So much for lessons.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I'll ask you this question:  If someone came to you for a lesson, and exhibited what you felt was a poor address position, held the club poorly, and lined up haphazardly, would you attempt to modify anything?  Would you offer advice as to perhaps a better way to hold the club, or a better way to stand or align?  Or would you say "That's OK.  Those are not fundamentals to a good swing, and lots of professionals grip the club differently."

You're missing the point that others are trying to make. And that's not to say that you're wrong, just to say what I said: you're missing the point they're trying to make.

If that golfer came to you and hit the ball solidly, hit the ball far, but perhaps had trouble controlling the curve of his golf ball, you very well might not touch his "address position, grip, or alignment." After all, in the minds of some instructors, Paul Azinger gripped the club poorly, Lee Trevino lined up poorly, and Arnold Palmer had terrible posture.

You fix the things that need fixing to achieve the commonalities among the great players: hit the ball solidly, hit the ball far enough to play the course, and control the curve.

Nobody's saying a grip isn't important. It affects a lot. It's very important. But it's not a "fundamental" because there's no one way to grip the club (unless your "one way" is "in your hands, not in your teeth.").

We've had strong and weak grips win majors. We've had people grip the club in the palms (Tiger, Moe) and in the fingers (most other golfers). We've had left hand on top and cross-handed grips. Guys stand tall or slouch over. Guys aim left or right.

That's the point others are trying to make.

[mvmac]

You're missing the point that others are trying to make. And that's not to say that you're wrong, just to say what I said: you're missing the point they're trying to make.

If that golfer came to you and hit the ball solidly, hit the ball far, but perhaps had trouble controlling the curve of his golf ball, you very well might not touch his "address position, grip, or alignment." After all, in the minds of some instructors, Paul Azinger gripped the club poorly, Lee Trevino lined up poorly, and Arnold Palmer had terrible posture.

You fix the things that need fixing to achieve the commonalities among the great players: hit the ball solidly, hit the ball far enough to play the course, and control the curve.

Nobody's saying a grip isn't important. It affects a lot. It's very important. But it's not a "fundamental" because there's no one way to grip the club (unless your "one way" is "in your hands, not in your teeth.").

We've had strong and weak grips win majors. We've had people grip the club in the palms (Tiger, Moe) and in the fingers (most other golfers). We've had left hand on top and cross-handed grips. Guys stand tall or slouch over. Guys aim left or right.

That's the point others are trying to make.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said ;-) There have been times on evolvr and schools that I've fixed grip and something in the set-up right away and there's been other where something was more important at the time. Sometimes both, like with vanpooten on here. It all depends on the situation and the player. Example would be if a player's shoulder turn is too shallow, left shoulder doesn't go down far enough, weight stays back and hits pulls cuts and his grip is much in his left palm, the priority piece to to work on the pivot stuff first, then add the grip adjustment. Unless the students says something about his grip, doesn't feel right or look right etc.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I guess I would ask you the same question that I posed to JetFan. Why are those things relatively unimportant to you?  As you say, it is fundamental to hit the ground in the same spot consistently.  I agree.  But is it easier to do this when the ball is in the relative same spot in your stance, or is it easier to do it if it doesn't really matter from swing to swing where you stand in relation to the ball?  Is it easier to hit toward a target if you are careful to line up to that target, or is it easier if you don't care where you are lined up?

It's certainly possible to play good golf with different grips, different stances, different alignment procedures, if they are consistently and carefully applied from shot to shot.  To discount them by saying they are not fundamental to playing well just doesn't make sense.

This was in my first post on this thread, in response to Tourspoon:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

All due respect, but really? How can you still think stance, alignment, and grip are fundamental at this point? They are important, but they are variables. So many good players don't have the same grip, stance, and alignment. I thought this had been well established around here for a long time.

When I say something isn't fundamental, I am not saying they are unimportant. They are important. But you can fix a person's grip, stance, and posture in a matter of minutes. And setup changes are not difficult to implement consistently. However, getting a player to hit the ground in the same place every single time can take a lot of work, depending on their talent and dedication levels.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I was just saying that when the golfer's weight and handle are forward, you can have a screwed up alignment, grip, and stance and still hit the ball solidly and in the vicinity of the target. There are so many people who struggle with that.

I guess I have a different perspective than most on this site because I'm probably the least talented player here. So that gives me a different perspective than most maybe? I kind of view everything from the eyes of the total hacker.

Does it not seem odd that, as you say, you are probably the least talented player here (certainly not the case, BTW) yet you are saying that alignment, grip and stance are relatively unimportant.  Do you not try to have a good grip, good stance and good alignment?

