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Joe Paterno and Penn State


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I was never a Penn State fan nor am I a college football fan but I knew of Paterno and it seemed he was a great coach and leader of our youth.  I wanted to give Paterno the benefit of the doubt when t

Its absolutely disgusting and yes, Joe needs to go.  For someone who always preached that they win with honor to go and do the absolute minimum that was neccesary to avoid getting into trouble with th

Paterno was given the job about 10 years ago as chief endowment raiser.  His goal was 1 billion.  He raised 1.6 billion.  Annually he gives back a vast majority of his "millions" to the university. I

I'd say it is far from moot. And it is far from over. There are multiple investigations and it is likely that much more will be brought to light, including what and when everyone knew, or should have known, what was going on. It will get even uglier and more and more people will be punished. It is far from over for Paterno simply because he was fired. I predict that in the end, even the PSU fans who rioted in support of Paterno will come to see their support as misplaced.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Guess we can all agree to disagree, Paterno was fired so it's all moot anyway.



moot |moōt| adjective subject to debate, dispute, or uncertainty, and typically not admitting of a final decision : whether the temperature rise was mainly due to the greenhouse effect was a moot point . having no practical significance, typically because the subject is too uncertain to allow a decision : it is moot whether this phrase should be treated as metaphor or not.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

Last time I checked it was innocent until proven guilty.


Yes, it is.   In a court of law.    Regarding Sandusky, it is important that he be afforded that right and be properly tried in a court of law with the prosecution having to prove its case.   To interfere with that right undermines the basic principles of our criminal justice system.

But with Paterno, the actions taken have nothing to do with our court of law.   For public opinion, we can and do have the freedom to judge to a different standard.   And with people who are held highly as role models and have great responsibility, it is important that we hold them to a higher standard.    For such positions, even the appearance of impropriety can be enough to undermine what that position is supposed to stand for.

A few years ago, I had to fire the CFO of my company because he did a couple things that were not fully proper.  Not illegal or frankly even against SEC or FASB rules, but still not the proper thing to do.   If he were a low level accountant, he would have been reprimanded and put on a probationary period.    But as a CFO, he has to serve as a outstanding example for all our employees, and I could not let these transgressions go even with discipline.   He simply had to be let go, and removing him gave all our employees a very clear understanding what I stood for as the head of the company and how we expected them to act when faced with a moral dilemma.

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Not with sexual abuse cases involving children. IMO it's then "guilty even if proven innocent".

No, it isn't and even though the crimes may be heinous it still needs to stay that way.

In the mid-eighties I lived in Manhattan Beach, a beach community in Los Angeles, and a child molestation case involving the McMartin Preschool shocked and rocked the area (and the whole country).    Children testified that they had been molested by numerous employees of the preschool, up to and including Virginia McMartin, the grandmother owner of the school.    Eventually it was learned that the one kid had made up the initial allegation which was them piled on to by the police and prosecutors, using tactics that are now understood to not be the proper way to deal with kids in such a situation.   Those tactics swept other kids into the allegations to the point that it was believed there was a large satanic cult preying on preschoolers throughout the region.

The end result was that many fine people's lives were completely ruined, they were financially destroyed, and the stresses it placed on them caused deep health problems.  The witch hunt didn't only affect those at the McMartin school - it impacted everyone who was involved with the care of young children at other day care and preschools as they were all under suspicion.   The collateral damage was extensive, and the situation made the Salem witch hunt trials seem like a minor misunderstanding.      All because the original suspects were treated as guilty - by authorities and the public - long before the facts came out.

Even though sexual molestation of children is so egregious that we may we need to apply a different standard and suspend the accused' rights, we cannot walk down that path.   Where is the line drawn?   To the family that has just had a loved one murdered, it seems that the murderer should no be presumed innocent.   To the person who has been raped, the feeling would be the same.   Even someone who's home was simply burglarized could feel that the criminal deserves no rights and should be dealt with swiftly and harshly.    But anytime we start feeling that there should be an exception to our fundamental right of fair trial through a strict adherence to presumed innocence, we start to fall down a slippery slope from which there is no recovery.

With Penn State, it may seem to many that the priorities are backwards.    A fine and distinguished coach has been the lightening rod in this situation and has lost his job because of how he acted, even though it was fully within the law.    And the accused child molester has almost taken a back seat in the drama that has unfolded.     But that is really how it should be at this time.

It was important for the University to act immediately and show what they stand for to all their faculty, students, and alumni.   These actions show to all the example that acting properly and morally does not mean simply what is required legally; this reinforcement of moral behavior is enormously powerful as that behavior is what guides society through 99% of its actions.    And it is equally important to ensure that the justice system operates properly and the accused be afforded the presumption of innocence and the right of fair trial, and that the accused should not be tried in a court of public opinion at this time so that his rights are preserved for that trial.    That is the foundation for a legal system that addresses the other 1% who failed the societal norms.

