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Originally Posted by newtogolf

It's a moot point now since the media got their pound of flesh and Paterno was fired but...

You're making a number of assumptions that may or may not have happened at PSU.    It isn't clear exactly what McQueary said to Paterno - he definitely didn't say he saw a 10 year old being raped by Sandusky, it was more along the lines of the guy was "horseplaying" with the kid in the showers.  Paterno reported it as he was supposed to, and I don't recall anyone claiming they brought additional incidents to Paterno's attention so why would Paterno call the police if his management said it was being investigated?


Sorry, but there is NO WAY JoePa didn't know about the other reported incidents with Sandusky.  This 2002 incident was one of many times Sandusky had been caught.  Sandusky was investigated by university police and State College Police prior to this.  You think Paterno didn't know that?

"horseplay" in a shower with a 10 year old boy - on multiple occassions!!!???  Come on!

Why call the police?  If you have to even ask that question, that is sad...

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I was never a Penn State fan nor am I a college football fan but I knew of Paterno and it seemed he was a great coach and leader of our youth.  I wanted to give Paterno the benefit of the doubt when t

Its absolutely disgusting and yes, Joe needs to go.  For someone who always preached that they win with honor to go and do the absolute minimum that was neccesary to avoid getting into trouble with th

Paterno was given the job about 10 years ago as chief endowment raiser.  His goal was 1 billion.  He raised 1.6 billion.  Annually he gives back a vast majority of his "millions" to the university. I

NewtGolf

"It's a moot point now since the media got their pound of flesh and Paterno was fired but...


You're making a number of assumptions that may or may not have happened at PSU.    It isn't clear exactly what McQueary said to Paterno - he definitely didn't say he saw a 10 year old being raped by Sandusky, it was more along the lines of the guy was "horseplaying" with the kid in the showers.  Paterno reported it as he was supposed to, and I don't recall anyone claiming they brought additional incidents to Paterno's attention so why would Paterno call the police if his management said it was being investigated?

How many times did Michael Jackson sleep in a bed with young boys and no one on his staff called the police?  I don't recall a media lynch mob at his house looking to have the house staff fired and arrested or refusing to report Jackson to the police.   This was a witch hunt to bring down PSU and Paterno by the media and PSU knew it wouldn't stop until they fired Paterno so they caved to the media demands. "

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1.)  This isn't the media's fault.  They are reporting on the scandal...not creating it.  The thought that the media is after Joe PA is cr*p.
2.)  I am not assuming anything.  I read the grand jury report and Paterno's comments.  Did you?
3.)  There was a lot more than "horseplay"...did you see the word "fondling".  What else do you need to know other than grown man in a shower with a 10 yr. old?
4.)  Rape is what occured.  Read the grand jury report.  Sure, maybe McQuery didnt say the word "rape", but this isnt a time for semantics.  Again; naked grown man in a shower with a 10 year old boy was reported.
5.) Yep.  Paterno told his boss and then let it ride.  Nice job...doing the miniumum required.  Obviously, it wasn't good enough as the BOT canned him on a unanimous vote.  As you said...maybe he was "too busy".
6.) To answer your question Paterno should have called police because a 10 yr. old boy was being "fondled" in a shower by a 55-60 yera old man.  Wyy is that so hard to comprehend?  You think Paterno's inaction would have been the same if it was his blood (grandson, nephew, etc?)  me either.
7.)  YOu must not have read newpapers / wathced the news / listened to late night TV during hte MJ scandal.  Fro argument's sake...let's say none of that happened at Jackson's house.  So WHAT!?  Does that somehow remove Paterno's responisbility to do something when he hears a 10 yr. old is being fondled by a 55-60 yr. old on a campus where he is THE MAN?
8.)  I'm glad some adults with perspective tok over at PSU.
--Two final questions:  Why do you think Paterno told Sandusky he was not going to be the HC at PSU and why do you think Sandusky suddenly retired at a relatively young age?  Why do you think Sandusky was told to quit bringing underage kids to campus?

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I should have worded my post more appropriately i.e. better grammar. Someone sent in an email, quoting the scene, and they solemnly talked about how it fit the situation. Mike Greenberg looked like he was fighting back some emotion as he read the line that LCpl. Dawson says to close the clip.