Why would you discount the basic fundamentals of the game?

Again, as I said above, they are very important. And I appreciate your compliment. I may not be the least talented, but I'm certainly down there. I practiced so much this season to get to where I'm at right now that I developed tendinitis in both my wrists. That's a lot of practicing. And I barely broke a handicap of 15 (oddly enough, you can still play with tendinitis, or maybe I just have a good pain tolerance, who knows).

I don't discount grip, stance, and posture at all.

Also, during my first S&T; lesson, the first thing the instructor did for me was change my grip. I held it too much in the palm and he made it stronger. I could not hit a push-draw to save my life and this was the first piece he gave me. It felt weird but I adapted very quickly to it.

Now, hitting the ground in the same place every time? It is something I am still working on to this day. And I seriously must have drove my instructor insane with how bad I am. God bless him, but I must have drove him crazy this season with all the terrible shots I hit doing a variation of the max delay drill . The guy had incredible patience with me.

So fixing my grip was important for me. I use a stronger grip to this day, and I like it a lot. But that took just 30 seconds to fix. My posture was good so he didn't mess with that at all.

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

I would agree except common sense is not common practice, even more so when golf is involved.  Just go to the range and look to see how many people start with their shoulders wide open to their imaginary target line (if they even have a target).

I did this too. And my teacher fixed that. Again, this took only 30 seconds for me to fix.

Even though one should feel athletic and lively at setup, it's still a static position. And I feel it's very easy to make those kinds of changes right away. But controlling curve, having consistent power, and controlling your low point can take a lot of work.

If you can have a perfect grip, stance and posture but still hit it fat, duck hook it or slice it; or on the other hand, have a terrible grip, stance and posture, but still get your weight forward and forward shaft lean at impact and can still hit the ball first, with power and accuracy, which is more important?

Again, I stress, both are important, but which one is more important?

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by iacas

We've had strong and weak grips win majors. We've had people grip the club in the palms (Tiger, Moe) and in the fingers (most other golfers). We've had left hand on top and cross-handed grips. Guys stand tall or slouch over. Guys aim left or right.

So if I do better with the club more into my hand than in the fingers I dont need to feel like its something I have to change because someone else says its 'wrong' ?

I ask because I like the way I was gripping the club but I let someone jabber me out of doing it that way and it wasnt helping me at all trying to force myself to turn the hand around more.

[Kobey]

You guys are talking me into it.  I like what you are saying about how a good instructor would do it.  Hopefully I can find an instructor that isn't fixed on only one way to do things.

Knowing my luck, I'll get the one that makes me wax his car and paint his fence first.  Wax on!  Wax off!

[izidental]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Good points.

This guy had a horrible anger issue. I cant even post the vulgarity he was using. Lots of derogatory words used for the female genitalia, if you know what I mean.

Im wondering now if he wasnt much worse before getting the instruction.

I got the information I want. thanks a lot

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by izidental

I got the information I want. thanks a lot

Not sure what you were looking for, exactly.

We only played a few holes with this guy and he blew his top on the second tee after joining up.

He was definitely one of those tempers you wouldnt want to be around if there was anything sharp laying nearby.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Kobey

You guys are talking me into it.  I like what you are saying about how a good instructor would do it.  Hopefully I can find an instructor that isn't fixed on only one way to do things.

Knowing my luck, I'll get the one that makes me wax his car and paint his fence first.  Wax on!  Wax off!

Just remember to angle the brush handle forward so that you can better control the low point to provide a consistent application of the paint in the direction of the grain.  This will allow you to paint the fence in the least amount of strokes needed.   All the greats did this, Picasso, Michaelangelo, Da Vinci,  etc.

My best piece of advice is to meet with the instructor before the lesson and communicate your goals to him so that you both can develop a plan that gets you there.  Good luck!

[The Recreational Golfer]

We all have different swings because we have different body conformations, strength, flexibility, and different internalized conceptions of movement.

Nowhere in any definition of the word is it expressed that a fundamental has to be be performed by every person in an identical way. A fundamental is a bedrock concept or procedure that must be done correctly for anything else that follows to be successful other than by chance.

The function of the setup is to put our body in the best position for our best swing to come out. Even minor variations can cause the swing to be disrupted. That is why the setup is a fundamental of the golf swing, and because of the reasons mentioned above, everyone will have a slightly different setup. But no one can have any old setup.

A good teaching pro would be able to take a player of certain skill and say, for example, "Given your swing, you need to move your grip to (here). The grip you have now isn't helping you," etc.

The same would concern stance. You don't want a hook stance with a slice swing. Put Lee Trevino in Sam Snead's stance and there would be big trouble.

