Playing by the rules........ Is there one here who can cast the first stone?

[Grumpter]

Quote:

I am amazed and rather annoyed by the frivolous nature of some of the contributions in this thread. The Rules of Golf are not open for ad hoc revision. They exist to guarantee the integrity of the sport. If you have ever provided a score for official or handicap purposes without being certain and honest that you have knowingly not broken any rules or compromised the integrity of the game, you are a cheat and should not be playing golf. It is that simple and that rigid, and that is how it should be. Anything less makes a mockery of the tradition, history and spirit of the game. In that sense I will cast the first stone, if that is how it is.

Nah, the rules of golf are open to any revision a person wants to make as long as they aren't using their revisions to gain an advantage in competitive play. After all it's their considerable time & money they are using to play the sport. There are plenty of players who keep a handicap without ever participating in formal events. Just because you want to play even 'friendly' rounds to the complete letter of the rules does not mean they want to. They are free to play however they see fit. Even if you are paying their golf expenses they are still free to play as they see fit.

Sorry, but you don't get a say in it until they agree to participate in a formal event that is governed by the official rules of golf. Until then they are free, and I encourage them, to tell players like you to stop butting in to their business. Seriously, why so uptight about how others play their own game?

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Nah, the rules of golf are open to any revision a person wants to make as long as they aren't using their revisions to gain an advantage in competitive play. After all it's their considerable time & money they are using to play the sport. There are plenty of players who keep a handicap without ever participating in formal events. Just because you want to play even 'friendly' rounds to the complete letter of the rules does not mean they want to. They are free to play however they see fit. Even if you are paying their golf expenses they are still free to play as they see fit.

Sorry, but you don't get a say in it until they agree to participate in a formal event that is governed by the official rules of golf. Until then they are free, and I encourage them, to tell players like you to stop butting in to their business. Seriously, why so uptight about how others play their own game?

Agree. People with such a strict view on golf make the game less fun for new comers and less appealing to people 1 year in. These are the type of people who carry Titleist and believe it means "entitled", that they're better and should have praise and eliminate golfers who do not carry a rule book in their back pocket.

Kind of like Bowling on TV which now plays hip-hop and rock songs between after strikes or between frames on TV to encourage a younger viewing and increase interest. Take away an amateur golfer's interest by hammering down on them, where you have no business telling them what to do, and you're hurting the game more than you are helping it.

I picture golfers like this yelling rules to other golfers who are not even in their group, or on a different hole. What, are you the guy who screams at the kids to get off your lawn too? Lighten up and mind your business. Golf courses do not need a community-USGA-watch. Let the rangers do their jobs and play your game.

[mdl]

Quote:

Always go back unless I'm simply going to be in my pocket for the rest of the hole. When I'm lucky enough to be walking (usually means I'm a guest at a club with caddies), I walk back. I do admit that I am the play-a-provisional nag in my group. I think hitting a provisional after a bad swing is a good way to start getting a good swing thought ready for the next tee.

Never thought of taking a more than likely unnecessary provisional as a way to try to groove a better swing for the next tee.  As I said earlier, the only rule I break sometimes is playing lost balls or OB balls that looked in bounds off the tee as a lateral hazard cause I refuse to walk 250-300 yards back to the tee box with a group already waiting on it (I only walk, and 95% of the time on full full courses) to re-tee.  But maybe I'll start slowing my group down a bit by taking some probably not necessary provisionals essentially as practice swings.

Guys talk about following the spirit but not the letter of the rules.  How's that for following the letter but not the spirit of the rules!

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by mdl

Guys talk about following the spirit but not the letter of the rules.  How's that for following the letter but not the spirit of the rules!

Better than making up your own rules such as playing OB balls as if they are in lateral hazards and giving yourself an advantage of, maybe 250  (or 300) yards plus negating the possibility of hitting another OB as you currently claim to do.

But.....you don't do what rustedcrab suggests, which is cheating.

You don't ever hit a "probably not necessary" provisional ball.

