exists.

On the other hand, given that my position is that there is no evidence at all to suggest the existence of a deity, why is it that "believers" are so thin skinned and easily offended?

If it was easy to ridicule an atheist, people would do it, but they can't - all they can do is go on about them having wretched, meaningless lives and being a sad mass of chemicals.

"Believers" aren't skinned and offended by defending their position about their beliefs, there offended by being ridiculed and called names and generally treated like they have to be stupid and insane.  You have the ability to debate, communication skills, and reasoning of a child.

I am only seeing ridicule coming from one side of this argument.  But, as others have pointed out, that's the way you handle every discussion.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by mck

Let’s say for example you’re speaking to a Hitler type person who is on their deathbed.  What could an atheist say to him at that point?  Why was the way he lived his life wrong?  He got away with it.  He and the most righteous person that ever existed are both heading into the same eternal nothingness.  There’s no accountability, no justice awaiting them—it’s all nothing.  So everything does reduce down to meaningless groups of chemicals.  Atheists may not like hearing that, but there’s no way around it.  It’s all matter in motion; and how you base a meaningful morality on that is beyond me.  Nothing would be more frightening than an atheist that lived out the logical consequences to their own beliefs.  Thankfully they don’t.

These discussions can get nasty and from my experience it’s usually the religious side that goes overboard.  Most non-religious people seem to have your attitude as opposed to a foaming-at-the-mouth atheist (if those really exist).  And to be fair to shorty, he’s aggressive and condescending on every topic he posts on, so anything he said in this thread shouldn’t be a surprise.

People do dumb shit, and generally they pay consequences for it by going to jail, or some other sort of effect. In Hitlers case, he was forced to kill himself along with his wife, lonely in a bunker awaiting certain capture.

I have the freedom to do as I choose in my life without having to be afraid of going to hell afterwards and being under torture for eternity. I don't have to live in fear and pray every night or ask for forgiveness for a mistake I may have made.

When I die, I can accept I have the same fate as a bug, and will rot away. We can live good lives knowing it is limited.

The idea of hell is disgusting and can turn people crazy - they live in fear their entire lives - it's sad and a shame to see people have to do some of the things they do just to avoid something that has no proof of existing....all to keep them in line.

The Bible is flawed and I refuse to believe in something so elaborate if a story like Noahs Ark is so flawed.

You know the main difference between a dog and a human?

A human has the brain capacity to make up some crazy stuff.

[iacas]

Oh Godwin. Let's not say the H or the N word again, eh?

And fwiw, I don't think atheism supports morality, no, but I think humanity does.

To the deathbed point, I've heard this offered as a reason why Christianity is lacking:

Bob is a great guy, charitable, nice, great son, father, husband, community member, etc.

Peter is a mass murderer who stole, raped, killed, and in general never lived a decent day in his life.

Bob's an atheist.

Peter accepts Jesus Christ into his heart a few days before he's lethally injected.

Bob is out of luck and Peter gets into Heaven?

To my point, and I won't link to my personal blog post again but it applies, but I have a hard time wanting to believe in a God who would "punish" me for seeking the "truth."

And to be clear, atheism is not lack of spirituality. Buddhists are technically atheists, after all. Atheism is not "doesn't believe in an afterlife of any kind" - atheism is "doesn't believe in a god."

Suppose Christianity is "right." What kind of God would punish people who were never exposed to the possibility of Christianity? Does that even make sense? That some kid in some middle eastern country never gets to learn about Christianity, is never given the chance to understand it, and well, he's out of luck?

And if Christianity is right, which brand? Does it matter? Why are there 2000 kinds of Christianity to begin with? Isn't a big part of what God or Jesus wants to teach "inclusiveness"? Yet the very religions people found in the name of God or Jesus are ex clusive? "Catholics are wrong but Protestants are right, and don't even get me started on the Jewish people or those Southern Baptists? Oh, and the Fundamentalists, they're craaaaaaaaazy!" Yeah, that's a welcoming committee... :-P

I've said for a long time that the worst thing to ever happen to religion was its formalization.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

The idea of hell is disgusting and can turn people crazy - they live in fear their entire lives - it's sad and a shame to see people have to do some of the things they do just to avoid something that has no proof of existing....all to keep them in line.

Why is is "sad and a shame" that people have a motivation to live a good moral life?  Wouldn't a lifestyle that "avoids hell" be a good one for someone to lead?  Isn't it decent to try to "keep in line"?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Why is is "sad and a shame" that people have a motivation to live a good moral life?  Wouldn't a lifestyle that "avoids hell" be a good one for someone to lead?  Isn't it decent to try to "keep in line"?

Why do people need the threat of eternal damnation in order to do the "right" thing?

I think the idea of Hell is at least a little disgusting, too. But hey, I clicker trained (positive reinforcement) my dog, so perhaps I'm naturally predisposed to disliking negative reinforcement.

