So much for lessons.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

This guy sounds so much like me I could swear I wrote this myself....minus the money spent, of course.

This hungry monster needs a lot of food (money). The dope addict needs a fix. Somewhere there is a need. And, in the golf industry, that need is cleverly disguised as confusion. Confuse the golfer and he will be back for more. He doesn't want anyone to think he is stupid or no talent, so he will convince himself that maybe he just didn't get it the first time, or second, or...?

A reader sends along this interesting observation: "My experience has been that the overwhelming majority, 85-plus percent unduly complicate the golf swing. I have spent thousands of dollars to come to this conclusion. I often wonder if it is a deliberate attempt to keep one in golfing no-mans land." Thanks, Chip!

Has the beast made a puppet out of us? Send the golfer a new magazine and watch him tear into it to find the "latest tip." Try it. Doesn't work? No problem, they will send you another next month that will give you just the opposite advice. The golf pro can't tell you the golf swing is simple.

He could explain it ALL in one lesson, but if he did and IF the golf mags didn't have new "bogus"tips and the book writers didn't have a batch of golfer wanabees drooling at the thought of getting better . . . They would all die an excruciating death from starvation.  They CAN"T tell the truth. . . It would be Suicide.

AND that $500 driver?  If your swing STINKS, it will NOT make any difference. It looks pretty goofy to stand up on the first tee with a $500 club and slice it into a subdivision.

http://www.mcgolf.com/article1.shtml

I notice that pretty much right off when reading instructors that some of the instruction was contradictory.

I watched ONE video a week or so ago and my swing got better the very next round.

I just dont know if I buy that 6 years of instruction is going to make a difference.

Either a person CAN get better if they understand the basic swing....or they cant. Either because of some mental block or physical issue.

It just seems entirely unfair to me to have an instructor leading a person along for 3 years and for that person to not get any better.

My brother in law doesnt know how to play. When we get together next summer Im going to show him what I know and see if hes not playing half way decent in one day or not. Ive been dying to know if a person can pick up the club and just by knowing what they have to do start hitting halfway decent shots pretty much immediately.

[JetFan1983]

A lot of golf instructors string people along. It's unfortunate. But if you're smart, you can learn how to avoid it. How to spot them.

But let me be clear: Not all golf instructors are charlatan douche bags.

Check out this article from Erik. It's a good place for you to start, with some questions you should ask yourself.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I notice that pretty much right off when reading instructors that some of the instruction was contradictory.

True, and especially true for tips you get from TV or magazines. Also, a golfer -- with no foundation of understanding -- will inevitable go off in 50 different directions when working on his swing on his own and/or when he's struggling.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I just dont know if I buy that 6 years of instruction is going to make a difference.

With a good instructor and hard work, it'll make a helluva difference. But you have to be willing to learn and you have to be able to trust that the guy is legit. Many instructors are legit.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Either a person CAN get better if they understand the basic swing....or they cant. Either because of some mental block or physical issue.

I think anyone can get better if they are willing to learn, trust, and practice. And in the absence of talent, they'll need a good instructor for any of that to matter.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

It just seems entirely unfair to me to have an instructor leading a person along for 3 years and for that person to not get any better.

Sorry for being a bit cheesy here, but life isn't fair. Every investment you make isn't gonna pan out unfortunately. There are a lot of pit falls along the way. All of them can be avoid though if you have the correct information.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

My brother in law doesnt know how to play. When we get together next summer Im going to show him what I know and see if hes not playing half way decent in one day or not. Ive been dying to know if a person can pick up the club and just by knowing what they have to do start hitting halfway decent shots pretty much immediately.

This assumes you know how to teach worth a lick Most golf instructors are bad not because they're hiding information from you. They don't know the correct information to begin with.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

On the linked page that guy does make sure to say that he's not saying that all instructors are worthless, just the majority.

I seriously doubt I'll order anything from him either, altho I have to say that his videos did seem to be a lot  better priced than many others Ive crossed, not that that means a lot.

The one question I have about that Mclellan guy, however, is why his name isnt more popular if he was so good?