But you are within your rights - and encouraged - to hit a provisional if you think a ball could possibly be lost. A ball cutting into a heavily treed area is a perfect example.  Why wouldn't someone hit a provisional if they are unsure if they'll find their ball or not?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by ejimsmith

on hole 18, i remarked that as long as I don't double bogey, i'd still break 90.  one dude says "same here, but i'll still break 80" and the other says "if i bogey, i still end up with an 89"... NO FRIGGIN WAY were they playing by the rules.  one guy should've been in the high 80's and the other was closer to 100.   i ended up double bogey'ing that hole, and finishing with a 90.   one guys says he got 90 too, and the other claimed a 78.

If there were three of you, why weren't you marking one of their cards?

I'm guessing it was just a casual hit - but this is what don't get.....these guys are cheats, so why are they scoring?

People make a fuss about those who expect others to play by the rules, yet they still like to "score". Why is that? If they think that rules are for pedants, why do they care about their own score.

Anyone who doesn't play by the rules, but still claims a particular "score" after a game is a cheat.How else could you possibly put it?

I haven't marked my own card in 40 years.

I suppose occasionally poetic justice sets in - someone at works boasts about playing of 9 and shooting this score and that score, you have a game with him and he clearly can't break 100.

I've said it before -it's hilarious - we've had several Canadians and Americans on holiday who come and play in our comp - always off 12, funnily enough. NO idea of the rules  - don't even know how to mark their ball on the green - and can't break 110.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by mdl

Quote:

...  But maybe I'll start slowing my group down a bit by taking some probably not necessary provisionals essentially as practice swings.

Guys talk about following the spirit but not the letter of the rules.  How's that for following the letter but not the spirit of the rules!

I assume the first comment was sarcastic (always hard to be sure in writing). I would argue that you will not slow up your group unless you all intend to play OB as lateral water from the start. In practice, a well hit provisional can speed up play because the player looking for their ball often spends less time trying to finding it when their provisional is sitting in the middle of the fairway. Conversely, most of the guys I play with do not want to make the decision to play an OB ball as if it went in the hazard, even though they may do it if they were surprised to find their ball potentially OB. And most are very reluctant to go back and re-play the last shot. So, without a provisional in play, they will look as long as they are allowed. This slows play.

As for "not necessary" provisionals, I'd say that is bad form. If your ball is in bounds you may not hit a provisional. But if you or anyone else in your group thinks a provisional might be needed, then hit one. The good swing that follows is often the result of the freedom that comes from knowing it might not count. Those of us who play in groups that hit provisionals have all seen plenty of those second shots be perfect. Sort of like how making a putt is often easy once it has been conceded.

I do not view it as a violation of the spirit of the game to hit provisionals whenever there is a possibility of needing one. I view the extra "practice" and creating the chance for a good swing thought as an argument for those who resist.

BTW, in my regular group, we have created a practice of announcing the difference of ball being used for the provisional to avoid potential confusion when finding the ball(s) and to clearly declare the second ball as a provisional. "My provisional is a Titleist 3 with my marks in red. Not sure what the number is one the first one but it had my marks in black."

[ejimsmith]

Originally Posted by Shorty

If there were three of you, why weren't you marking one of their cards?

I'm guessing it was just a casual hit - but this is what don't get.....these guys are cheats, so why are they scoring?

People make a fuss about those who expect others to play by the rules, yet they still like to "score". Why is that? If they think that rules are for pedants, why do they care about their own score.

Anyone who doesn't play by the rules, but still claims a particular "score" after a game is a cheat.How else could you possibly put it?

I haven't marked my own card in 40 years.

I suppose occasionally poetic justice sets in - someone at works boasts about playing of 9 and shooting this score and that score, you have a game with him and he clearly can't break 100.

I've said it before -it's hilarious - we've had several Canadians and Americans on holiday who come and play in our comp - always off 12, funnily enough. NO idea of the rules  - don't even know how to mark their ball on the green - and can't break 110.

ok, now that's getting real anal.  but to answer you, both of us were using the digital scorecard on the GPS in the cart.  and i'm sure they don't post their score to GHIN.   i was only annoyed because when we were sharing our scores on the last hole, it felt as if we were comparing "on the same level".   had they said something like "yeah, i have the same score as you, though of course i've taken some liberties..", then i wouldn't have been annoyed at all.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejimsmith

on hole 18, i remarked that as long as I don't double bogey, i'd still break 90.  one dude says "same here, but i'll still break 80" and the other says "if i bogey, i still end up with an 89"... NO FRIGGIN WAY were they playing by the rules.  one guy should've been in the high 80's and the other was closer to 100.   i ended up double bogey'ing that hole, and finishing with a 90.   one guys says he got 90 too, and the other claimed a 78.