Also, a fundamental is a cause, not an effect. A certain kind of contact with the ball is the result of performing fundamental movements correctly. That contact is not a fundamental. It is a goal that performing fundamentals correctly leads to. If you do all these things right (fundamentals), this is what you get (a clean strike). What you want to do is the goal, and how you do it consistently is to apply fundamentals of the sport. Release point is a fundamental of baseball pitching. Every pitcher has his own release point, but every pitcher has to have the right one, for him, to achieve one of the goals of pitching, which is to land the pitch in the right spot.

But don't ask me, I'm a handicap golfer. Ask the champion touring pros why, when they write their instruction book, they have a chapter titled Fundamentals and in it what they talk about is grip, stance, posture, and alignment.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

But don't ask me, I'm a handicap golfer. Ask the champion touring pros why, when they write their instruction book, they have a chapter titled Fundamentals and in it what they talk about is grip, stance, posture, and alignment.

Playing devil's advocate here.  Some of those pros also have chapters saying the ball ends up where the face is pointing and start on line with the direction of the path.

[WUTiger]

:

...  Many people have many different opinions on how to best apply the club to the ball, some work for some people and don't work for others. The secret, as stated above, is to find the right instructor for you and you alone.

Lessons work best if you have an instructor that "makes sense' to you. I have had lessons from pros that who were good golfers, and had successful students, but their system just didn't work for me. Must say I've been lucky since about 2001 - my last three instructors all seem to be on the same page, have the same "system," even though they don't know each other.

Here's added advice for beginners (my opinion): If you're making progress with one instructor, avoid reading stray golf tips here and there. Some of them may work against the system your instructor uses. After a season or two, you can probably tell if a tip fits your system. But in the early going, avoid them.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This was in my first post on this thread, in response to Tourspoon:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

All due respect, but really? How can you still think stance, alignment, and grip are fundamental at this point? They are important, but they are variables. So many good players don't have the same grip, stance, and alignment. I thought this had been well established around here for a long time.

When I say something isn't fundamental, I am not saying they are unimportant. They are important. But you can fix a person's grip, stance, and posture in a matter of minutes. And setup changes are not difficult to implement consistently. However, getting a player to hit the ground in the same place every single time can take a lot of work, depending on their talent and dedication levels.

Again, as I said above, they are very important. And I appreciate your compliment. I may not be the least talented, but I'm certainly down there. I practiced so much this season to get to where I'm at right now that I developed tendinitis in both my wrists. That's a lot of practicing. And I barely broke a handicap of 15 (oddly enough, you can still play with tendinitis, or maybe I just have a good pain tolerance, who knows).

I don't discount grip, stance, and posture at all.

Also, during my first S&T; lesson, the first thing the instructor did for me was change my grip. I held it too much in the palm and he made it stronger. I could not hit a push-draw to save my life and this was the first piece he gave me. It felt weird but I adapted very quickly to it.

Now, hitting the ground in the same place every time? It is something I am still working on to this day. And I seriously must have drove my instructor insane with how bad I am. God bless him, but I must have drove him crazy this season with all the terrible shots I hit doing a variation of the max delay drill. The guy had incredible patience with me.

So fixing my grip was important for me. I use a stronger grip to this day, and I like it a lot. But that took just 30 seconds to fix. My posture was good so he didn't mess with that at all.

I did this too. And my teacher fixed that. Again, this took only 30 seconds for me to fix.

Even though one should feel athletic and lively at setup, it's still a static position. And I feel it's very easy to make those kinds of changes right away. But controlling curve, having consistent power, and controlling your low point can take a lot of work.

If you can have a perfect grip, stance and posture but still hit it fat, duck hook it or slice it; or on the other hand, have a terrible grip, stance and posture, but still get your weight forward and forward shaft lean at impact and can still hit the ball first, with power and accuracy, which is more important?

Again, I stress, both are important, but which one is more important?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that maybe those grip, stance, alignment etc non-fundamental changes may not be as quick as you think. Hitting a different spot (i.e. 2 inches ahead of the ball v. 5 inches) took me about 1/2 an hour to get pretty consistent, and maybe a month to become absolute second nature. A grip change took about the same amount of time. Easy to think the change was second nature, until it really was and I didn't have to think about it any more. Maybe once you get used to your new grip, and all the subtle little swing nuances that changes as a result, you'll hit the ball better.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that maybe those grip, stance, alignment etc non-fundamental changes may not be as quick as you think. Hitting a different spot (i.e. 2 inches ahead of the ball v. 5 inches) took me about 1/2 an hour to get pretty consistent, and maybe a month to become absolute second nature. A grip change took about the same amount of time. Easy to think the change was second nature, until it really was and I didn't have to think about it any more. Maybe once you get used to your new grip, and all the subtle little swing nuances that changes as a result, you'll hit the ball better.