Not that I dont think there arent any par players who just arent interested in going on tour, but seems that his name would be easier to find than accidently stumbling across on youtube.

As far as myself, I keep life fair by simply keeping my own money in my pocket.
If it were my intent to try to get rich playing golf, Id probaby find the best, most expensive instructor on the planet and get shoulder deep in debt learning from him.

Since Im just a guy who likes to play once a week or so and can easily learn from instructional videos instead for free, it just seems to be the best route for me personally.

I do like the fact that this guy just puts it out there. I hate cereal filler in a discussion...all the waste words on weather and such. If something needs to be said, just say it. Which I find appealing about the material of his that Ive read so far.

As far as the brother in law goes, thats really the point. I dont want to know how to 'teach' per se....I want to see if I show him the basic swing if HIS brain can pick it up, translate it into body motions and then hit the ball fairly accurately.

If I was a teacher it would defeat the point of the experiment.

I did take my nephew out last week for 18 holes and by the end of the round he was hitting some pretty decent shots. He pushed and pulled a number of them but no slices or hooks at all. My nephew has a weight problem, however, so his chest is so big that he has problems getting a very long backswing....I mean the club barely goes beyond the 90 degree mark in the backswing before he's struggling.

The brother in law is lean and tall like Tiger, so Im betting that hes more like me and can wrap the club back around like a contortionist

The one point you made was ' With a good instructor and hard work, it'll make a helluva difference"

But what about with hard work and a basic understanding of the golf swing instead?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This assumes you know how to teach worth a lick  Most golf instructors are bad not because they're hiding information from you. They don't know the correct information to begin with.

I unfortunately agree.

There's no conspiracy out there where instructors know the ball flight laws but choose to teach something different.  Instructors want golfers to get better, that's how they build their business.  And there was a point made about.  Having said that some are adverse to learning something new lol   And even if an instructor knows their stuff, the student has to put in the hard work.  The "answer" is not always easy and the solutions vary from student to student.

Golf Mag can be a different story, instructors don't produce the final product, editors do

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by mvmac

I unfortunately agree.

There's no conspiracy out there where instructors know the ball flight laws but choose to teach something different.  Instructors want golfers to get better, that's how they build their business.  And there was a point made about.  Having said that some are adverse to learning something new lol   And even if an instructor knows their stuff, the student has to put in the hard work.  The "answer" is not always easy and the solutions vary from student to student.

Golf Mag can be a different story, instructors don't produce the final product, editors do

But there again we come back to this one point.

How about a lot of hard work and a basic understanding of the golf swing?

For the first time in my life I can hit a driver and hit it pretty well and fairly consistently.

Years ago when some hack tried to teach me all he did was cause me a lot of back pain and a hatred of the game.

I held onto my irons all these years and about 3 months ago just got the urge to try the game again.

Just by going to the range a few times a week and hitting a small bucket and playing a round every so often, I can now walk up to tee box and hit my driver a fairly decent distance and keep it on these narrower fairways. I have hit more greens from 150 and closer than I can remember. My back hasnt even felt uncomfortable yet and in fact I pulled it out lifting some stuff the other day, but went and played 18 anyway and by the end my back felt great (probably loosened up some tight muscles or something).

The only part of my game that is still rancid  is something youtube isnt going to help much...putting.

I can drop a ball from 150 up onto the green 5 feet from the hole and be playing for birdie and then 3 or even 4 putt.

But the point is as far as the long game Ive gone from 0 to 40 in 90 days or so. I sincerely dont think that paying $1000 for lessons would have helped me progress much quicker *IF* any quicker at all....other than my putting which I figure I'll have to put hard work into either way.

I dont know if I buy any intentional conspiracy with golf pros, but I DO believe Ive seen it as far as dentists go. They have intentionally NOT done things I asked for during a surgery which left me having to come back for yet another visit. I asked to have a tooth pulled while I was under because it was damaged and I need plates anyway, but this jerk decided to leave it meaning it had to be repaired instead of just pulled. It was my call as we both agreed on before the surgery (he actually told me it should be pulled a couple visits prior to that) but it was pretty much the ONLY thing that needed to still be done after the surgery was over. Had he pulled it like I directly asked him to, that was my last visit to him other than fitting for the plate. Instead I had to get it repaired since the insurance wasnt happy about paying for the surgery again.