If there were three of you, why weren't you marking one of their cards?

I'm guessing it was just a casual hit - but this is what don't get.....these guys are cheats, so why are they scoring?

People make a fuss about those who expect others to play by the rules, yet they still like to "score". Why is that? If they think that rules are for pedants, why do they care about their own score.

Anyone who doesn't play by the rules, but still claims a particular "score" after a game is a cheat.How else could you possibly put it?

I haven't marked my own card in 40 years.

I suppose occasionally poetic justice sets in - someone at works boasts about playing of 9 and shooting this score and that score, you have a game with him and he clearly can't break 100.

I've said it before -it's hilarious - we've had several Canadians and Americans on holiday who come and play in our comp - always off 12, funnily enough. NO idea of the rules  - don't even know how to mark their ball on the green - and can't break 110.

Those foreigners who couldn't break 100 in your comp are almost as hilarious as that 7 capper you play with that somehow shot even par one day then choked his way to a 93 at the same course when it mattered. What a loser!!

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by mdl

Quote:

Never thought of taking a more than likely unnecessary provisional as a way to try to groove a better swing for the next tee.  As I said earlier, the only rule I break sometimes is playing lost balls or OB balls that looked in bounds off the tee as a lateral hazard cause I refuse to walk 250-300 yards back to the tee box with a group already waiting on it (I only walk, and 95% of the time on full full courses) to re-tee.  But maybe I'll start slowing my group down a bit by taking some probably not necessary provisionals essentially as practice swings.

Guys talk about following the spirit but not the letter of the rules.  How's that for following the letter but not the spirit of the rules!

You do realize that by doing this you are not just taking a little "harmless" shortcut but actually cheating by a stroke?  If you had hit a provisional then your next stroke would be your 4th (the provisional turned out to be your third when it became the ball in play).  But by playing it as a lateral your next stroke is your third.  There are rare circumstances where I would do what you do, but in those cases I add the extra stroke so as not to gain an unfair stroke advantage.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by turtleback

You do realize that by doing this you are not just taking a little "harmless" shortcut but actually cheating by a stroke?  If you had hit a provisional then your next stroke would be your 4th (the provisional turned out to be your third when it became the ball in play).  But by playing it as a lateral your next stroke is your third.  There are rare circumstances where I would do what you do, but in those cases I add the extra stroke so as not to gain an unfair stroke advantage.

You've still gained an advantage, by not hitting another ball that may have ended unplayable, lost, OB, or in a worse lie than where you're dropping. But yes, it's at least more logical to add 2 strokes than 1.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Beukes

I am amazed and rather annoyed by the frivolous nature of some of the contributions in this thread. The Rules of Golf are not open for ad hoc revision. They exist to guarantee the integrity of the sport. If you have ever provided a score for official or handicap purposes without being certain and honest that you have knowingly not broken any rules or compromised the integrity of the game, you are a cheat and should not be playing golf. It is that simple and that rigid, and that is how it should be. Anything less makes a mockery of the tradition, history and spirit of the game. In that sense I will cast the first stone, if that is how it is.

Then include every professional golfer in your disdain. In their practice rounds, on Tuesdays at tour stops, they hit extra drives, hit extra putts, and so on.

Ah, but you say, that's practice! Maybe so, but they're still playing golf. On a golf course.

So where I am at is, when I am doing the same, practicing while playing a round, I don't play by the rules either. But you bet your (insert body part here), that if we were playing a match or I was in competition, it would be by the rules. Couldn't be any other way.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Then include every professional golfer in your disdain. In their practice rounds, on Tuesdays at tour stops, they hit extra drives, hit extra putts, and so on.

Ah, but you say, that's practice! Maybe so, but they're still playing golf. On a golf course.

No they aren't. They aren't scoring.