But they were though. I changed them very quickly.

Wow 30 minutes, and then a month to be second nature? That's fast.

You may be discounting how much longer you've played golf than I have though. I've really only played about two years, having spent 2009 on the injured list and 2010 just not having the time for it. 2008 and 2011 were my big golf years.

It seems quite apparent to me though that low point control is something most players struggle with. You should consider yourself pretty high in the percentile range for adapting that quickly to getting your low point that far forward.

If nothing else, the next time I practice, I'll keep that in mind to see if I can adapt quicker to a low point that is more towards my front foot.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that maybe those grip, stance, alignment etc non-fundamental changes may not be as quick as you think. Hitting a different spot (i.e. 2 inches ahead of the ball v. 5 inches) took me about 1/2 an hour to get pretty consistent, and maybe a month to become absolute second nature. A grip change took about the same amount of time. Easy to think the change was second nature, until it really was and I didn't have to think about it any more. Maybe once you get used to your new grip, and all the subtle little swing nuances that changes as a result, you'll hit the ball better.

But they were though. I changed them very quickly.

Wow 30 minutes, and then a month to be second nature? That's fast.

You may be discounting how much longer you've played golf than I have though. I've really only played about two years, having spent 2009 on the injured list and 2010 just not having the time for it. 2008 and 2011 were my big golf years.

It seems quite apparent to me though that low point control is something most players struggle with. You should consider yourself pretty high in the percentile range for adapting that quickly to getting your low point that far forward.

If nothing else, the next time I practice, I'll keep that in mind to see if I can adapt quicker to a low point that is more towards my front foot.

I was a sweeper / nipper of the ball for years. I played better out the short rough and off baked fairways than perfect lies on lush heavily irrigated fairways. I struck the ball well most days, but was inconsistent and erred on the side of thinning the ball. Thin shots tend to travel a similar distance overall, but flatter and with less spin (sidespin and back spin - there's a reason old guys say "thin to win") .

Switching to a more ascending blow with a swing bottom farther ahead was actually an easier transition than weakening my right hand position was the summer before.

ymmv and all that

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

You're missing the point that others are trying to make. And that's not to say that you're wrong, just to say what I said: you're missing the point they're trying to make.

I have to admire your patience Erik. Rehashing the same stuff to the same people that clearly want to miss the point must get real tiring.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that maybe those grip, stance, alignment etc non-fundamental changes may not be as quick as you think. Hitting a different spot (i.e. 2 inches ahead of the ball v. 5 inches) took me about 1/2 an hour to get pretty consistent, and maybe a month to become absolute second nature. A grip change took about the same amount of time. Easy to think the change was second nature, until it really was and I didn't have to think about it any more. Maybe once you get used to your new grip, and all the subtle little swing nuances that changes as a result, you'll hit the ball better.

But they were though. I changed them very quickly.

Wow 30 minutes, and then a month to be second nature? That's fast.

You may be discounting how much longer you've played golf than I have though. I've really only played about two years, having spent 2009 on the injured list and 2010 just not having the time for it. 2008 and 2011 were my big golf years.

It seems quite apparent to me though that low point control is something most players struggle with. You should consider yourself pretty high in the percentile range for adapting that quickly to getting your low point that far forward.

If nothing else, the next time I practice, I'll keep that in mind to see if I can adapt quicker to a low point that is more towards my front foot.

Keep in mind that when I say "consistent" I mean it was at least as consistent as my previous target (essentially just beyond the ball) and I think that years of playing was certainly a factor. That's probably why for me, ball position, alignment, and grip changes are significant. When I was a pure beginner by comparison, I probably wouldn't have noticed those changes because my swing shape, and subsequently my swing bottom, were all over the map.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Meh.

I just enjoy learning to play and being out on the course. This isnt a status thing for me and certainly isnt anything Id want to do as a career and ruin the 'fun' of it all.

Frankly, I hope I never break 80 because I love to learn and if I was ever a 'par' player Id feel like there was nothing left but to hack the ball around in the grass.

As long as getting it 'right' is a challenge, I'll be interested. If Im playing par golf it wont be anymore.

I want to keep it this way in my mind so I dont lose sight of the fact that Im having fun.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I have to admire your patience Erik. Rehashing the same stuff to the same people that clearly want to miss the point must get real tiring.

I don't know that I agree with that. I like it when people play devil's advocate. Even if it's the same people all the time. :-)