He intentionally left something undone so Id be forced to see him again.

The wife had the SAME thing happen at a difference dentist.

They informed us she had THREE teeth that needed drilled and filled. Fine....$500. Heres a credit card.

So she goes in for the appointment and when shes all done the dental assistant comes out and says we'll be happy that they only had to fixed TWO of the teeth.

But Im CHARGED for THREE which they would not make right on.

So we go to another dentist and sure as hell enough, shes got ONE tooth that needs to be fixed.

Her dentist pulled the same thing mine had....left something undone so she'd have to go back for another visit.

I cant say for certain that golf instructors do the same thing, but what Mclellan said certainly has something to it. If their students ever KNOW how to play the game and correct themselves because they understand the golf swing, the instructor is out of a customer.

Just like if a dentist actually FIXES all three teeth instead of leaving one he knows just needs filled.

Certainly most people get dental cleanings, but thats not exactly the bread and butter of dentistry. My wifes dentist gets $50 for a cleaning and shes in their at least half an hour. No big money there. Surgery on the other hand...

When I owned my printing business it was repeat business that I counted on, not random walk ins which were mostly small change.

I cant see instructors liking the 'one shot' student over the guy who has been coming to him for 7 years and still hacks them off into the trees.

All this is just an opinion, mind you.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

actually this just came to mind. Simple questions for golf instructors (not sure if there are any on this forum or not).

1. Do you make more money from repeat business or the guys who come in for maybe 1 or 2 lessons in any given year?

2. Have you ever had a student NOT need to see you anymore because he understood the golf swing so well that he could self correct?

Heres MY philosophy on 'teaching'.

If I were a teacher of any sort MY job is to teach my student in such a way as their not needing me at all as quickly as possible.

If after so long a period of time my student still depends on me to correct him, then I havent done MY job teaching him to UNDERSTAND what he is doing.

Maybe this is the problem with some of it. Maybe some students are just so dumb that, like many high school students today, that its not the teachers fault at all that they cant 'get it'. Or they are physically incapable of doing what they are being told to do.

At some point, however, it would be honest of the INSTRUCTOR to just say to this student ...."Im sorry, but there really isnt anything more I can teach you and youre wasting your money and time seeing me at this point".

I wonder how many instructors have actually done that when they've realized theyre dealing with a Forest Gump? Or someone who simply could not swing the club correctly?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I cant say for certain that golf instructors do the same thing, but what Mclellan said certainly has something to it. If their students ever KNOW how to play the game and correct themselves because they understand the golf swing, the instructor is out of a customer.

Yeah, the thing about that is, it's not even close to true.

First off, the student would have to know a hell of a lot about the golf swing. Not everything, maybe not even the majority of what a good or great pro has to know, granted, but enough that they can continue to work on and improve their swing. That much knowledge would take at a minimum a few hundred hours to learn, and that's if you get lucky and happen to get only good information that applies to your motion, not only now, but in the future.

Second of all, it's far more likely that you'll lose a customer if they don't get better.

Instead, good instructors create an atmosphere where the student improves. That improvement can be addicting. You take a guy from an 18 to a 9 and he wants to be a 5. Then a 2. Then scratch. And unless they properly apply a few hundred hours of learning, they still need you for that.

Anyone can drive a car or go on a hike or steer a boat or whatever - but that doesn't stop people from hiring tour guides that know the ins and outs of a city or the jungle or whatever.

You have it backwards. The good instructors don't fear giving their students information - they in fact strive to share information - because they know that unless he student spends hundreds or thousands of hours of study, they're not going to suddenly stop needing the instructor.