Then again, Greenberg cries when he pours a good bowl of cereal in the morning. ;-) [quote name="newtogolf" url="/t/54187/joe-paterno-and-penn-state/36#post_660031"]It isn't clear exactly what McQueary said to Paterno - he definitely didn't say he saw a 10 year old being raped by Sandusky, it was more along the lines of the guy was "horseplaying" with the kid in the showers.  Paterno reported it as he was supposed to, and I don't recall anyone claiming they brought additional incidents to Paterno's attention so why would Paterno call the police if his management said it was being investigated?[/quote] The more that comes out, the more it seems that McQuery should face repercussions. I don't think that takes Paterno off the hook though. [quote name="newtogolf" url="/t/54187/joe-paterno-and-penn-state/36#post_660031"]How many times did Michael Jackson sleep in a bed with young boys and no one on his staff called the police?  I don't recall a media lynch mob at his house looking to have the house staff fired and arrested or refusing to report Jackson to the police.   This was a witch hunt to bring down PSU and Paterno by the media and PSU knew it wouldn't stop until they fired Paterno so they caved to the media demands.[/quote] Slightly playing devil's advocate here, but that's a pretty different situation. Michael Jackson was the authority figure in his house, while Sandusky was not. Jackson could have fired the people that worked for him, Sandusky I don't think had that authority.

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

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1.)  This isn't the media's fault.  They are reporting on the scandal...not creating it.  The thought that the media is after Joe PA is cr*p.

2.)  I am not assuming anything.  I read the grand jury report and Paterno's comments.  Did you?

3.)  There was a lot more than "horseplay"...did you see the word "fondling".  What else do you need to know other than grown man in a shower with a 10 yr. old?

4.)  Rape is what occured.  Read the grand jury report.  Sure, maybe McQuery didnt say the word "rape", but this isnt a time for semantics.  Again; naked grown man in a shower with a 10 year old boy was reported.

5.) Yep.  Paterno told his boss and then let it ride.  Nice job...doing the miniumum required.  Obviously, it wasn't good enough as the BOT canned him on a unanimous vote.  As you said...maybe he was "too busy".

6.) To answer your question Paterno should have called police because a 10 yr. old boy was being "fondled" in a shower by a 55-60 yera old man.  Wyy is that so hard to comprehend?  You think Paterno's inaction would have been the same if it was his blood (grandson, nephew, etc?)  me either.

7.)  YOu must not have read newpapers / wathced the news / listened to late night TV during hte MJ scandal.  Fro argument's sake...let's say none of that happened at Jackson's house.  So WHAT!?  Does that somehow remove Paterno's responisbility to do something when he hears a 10 yr. old is being fondled by a 55-60 yr. old on a campus where he is THE MAN?

8.)  I'm glad some adults with perspective tok over at PSU.

--Two final questions:  Why do you think Paterno told Sandusky he was not going to be the HC at PSU and why do you think Sandusky suddenly retired at a relatively young age?  Why do you think Sandusky was told to quit bringing underage kids to campus?

  1. I agree, the media didn't create the scandal, they sensationalized it.
  2. Yes I did, and McQueary was not clear to Paterno what he saw, but was troubled by it enough that he decided to report it to Paterno THE NEXT DAY.
  3. PSU is a business, there are business procedures and policies. If McQueary called the police when he saw them in the lockerroom he'd been justified but as a manager or business owner I'm not calling the police on any employees based on an unsubstantiated accusation from a subordinate who didn't think it was important enough to act on until the next day.
  4. Joe didn't know it was rape and he did what he was legally required to, he raised the issue to his management who had both a legal and moral right to pursue it with the police. Should Paterno have done more, maybe, but it's more gray than black and white given he didn't witness it himself, McQueary did nothing when he witnessed it and waited over 24 hours to even mention it, not to mention Sandusky was a highly respected member of his coaching team.
  5. BOT canned him because they want the media to go let up and it was obvious they wouldn't until Paterno was canned.
  6. You're changing facts to make your argument, stick to the facts, it was not Paterno's kid and Paterno didn't witness the act. The fact is Paterno did what he was legally required to do after McQueary reported the incident to him. Why aren't you going after McQueary who didn't have the balls to stop the rape in the shower and beat Sandusky's ass? Why aren't you and the media begging for his head on a platter? Reason is McQueary is a no one and no one is going to read the newspaper about him getting fired.
  7. Once again, the incident was reported to Paterno, he didn't see it. If Paterno saw Sandusky rape a boy and did nothing like McQueary did he'd be as guilty as you want to make him. You don't call the police on someone based on 2nd hand information when there are procedures set in place to handle it. Had he called the police and turned out it was a farce that McQueary had made up, Paterno would be sued. PSU is a business, when you work for a business you act in accordance with established procedures, even if they don't seem to be the moral thing to do.
  8. Adults, maybe. As I've said numerous times, there are plenty of guilty parties here, and Paterno is only one, yet he was the one the media wanted on a platter and they gave the media what they wanted.