[michaeljames92]

Well we all know how the Church of England was created. It's interesting to see how the branches of Christianity turn into different sects, the same way Sunni's and Shiites are basically the same except for a few very minor disagreements. In fact not many people know that Muslims acknowledge that Jesus was real and was a prophet. Again the differences are just disagreements in how the events unfolded and who the present people actually were.

I think that people like to think there is a God as it gives them a hope to live for after you die, instead of the nothingness that Atheists believe.

Originally Posted by iacas

Oh Godwin. Let's not say the H or the N word again, eh?

And fwiw, I don't think atheism supports morality, no, but I think humanity does.

To the deathbed point, I've heard this offered as a reason why Christianity is lacking:

Bob is a great guy, charitable, nice, great son, father, husband, community member, etc.

Peter is a mass murderer who stole, raped, killed, and in general never lived a decent day in his life.

Bob's an atheist.

Peter accepts Jesus Christ into his heart a few days before he's lethally injected.

Bob is out of luck and Peter gets into Heaven?

To my point, and I won't link to my personal blog post again but it applies, but I have a hard time wanting to believe in a God who would "punish" me for seeking the "truth."

And to be clear, atheism is not lack of spirituality. Buddhists are technically atheists, after all. Atheism is not "doesn't believe in an afterlife of any kind" - atheism is "doesn't believe in a god."

Suppose Christianity is "right." What kind of God would punish people who were never exposed to the possibility of Christianity? Does that even make sense? That some kid in some middle eastern country never gets to learn about Christianity, is never given the chance to understand it, and well, he's out of luck?

And if Christianity is right, which brand? Does it matter? Why are there 2000 kinds of Christianity to begin with? Isn't a big part of what God or Jesus wants to teach "inclusiveness"? Yet the very religions people found in the name of God or Jesus are exclusive? "Catholics are wrong but Protestants are right, and don't even get me started on the Jewish people or those Southern Baptists? Oh, and the Fundamentalists, they're craaaaaaaaazy!" Yeah, that's a welcoming committee... :-P

I've said for a long time that the worst thing to ever happen to religion was its formalization.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by iacas

Why do people need the threat of eternal damnation in order to do the "right" thing?

I think the idea of Hell is at least a little disgusting, too. But hey, I clicker trained (positive reinforcement) my dog, so perhaps I'm naturally predisposed to disliking negative reinforcement.

I have no idea what motivates people.  I'm not talking about the "why" or the motivation.  I was just making the point that the end result is a good thing.  I just don't see that as "sad or a shame".

People are motivated in many different ways to behave the way they do.  I don't care to dissect why one person acts with class and compassion while another is a condescending prick.  That is a bigger issue than religion.

[sean_miller]

Webb Simpson doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the drawer, but he's playing really good golf right now. Beyond that, I don't really follow him, other than noticing he's picked up the pace (ever so slightly) on club selection.

[michaeljames92]

His swing looks pretty awkward. Not the greatest thing to watch

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Webb Simpson doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the drawer, but he's playing really good golf right now. Beyond that, I don't really follow him, other than noticing he's picked up the pace (ever so slightly) on club selection.

[newtogolf]

If religion stopped there it would be positive, but it doesn't.  Most religions are non-profit businesses with an emphasis on highly  profitable business.  They maintain revenue by using the threat of hell to force patrons to attend weekly mass and make donations to remain in good standing.  Let's not even discuss the tele-evangelists that have stolen millions of dollars from people in the name of god.

When threatened, religions will resort to any means possible to defend their revenue, including the use of violence against innocents, women and children.  Throughout the world people are convinced to fly airplanes into buildings, bomb cars, buildings, abortion clinics  resulting in the death of thousands all in the name of god.  The violence that has gone on for years in Ireland or further back in time to the crusades - some of the most extreme violence in history - all in the name of god.

If there is a god, I highly doubt that he/she would condone the way that religions (which were supposedly created to worship and live according to gods word) have conducted themselves over time.

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Why is is "sad and a shame" that people have a motivation to live a good moral life?  Wouldn't a lifestyle that "avoids hell" be a good one for someone to lead?  Isn't it decent to try to "keep in line"?

[michaeljames92]

When wars are started over something as trivial as which religion you believe in, you know something isn't right.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If religion stopped there it would be positive, but it doesn't.  Most religions are non-profit businesses with an emphasis on highly  profitable business.  They maintain revenue by using the threat of hell to force patrons to attend weekly mass and make donations to remain in good standing.  Let's not even discuss the tele-evangelists that have stolen millions of dollars from people in the name of god.

When threatened, religions will resort to any means possible to defend their revenue, including the use of violence against innocents, women and children.  Throughout the world people are convinced to fly airplanes into buildings, bomb cars, buildings, abortion clinics  resulting in the death of thousands all in the name of god.  The violence that has gone on for years in Ireland or further back in time to the crusades - some of the most extreme violence in history - all in the name of god.

If there is a god, I highly doubt that he/she would condone the way that religions (which were supposedly created to worship and live according to gods word) have conducted themselves over time.