The poor instructors? I'm sure they play stupid games like this. Really, I think they just don't have much information to give.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

1. Do you make more money from repeat business or the guys who come in for maybe 1 or 2 lessons in any given year?

2. Have you ever had a student NOT need to see you anymore because he understood the golf swing so well that he could self correct?

1. A much higher percentage of our students are repeat students. You can't burn through students who take one lesson. If you're doing that, odds are you suck as an instructor. And we have repeat customers who travel literally from 38 states and eight countries to come see us. Students who have worked with us at great expense. So yeah, we have repeat customers. Customers who fly in from Russia, for example, because they like what we do so much.
2. We give all of our students as much information as they can take. Pictures, videos, etc. They all know how to correct their most important piece(s). The ones who work at it get better, and again, want to come back for more. It's great to get better at something. Again, the student is not going to know enough to fix everything that ever happens. They come back when they hit a road block. They inevitably do. And we give them a lesson again, with new information about their new issues. It's a pretty safe bet to bank on the fact that there are always going to be issues.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Heres MY philosophy on 'teaching'.

If I were a teacher of any sort MY job is to teach my student in such a way as their not needing me at all as quickly as possible.

If after so long a period of time my student still depends on me to correct him, then I havent done MY job teaching him to UNDERSTAND what he is doing.

While that sounds great in theory, the golf swing (and that's not to include putting, the short game, etc.) is far too complex for the student to understand everything that could ever happen. And I dare say you can't accuse me, Mike, or Dave of being tight lipped about information. We've probably shared more information than 99.9% of golf instructors out there.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

At some point, however, it would be honest of the INSTRUCTOR to just say to this student ...."Im sorry, but there really isnt anything more I can teach you and youre wasting your money and time seeing me at this point".

A lousy instructor (who doesn't know much about the golf swing) could say that honestly.

I doubt very much a good or great instructor could ever say that to a student. It'd be a lie.

[Harmonious]

Bear in mind that golf is not a constant game.  By that, I mean that, once you know the basics and are hitting the ball well, it is very easy to gradually alter something so that you don't hit it so well.  A good instructor, even after teaching you what you want to know about the swing, can point out flaws that have crept into your game, without your even realizing it.  Even if you don't learn anything new, it is probably a good idea to get a "checkup" once in awhile.

Example:  I was having problems hitting pulls. A pro who is familiar with my game was also on the range at the time I was hitting balls, and he asked "Why are you playing the ball so far forward?"  It took me by surprise, because I had assumed that I had the ball in the right position.  I had gotten lazy over time, and had not really been concentrating on my ball position. Once I moved the ball back in my stance, to where it should have been, I started hitting it straight again.

And remember that golf is a lifetime of learning.  Once you know the basics, maybe you would like to learn how to hit specific shots, like hitting it low into the wind, or hitting it with a slight cut to a front right pin.  These are things where a good instructor can help, and can provide some feedback that a magazine article can't.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

1. Do you make more money from repeat business or the guys who come in for maybe 1 or 2 lessons in any given year?

Any instructor would be looking for a new job within a couple of months, if this were the case. The instructor's rep would be down the toilet and there just aren't enough golfers searching for lessons to go around. Relationship building is a key part of retaining students. There is just too much to learn and the game of golf is so difficult to play, instructors never run out of material. It's the nature of the game. The moment the student start hitting their irons better, they move on to their next priority and want a driver lesson. Then it's the putting stroke. Then bunker play...

...the learning process never ends.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Bear in mind that golf is not a constant game.  By that, I mean that, once you know the basics and are hitting the ball well, it is very easy to gradually alter something so that you don't hit it so well.  A good instructor, even after teaching you what you want to know about the swing, can point out flaws that have crept into your game, without your even realizing it.  Even if you don't learn anything new, it is probably a good idea to get a "checkup" once in awhile.

Example:  I was having problems hitting pulls. A pro who is familiar with my game was also on the range at the time I was hitting balls, and he asked "Why are you playing the ball so far forward?"  It took me by surprise, because I had assumed that I had the ball in the right position.  I had gotten lazy over time, and had not really been concentrating on my ball position. Once I moved the ball back in my stance, to where it should have been, I started hitting it straight again.