Why isn't anyone wondering why the police and DA didn't continue their investigation? Why wasn't Sandusky put in jail? Why was his only punishment to promise not to shower with young boys anymore? Why was he allowed to have these kids in his home after the incident? Why did he and his wife provide foster care to young boys? Why was he allowed to run the kids program after the accusation? Why was he allowed to work at a H.S. around these boys? Where is the DA that went missing? I guess it's all Paterno's fault too.

You all want to blame Paterno but you are missing the point that many people failed these kids and to date based on the information we have, Paterno did nothing legally wrong. All of the attention is on Paterno because he's the biggest name to sell newspapers while the real criminals, scumbags and cowards are barely getting any media attention.



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We're talking about moral obligation as legally Paterno did what he was supposed to but to many that wasn't enough.  If you risk being fired does that remove the moral obligation you have to prevent a man from raping young boys?

My point is not that Paterno was without fault but that Paterno followed the PSU procedures properly, the DA and police commissioner admitted that, they questioned if he morally did enough.  Many other people didn't do the legal, proper or morally right thing here and they are the ones that should be hung in the media, but I hardly hear them mentioned because they don't have the name recognition that Paterno does.

Originally Posted by jamo

Slightly playing devil's advocate here, but that's a pretty different situation. Michael Jackson was the authority figure in his house, while Sandursky was not. Jackson could have fired the people that worked for him, Sandursky I don't think had that authority.



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Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're making a number of assumptions that may or may not have happened at PSU.    It isn't clear exactly what McQueary said to Paterno - he definitely didn't say he saw a 10 year old being raped by Sandusky, it was more along the lines of the guy was "horseplaying" with the kid in the showers.  Paterno reported it as he was supposed to, and I don't recall anyone claiming they brought additional incidents to Paterno's attention so why would Paterno call the police if his management said it was being investigated?

.

Fact: 1998 Jerry was caught with a boy. He was investigated by PSU Campus Police and by extreme surprise to everyone retired prior to the next year. He worked for JoePa at that point.  McQuery's discussion with Joe Pa in 2002 about what he saw was not the first NOTICE JOEPA HAD ABOUT ABUSE....Keeping JoePa around till the end of the year would just exacerbate the situation.

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I agree 100%, the media wasn't going to relent until PSU fired Paterno, so it's done now.  Prior to this week the reason Sandusky retired was because he realized Paterno wasn't going to retire any time soon and he had no desire to just be a coach for the rest of his career.  I don't recall the media questioning his retirement with relation to child molestation charges but have used 20/20 hindsight to bring it back into question.

Hopefully we'll finally get some unbiased investigative reporting and the police will do their jobs to find out who made it possible for Sandusky to stay out of jail and continue to be around these kids for the last 10 years.  If it turns out Paterno helped cover it up or knew more than we are being told I'll be the first to cheer when he's taken away in handcuffs.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Fact: 1998 Jerry was caught with a boy. He was investigated by PSU Campus Police and by extreme surprise to everyone retired prior to the next year. He worked for JoePa at that point.  McQuery's discussion with Joe Pa in 2002 about what he saw was not the first NOTICE JOEPA HAD ABOUT ABUSE....Keeping JoePa around till the end of the year would just exacerbate the situation.



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Originally Posted by newtogolf

How many times did Michael Jackson sleep in a bed with young boys and no one on his staff called the police?  I don't recall a media lynch mob at his house looking to have the house staff fired and arrested or refusing to report Jackson to the police.