[Beukes]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Seriously, why so uptight about how others play their own game?

To all those that did react to my note (and clearly there are many of you who obviously dislike the rules of golf):

I did stress in my note above that one should rigidly adhere and conform to the rules of golf when one intends to hand in a scorecard for whatever official reason or for handicap indexing.

If you are leisuring about or practicing on the course (I do both often) you simply should keep that "score" to yourself, report a Not-Recorded Round on the system and have a few beers. I do not care.

What I do care about, is that these leisure- and practice rounds are entered as proper, serious, competitive and committed rounds of golf by people who do not respect the tradition, history and spirit of the game. They are the guys suddenly making 54 points in a formal betterball competition (God only knows after how many Mulligans, gimmies, reshoots, lay changes, ets). I do not care about the cute little bread toaster they will be taking home to soften mommy up a little, viz. the alcohol stench.

I do care that they screw up the best game in the world. Golf, when rigidly played by its rules, is the most demanding, ruthless and vicious game in the world - far worse than kickboxing actually. When not played by its rules, on the other hand, there is nothing to it - literally just a walk in the park.

[mymizunosrock]

I see people breaking all kinds of rules just about every week (during comp, not a social round after work). The one that is broken more than any others are the rules that revolve around the relief you get with a water hazard or lateral water hazard. Most people tend to ignore the "2 club length" rule when it comes to the lateral hazard. Most come out as far as they want til the lie is either level or fluffy. They might as well drop the god damn ball in the middle of the fairway. Another is when people push down the grass behind the ball with either their club (on the sly) or dont even care who sees them and do it with their shoe. Sorry, these are the most basic of rules that every golfer should know. Add tapping down spike marks to that as well. Some people just dont know and you are doing yourself and the rest of the field, now and in the future, an injustice for not fixing the problem right there. As someone mentioned, we are not born knowing the rules and I have learnt some tricky ones in the past 2 years, so its our job to kindly pass on outr knowledge to those who are usually unknowingly breaking the rules (or reminding those who should know). Im a big advocate for the provisional ball. Whether its me or someone else in my group, its always better to just hit one now, while you are there, rather than walk all the way back to the tee. Im usually the one that has to make sure our group is keeping up with the group in front, so Im just doing my best to make that happen. If the original ball is still in play, then so be it. nothing gained, nothing lost.

I dont really care what people do outside of competitions. I will quite often hit 2 balls per hole when having round by myself, have a couple of chips and putts, as long as Im not holding anyone up. But, as soon as you tee off in any form of competition which involves the signing of cards and effecting your handicap, follow them to the letter. I think joining a club should be like getting a drivers licence. They dont let you drive without knowing the road rules. There should be 10 basic every day run of the mill rule questions that have to be answered before they let you join. That would be easier in comparison to how hard it is to get into some clubs, why not make sure everyone is aware of some basic rules and even etiquette.

[clubchamp]

I play by the rules every time I know I'm playing 18 because I will enter the score for my handicap. Now I have some buddies I play with who when they hit it OB they just drop where it went out. The reason I don't care is it keeps up pace of play, it's more enjoyable for them, I get to keep my sanity, and none of them keep a handicap.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

If your ball is in bounds you may not hit a provisional. But if you or anyone else in your group thinks a provisional might be needed, then hit one.

To me these two sentences seem to contradict. You can hit a provisional even if your ball is in bounds. As long as it is possibly lost and not in water hazard.

[rustyredcab]

If you know your ball is findable and in bounds, you may not hit a provisional. In an earlier post I was not advocating hitting provisionals just for practice when you are not entitled. But if you are not sure if it is OB or it is likely going to be lost, hit a darn provisional. Example of when you should not hit a provisional: hook a drive clearly heading OB that hits a tree and your cart-mate sees the ball hit the tree and go straight down in bounds and is very findable. You don't see it but he did and is sure. In that case, I would say you can't just decide that you'd like a practice swing and call it a provisional.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Beukes

I do care that they screw up the best game in the world. Golf, when rigidly played by its rules, is the most demanding, ruthless and vicious game in the world - far worse than kickboxing actually. When not played by its rules, on the other hand, there is nothing to it - literally just a walk in the park.

Now that's funny.