And remember that golf is a lifetime of learning.  Once you know the basics, maybe you would like to learn how to hit specific shots, like hitting it low into the wind, or hitting it with a slight cut to a front right pin.  These are things where a good instructor can help, and can provide some feedback that a magazine article can't.

This concept confuses me.

It may be that Im overly analytical to begin with, which I have to keep in check on the golf course because of 'thinking too much' which I can do pretty quickly, but if I start hacking them off into the trees, shouldnt I simply return to my swing that was working well? I mean, isnt that just common sense?

For instance, at the range yesterday I broke out the driver and hit probably a dozen balls that were absolutely beautiful.

And THEN I started over analyzing and popped the next 3 balls into the sky. Straight, but way too high for a driver. I was suddenly getting under the ball and I could see the scuffs on the top of my driver to prove it.

I stopped. Got back into the position that I know has been working and it didnt happen again the whole time out there.

I mean, dont get me wrong, I have gotten awards for my trouble shooting ability in other areas, and maybe its unfair for me to just assume that everyone else is gifted in that area.

Actually the more I think about it, that may be the problem on MY part in this entire discussion. It only generally takes me one time of seeing something done right and I can get it and copy it pretty quickly. After  examining something a few minutes I can start breaking it down into simple processes and understand what makes it tick.

Maybe MY problem is that I just assume that everyone is like that and cant put myself into someone elses shoes who may actually not be able to dissect the golf swing without having someone watching them telling them what they are doing wrong.

I really have to apologize for this entire thread at this point.

Ive been entirely unfair in that my assumptions have caused me to believe that instructors werent needed at all, but I think Ive been forgetting that not everyones brain works the same.

While *I* may dissect everything in life, its not fair of me to assume that everyone else does.

I'll probably stop talking about this because its certainly not my intent to offend anyone and Im starting to think that I probably am.

Sorry :)

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Harmonious  A good instructor, even after teaching you what you want to know about the swing, can point out flaws that have crept into your game, without your even realizing it.  Even if you don't learn anything new, it is probably a good idea to get a "checkup" once in awhile.

Example:  I was having problems hitting pulls. A pro who is familiar with my game was also on the range at the time I was hitting balls, and he asked "Why are you playing the ball so far forward?"  It took me by surprise, because I had assumed that I had the ball in the right position.  I had gotten lazy over time, and had not really been concentrating on my ball position. Once I moved the ball back in my stance, to where it should have been, I started hitting it straight again.

Great example, has nothing to do with how much knowledge you have

Originally Posted by iacas

You have it backwards. The good instructors don't fear giving their students information - they in fact strive to share information - because they know that unless he student spends hundreds or thousands of hours of study, they're not going to suddenly stop needing the instructor.

Just from personal experience I understood a lot about the swing, the structure, geometry, causes and effects etc.  But I still wasn't getting the results or saw the changes I needed to make.  I needed instruction on what I needed to do.  Someone to say don't worry about X,Y and Z, just work on X and this is how you change X.

Originally Posted by iacas

While that sounds great in theory, the golf swing (and that's not to include putting, the short game, etc.) is far too complex for the student to understand everything that could ever happen. And I dare say you can't accuse me, Mike, or Dave of being tight lipped about information. We've probably shared more information than 99.9% of golf instructors out there.

For example

http://thesandtrap.com/f/4088/swing-thoughts

http://www.youtube.com/user/thegolfevolution

http://www.youtube.com/user/mvmac25

http://www.youtube.com/user/iacas

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Let me add really quickly as a last post here int his thread that I change my mind.

I think I completely understand the necessity of instructors/teachers.

After my last post I think I suddenly realized where MY thinking has been faulty here.

I apologize to anyone who may have been offended here and Im certainly going to send an email to that Mclellan gent and let him know that maybe he's being a bit out of line as well.

Thanks for being patient with my arrogance :)

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I really have to apologize for this entire thread at this point.

Ive been entirely unfair in that my assumptions have caused me to believe that instructors werent needed at all, but I think Ive been forgetting that not everyones brain works the same.