I think there is one major difference here.   If one of the school's janitor's saw something going on and reported to his/her supervisor, one would probably be more accepting of their belief that they did what they should do.    They would honestly expect more to believe that the chain of command was taking care of it.     But Paterno is not a low level staff position.   He is in a position of leadership and significant influence, and we fundamentally expect people in that position, at that level, to be more able to fully grasp the magnitude of the situation and the ramifications.   We can, and should, expect people in such a leadership position to accept a personal responsibility to ensure that the situation is fully and properly dealt with.   It is simply being accountable to their position in life.

Paterno was paid many millions for his position and was afforded cult-like status in his community - all things far and above what we expect from the common man.    And we should similarly expect more from them in a situation like this as well.

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Originally Posted by Clambake

Paterno was paid many millions for his position and was afforded cult-like status in his community - all things far and above what we expect from the common man.    And we should similarly expect more from them in a situation like this as well.

Paterno was given the job about 10 years ago as chief endowment raiser.  His goal was 1 billion.  He raised 1.6 billion.  Annually he gives back a vast majority of his "millions" to the university. I have been very clear, JoePa had to go......But in so many ways that man held integrity and righteousness far beyond normal.  His achilles ultimately is the man that most singlehandedly created the football success of JoePa.  It is a very sad time for everyone involved. But when our most precious asset is involved we all need to go above and beyond.

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From Penn State to the State Pen...
Like most of you I've been watching and reading about this horrific tragedy since it first hit the papers and the airwaves.  Who sometimes gets shunted aside in our collective outrage about the lack of morals of the perpetrators, associates, and those who for years swept this under the rug along with their consciences, are the victims. We'll probably never know how many there are and how this will affect them for the rest of their lives. Defending anyone involved, including Joe Paterno, shows a lack of understanding as to WHY people are upset.  The PSU President, Head Coach, etc., are supposed to be ROLE MODELS.  If they can't be counted upon to show the common decency involved necessary to prevent crimes against our youth by confrontation with those committing the atrocities or reporting such to the proper authorities (NOT internal authorities) then they show an astounding lack of morals and thus shouldn't be allowed to be a part of any organization that supposedly has respect for others and a code to do the right thing.  Maybe when the Penn State students who have been protesting the ouster of Joe Paterno have children of their own they will finally realize that the fact that JoePa was a good coach is tremendously overshadowed by the fact that he knew about this for a decade or more and didn't bother to speak out, thinking solely of his team, his school, and his colleagues, many of whom are complicit in this crime against children.
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Again I don't disagree, but everyone is making the assumption that Paterno didn't follow up with his management.  If Paterno went to his superiors and asked for an update and was told a legal investigation was being conducted why would he be expected to do more?  I don't know that he asked, but you and the media don't know that he didn't.  Last time I checked it was innocent until proven guilty.

My problem with this entire situation is Paterno is being tried in the court of public opinion based on assumptions not facts.  If it turns out that he was involved in the cover up then he deserves to go to jail, no question.

Originally Posted by Clambake

I think there is one major difference here.   If one of the school's janitor's saw something going on and reported to his/her supervisor, one would probably be more accepting of their belief that they did what they should do.    They would honestly expect more to believe that the chain of command was taking care of it.     But Paterno is not a low level staff position.   He is in a position of leadership and significant influence, and we fundamentally expect people in that position, at that level, to be more able to fully grasp the magnitude of the situation and the ramifications.   We can, and should, expect people in such a leadership position to accept a personal responsibility to ensure that the situation is fully and properly dealt with.   It is simply being accountable to their position in life.

Paterno was paid many millions for his position and was afforded cult-like status in his community - all things far and above what we expect from the common man.    And we should similarly expect more from them in a situation like this as well.



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I don't want to joke about a terrible situation, but I posed on Twitter earlier about how this is going to be made into an episode of Law and Order SVU at some point, but the more I think about it, this would be an absolutely epic episode. In addition to the fall of one of college football's biggest names, there's the possible child molesting ring that Sandusky was involved with, and the missing/presumed dead DA would be the cherry on top.
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Watch the movie Sleepers with DeNiro, Brad Pitt and Kevin Bacon.  It dealt with a guards in a boys home sexually abusing the kids there.  Not a fun movie to watch, but similar overtones to what Sandusky is accused of.