While *I* may dissect everything in life, its not fair of me to assume that everyone else does.

I'll probably stop talking about this because its certainly not my intent to offend anyone and Im starting to think that I probably am.

Sorry :)

No need to apologize, this is a golf discussion forum.  No one is offended.  I think you are correct, people are different and some don't want to know a lot.  But even knowing and understanding it can still be difficult to get the motion you're looking for by yourself. Gets into the whole "feel isn't real" discussion.

[canadianpro]

Agreed...no need to apologize. There are millions of golfers out there who think they can "fix it" themselves and usually that is what it is....a "fix". I also agree that Erik, Dave and Mike have shared enormous amounts of theories, videos, swing thoughts etc. In fact, there has been more information posted on this website in the past couple of years than information shared by any of the top instructors. I have been teaching since 1968 and am still learning - that is the great thing about the game. the internet, video analysis that shows us angles have changed the approach to modern day instruction. High speed video has been a huge help in actually seeing what takes place through the impact zone....for those who may be old enough, it is way better than the graph-chek camera I purchased from Irv Scloss in 1975. For those who are not in "that zone" it was a polaroid camera with eight shutters that captured the player at address and hopefully at relevant positions throughout the swing.

I get many repeat lessons...usually in the spring and during the mid-season when troubles seem to occur. It is usually an easy adjustment and one thing I always ask them to do is to measure the triangle formed between the ball and the toes " when they are hitting it pure". Then I ask that they wreite it on a card and put it in the bag...only to be brought out when contact is not good. I also keep a record of these measurements...it is amazing how something so simple can make a difference. All the great players have coaches...it boggles my mind that amateurs suffer because they refuse to take instruction. As said before, if they took half of the money they spend on equipment and put it into lessons, they would be better players of the game.

[Kobey]

Golfs-for-fun, are you sure we weren't separated at birth?  You seem to think almost exactly like I do.  I'm also a troubleshooter.  Anyway, I don't think you have offended anyone.  Your posts have been clear and the questions you ask are valid, at least to another person who is trying to decide whether to take lessons or not.

Originally Posted by canadianpro

Agreed...no need to apologize. There are millions of golfers out there who think they can "fix it" themselves and usually that is what it is....a "fix".

This reminds me of a guy I know.  He has a wicked slice, but instead of finding out what the real problem is, he just adjusts his stance so he is pointing at the woods when he tees off.  Yes, it makes him hit the fairway most of the time, but he loses a lot of distance and when he does hit one straight, it is so far in the jungle Tarzan couldn't find it.  I would really like to see what would happen if he took some lessons to straighten it out.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

The only part of my game that is still rancid  is something youtube isnt going to help much...putting.

I can drop a ball from 150 up onto the green 5 feet from the hole and be playing for birdie and then 3 or even 4 putt.

I used to be a horrible putter too.  People thought I was misreading the green when I hit it two feet to the side of the hole.  In reality, I was aiming at the hole, I just couldn't get it to go straight.  Don't know if you are already doing this or not, but I found a tip online to get over the ball, so that if you dropped a ball from your nose it would hit the one on the green.  Once I started doing that my putting improved dramatically.  I had been standing back too far and couldn't get a good read on the line.  Now I wonder if an instructor would have told me the same thing or something completely different.

[iacas]

I know a conclusion has kind of been reached, but I'm going to respond kind of "in the flow" anyway. I will say as a preface that I agree there's no need to apologize. Thanks for the discussion.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Actually the more I think about it, that may be the problem on MY part in this entire discussion. It only generally takes me one time of seeing something done right and I can get it and copy it pretty quickly. After  examining something a few minutes I can start breaking it down into simple processes and understand what makes it tick.

Maybe MY problem is that I just assume that everyone is like that and cant put myself into someone elses shoes who may actually not be able to dissect the golf swing without having someone watching them telling them what they are doing wrong.