Originally Posted by jamo

I don't want to joke about a terrible situation, but I posed on Twitter earlier about how this is going to be made into an episode of Law and Order SVU at some point, but the more I think about it, this would be an absolutely epic episode. In addition to the fall of one of college football's biggest names, there's the possible child molesting ring that Sandursky was involved with, and the missing/presumed dead DA would be the cherry on top.



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Mark May and Barry Switzer made some valid points about how Sandusky has been there for 30 years and no one noticed anything. I mean there is no way this guy woke up one day at age 50 and said I think I'm going to start molesting young boys. I'm guessing as this goes further the list will get longer a long with the time frame it was happening.

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Originally Posted by clubchamp

Mark May and Barry Switzer made some valid points about how Sandusky has been there for 30 years and no one noticed anything. I mean there is no way this guy woke up one day at age 50 and said I think I'm going to start molesting young boys. I'm guessing as this goes further the list will get longer a long with the time frame it was happening.


Good points. I prefer to hear from the analysts/Football guys who came thru the PSU system.  Matt Millen did.  In the very first catching of JoePa, in this situation, he blurted out that Jerry "fooled a lot of people including many professionals"  It will come out that Jerry was being given professional help for his disease.

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Newtgolf:

1.I agree, the media didn't create the scandal, they sensationalized it.
2.Yes I did, and McQueary was not clear to Paterno what he saw, but was troubled by it enough that he decided to report it to Paterno THE NEXT DAY.
3.PSU is a business, there are business procedures and policies. If McQueary called the police when he saw them in the lockerroom he'd been justified but as a manager or business owner I'm not calling the police on any employees based on an unsubstantiated accusation from a subordinate who didn't think it was important enough to act on until the next day.
4.Joe didn't know it was rape and he did what he was legally required to, he raised the issue to his management who had both a legal and moral right to pursue it with the police. Should Paterno have done more, maybe, but it's more gray than black and white given he didn't witness it himself, McQueary did nothing when he witnessed it and waited over 24 hours to even mention it, not to mention Sandusky was a highly respected member of his coaching team.
5.BOT canned him because they want the media to go let up and it was obvious they wouldn't until Paterno was canned.
6.You're changing facts to make your argument, stick to the facts, it was not Paterno's kid and Paterno didn't witness the act. The fact is Paterno did what he was legally required to do after McQueary reported the incident to him. Why aren't you going after McQueary who didn't have the balls to stop the rape in the shower and beat Sandusky's ass? Why aren't you and the media begging for his head on a platter? Reason is McQueary is a no one and no one is going to read the newspaper about him getting fired.
7.Once again, the incident was reported to Paterno, he didn't see it. If Paterno saw Sandusky rape a boy and did nothing like McQueary did he'd be as guilty as you want to make him. You don't call the police on someone based on 2nd hand information when there are procedures set in place to handle it. Had he called the police and turned out it was a farce that McQueary had made up, Paterno would be sued. PSU is a business, when you work for a business you act in accordance with established procedures, even if they don't seem to be the moral thing to do.
8.Adults, maybe. As I've said numerous times, there are plenty of guilty parties here, and Paterno is only one, yet he was the one the media wanted on a platter and they gave the media what they wanted.

Why isn't anyone wondering why the police and DA didn't continue their investigation? Why wasn't Sandusky put in jail? Why was his only punishment to promise not to shower with young boys anymore? Why was he allowed to have these kids in his home after the incident? Why did he and his wife provide foster care to young boys? Why was he allowed to run the kids program after the accusation? Why was he allowed to work at a H.S. around these boys? Where is the DA that went missing? I guess it's all Paterno's fault too.

You all want to blame Paterno but you are missing the point that many people failed these kids and to date based on the information we have, Paterno did nothing legally wrong. All of the attention is on Paterno because he's the biggest name to sell newspapers while the real criminals, scumbags and cowards are barely getting any media
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1.)  What do you expect the media to do?  Send out a few blurbs....talk about it in passing?  This notion that the media is in anyway to blame for Paterno's and or PSU's inaction is sophistry.
2.) Yep.  And Paterno did the bare minimum.  The bare minimum after hearing of a grown man being in a shower with a 10 yr. old where he was "fondling" "horseplay"  "touching".  Like you said, THE MAN on campus was 'too busy' being THE MAN and did the bare minimum.  Well, reason says when you hear of a grown man in ta shower with a 10 yr. old and "fondling" "horseplay"  "touching" the time for the bare minimum is over.  For that inaction THE MAN on campus is no longer.  Additionally, for that inaction one could argue that Sandusky was allowed to keep on molesting.
3.) PSU is a business.  Yeah, so what?  That in no way lessens the responisbility of adults to stop grown men in a shower with a 10yr. old  "fondling" "horseplay"  "touching".  You telling us that if a subordinate of yours comes in to tell you a colleague was in a shower with a 10 yr. old  "fondling" "horseplay"  "touching" that you would just kick it up to your boss and let it ride?  If so, then you are part of the problem.
The venue of  "fondling" "horseplay"  "touching".  is completely irrelevant.  Does it matter to that 10 yr. old if he is in a business or not while getting  "fondling" "horseplay"  "touching". ?
4.) Yep, he did the bare minimum.  And he and those that did the bare minimum are no longer at PSU,,,,thankfully.  And no,,Sandusky had already retired under murky circumstances.... "highly respected" at that time he was far from.
5.)  BOT canned him because he was in a position of power with a lot of responsibility and only did the bare minimum.
6.)  Not changing facts.  Asking a reasonable question.  It's telling you didnt answer.
7.) You keep harping on PSU being a business.  GEt this:  when it comes to grown men  "fondling" "horseplay"  "touching" 10 year olds; being a business is completely irrelevant.
8.) Paterno was talked aout most bcasue of who he was.  "the face of the program".  Too bad for him.  With power comes responsibility.

RE the investigation...it IS continuing.  Notice Paterno has hired a criminal defense attorney.
RE Sandusky being free....good question.  Why in the world was he still on campus as late as last week?  More fuel to the PSU irresponsibility.  BTW, I beleive much more will come, and it won't be good news.
As to your Paterno fault...YES...he sure as hell should feel some guilt about doiong the bare minimum.  He had the ability, the opportunity adn the power to DO something....and we all know what he did do....the bare minimum.  Paterno's words are very telling.  'he will do everything in his power to help the University'....yep,,,that is what he did...meanwhile Sandusky continued to prowl.

I want to blame Paterno AND Sandusky, AND the AD AND Mcquery AND the VP AND whover else was told about Sandusky molesting kids and doing hte bare minimum.  Your infatuation with who gets media coverage does not minimize Paterno's failings.  Your infatuation with Paterno doing what he was legally required to do does not either.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

I agree 100%, the media wasn't going to relent until PSU fired Paterno, so it's done now.  Prior to this week the reason Sandusky retired was because he realized Paterno wasn't going to retire any time soon and he had no desire to just be a coach for the rest of his career.  I don't recall the media questioning his retirement with relation to child molestation charges but have used 20/20 hindsight to bring it back into question.

Hopefully we'll finally get some unbiased investigative reporting and the police will do their jobs to find out who made it possible for Sandusky to stay out of jail and continue to be around these kids for the last 10 years.  If it turns out Paterno helped cover it up or knew more than we are being told I'll be the first to cheer when he's taken away in handcuffs.



WE already know that answer.  Spanier, Curley, Paterno and McQuery.  Thare are probably more,,,but that is a start.

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Quote:

Last time I checked it was innocent until proven guilty.



Not with sexual abuse cases involving children. IMO it's then "guilty even if proven innocent".

It's understandable that people are greatly upset by such accusations but they will rarely wait until they have as many facts as possible before casting stones. They also do not stop casting stones even if a person is found to be innocent or wrongly accused. In Sandusky's case I don't think there is much doubt but I still haven't seen anything that says Paterno was trying to cover things up. Hopefully it comes out that he was manipulated by the superiors but only time and investigation may tell. I think the public has already cast their opinion so he is most likely screwed for the rest of his life. Given Paterno's track record I think he at least deserves, not the benefit of the doubt, but at least the holdout of hope that he didn't try to cover it up.

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