Quite honestly, I doubt that you're as good - in terms of golf, I'm not talking about other areas of life or work or play - at that as you think you are. Maybe you are - maybe you're a golf savant or something - but nobody here knows (correct me if I'm wrong) what scores you shoot or what your swing looks like. If you truly could just "copy it quickly" and you understood things as quickly as you say you do, you'd be playing some really amazing golf by now. No? Still shooting in the 80s? 90s?

Feel isn't real, and again, maybe you're in that some tiny percentage, but the odds are really stacked against you. And that's no fault of your own - I just don't know that you've been around golf long enough to really get what I mean.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I apologize to anyone who may have been offended here and Im certainly going to send an email to that Mclellan gent and let him know that maybe he's being a bit out of line as well.

Thanks for being patient with my arrogance :)

Answered by others, but again, no need to apologize for the discussion.

Originally Posted by canadianpro

All the great players have coaches...it boggles my mind that amateurs suffer because they refuse to take instruction. As said before, if they took half of the money they spend on equipment and put it into lessons, they would be better players of the game.

That's a good point, Peter.

But again, as you would probably agree, 90% or more of the golf instructors out there kinda suck. And of those who live near enough to a 10% or 5% teacher, a lot of golfers don't want to get better. It may just be ignorance - most people would agree that playing better golf is more fun - but golfers think of the 90-95%, they think it'll be "work," they think of the cost... and what they don't think of is the fun they'll have getting better. That's an unknown to them. Getting instruction strikes many people as a RISK with little upside.

That's why bad instructors piss off good instructors. They poison golfers and their perceptions of golf instruction.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Kobey

This reminds me of a guy I know.  He has a wicked slice, but instead of finding out what the real problem is, he just adjusts his stance so he is pointing at the woods when he tees off.  Yes, it makes him hit the fairway most of the time, but he loses a lot of distance and when he does hit one straight, it is so far in the jungle Tarzan couldn't find it.  I would really like to see what would happen if he took some lessons to straighten it out.

I used to be a horrible putter too.  People thought I was misreading the green when I hit it two feet to the side of the hole.  In reality, I was aiming at the hole, I just couldn't get it to go straight.  Don't know if you are already doing this or not, but I found a tip online to get over the ball, so that if you dropped a ball from your nose it would hit the one on the green.  Once I started doing that my putting improved dramatically.  I had been standing back too far and couldn't get a good read on the line.  Now I wonder if an instructor would have told me the same thing or something completely different.

The guy who used to try to teach me way back when is the same as the person you know. He slices like cheap bread but instead of understanding what causes the slice he just aims left and prays for the best.

In just 90 days I not only have gotten to the point where I know what causes the slice, but how to correct it, prevent it and now I can even play a draw any time I want based on how I was doing yesterday at the range. This guy has never improved over 20 years and still plays like he did way back when. 120 is a good day.

I think he's one that lessons would probably be a good idea, but the problem is that hes one of those sorts that doesnt follow directions well at all, so Im not sure if lessons would help if he's not going to DO what an instructor tells him...and he certainly would never even remotely begin to comprehend how and why things work in the golf swing and how it affects ball flight.

One of my putting problems is I havent wanted to let go of my 'first' putter. Its not very good and I realized that the last round we played when I borrowed someone elses putter that was bigger and heavier and had a 3 inch line to line the putter up with. Mine is about 5/8" thick and I found that because of the shorter line was was aiming with it was always aimed just a little left of my intended line. I did start doing better with the borrowed putter and I went out the other day and bought 3 used putters of different sorts from Play it Again Sporting Goods where I bought my Taylor Made driver. Im going to see how I fair with each of those.

Where I REALLY suck is reading the speed of the green...and I dont think a new putter is going to change that.

If the green is really dry I blow past the whole, wet I hit them short every time....which also means if its not perfectly flat and Im putting on any sort of incline that my shots going to be that much further off by the time it gets near the hole.

Granted this little course here has some horrible greens as far as they are built on the side of a cliff half the time.

Im probably going to have to spend a month just working on my putting on different conditions.

Do you have any links to that putting tip ? Id like to check it out if you have one . :-)