As disturbing as this whole escapade is, I find a certain fascination watching the events unfold.    It is almost a good versus evil morality play unfolding before our eyes, with numerous examples illustrating the boundaries of right and wrong, morality versus legality - all topics which stir deep passions in all of us - and then all of this is wrapped into a college football backstory, another area that stirs passions.    The authors of classic literature through the ages couldn't write it better.

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Good post Clambake.

As someone who has served in management myself, I can not understand how Penn State acted as it did. For an allegation of a sexual nature between consenting adults, I've seen an executive team assembled "instantly" and HR and legal experts brought in to make sure the organization is protected. I have served on the board of an organization that serves abused and neglected children. I know that executive board would have sought someone expert to see the allegations through and would have made sure his charity did the same. Reports would have been filed. Butts would have been covered. Even if we thought the allegations were baseless, it would have been handled professionally and carefully. Aside from being what decent people do, it is the only thing that makes "business" sense.

The people involved at PSU were smart enough to know how to handle this or at least smart enough to know they needed council. They would have called an HR specialist and possibly a lawyer if the person in the shower was a 25 year old employee and everyone agreed it was conceptual. So what made them act in a manner that seems to be against their own self-preservation? I think we will get answers, possibly awful answers, that explain why people who did know better, still did nothing.

This story is going to be a big and ugly sore that just will not heal. This will get much worse before it even starts to look a bit better. And because of the nature of the crime, simply firing people and letting them resign will not make it go away.

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http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201111/another-era-and-another-sport-sex-abuse-scandal-still-inflicting-pain-today

It's very easy to be a monday morning quarterback....Quite candidly none of that makes any difference.  Penn State has been a proud storied program. So many from programs that have had NCAA difficulties are so very happy right now.  What ultimately is gonna come out is a very ego driven secretive attempt to manage Jerry with counseling vs dropping him on the police's doorsteps.  The most specific blame should be and ultimately will be the President.  Everyone I speak to and have spoken to prior to this has little if any respect for him.  Like so many situations, many allow someone else to initiate the hard battle....If no one comes forward to initiate that battle then everyone says "It's not my fault".  Penn State will clean house of everyone who had any knowledge and didn't initiate that hard battle.  They will come out stronger for that.  It is so very sad for the youths.

I attached a clip regarding the Red Sox. What I find amazing is I was a partial season ticket holder at the end of that story.  I had never heard about this.  Similar to the Penn State story is the misguided protection of an individual that was too sick to warrant that protection.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

Guess we can all agree to disagree, Paterno was fired so it's all moot anyway.



It's not moot.  It's gonna get worse.

It's too bad you don't see his culpability here. Put it this way.....I hope yo uare never in a position where children's well being is at stake...as from what you have posted you don't know how to make a basic right decision and seem to think the venue of molestation determines how it is dealt with.  You alos seem to think the bare minimum is enough and being too busy is an excuse when it comes to molestaion of a 10 yr. old.

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I first read that Paterno is innocent here: Fallout from Sandusky abuse case brings Paterno into question . It states that attorneys familiar with the ongoing court case of former Penn State football defensive coordinator Gerald Arthur “Jerry” Sandusky have noted that head coach Joe Paterno may not face criminal charges for reporting Sandusky’s alleged sexual abuse of an underage boy to the school’s athletic director instead of authorities. According to the attorneys’ interpretation of related child abuse statutes, the legendary Coach Paterno, 84, is “an innocent bystander”. Now, as stated by the New York Times, Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly has officially pronounced that Joe Paterno is not a target in the ongoing Sandusky investigation. Paterno had announced that he would retire at the end of the current season, but the Penn State board of trustees fired him, instead.

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Ugh, that's so lame. I predicted their exact formation too during the timeout: two receiver set, 1 TE, 1 FB. I-form. So obvious.

OK, I think i've made enough posts in a row on this thread....

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I was praying for a Hook and lateral there on the final drive, but they kept using two receiver sets. I guess you can do it out of that formation if you send the RB out on a route, but... oh well.

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Even if he did nothing illegal he was far from innocent.

Anyone that even tries to defend him just stop.  He knew what McQueary saw and did not report it to the police immediately.  He saw the guy on campus with Children after that and continued to do nothing.  I don't care what the AD or anyone else at Penn State said to him, he should have called the police and reported it when he realized his "superiors" were not going to do anything.

Should he have been fired? I don't really know, he has been used as a scape goat during this whole situation and the attention has been solely on him even though there is plenty of blame to go around.   I certainly don't feel a bit sorry for him though.

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Go back and read my posts, I never argued guilt or innocence, I argued that he was the target of the media regardless of whether he was guilty or innocent.  I'm a business owner, I approach things logically and what's in the best interest of the business and individuals.  Here's the simplified version since everyone thinks I'm a cold hearted kid hating individual.

  1. McQueary witnessed the crime, he was morally and lawfully obligated to report the crime to the police.  Not only did he act as a coward and not stop the act, but he didn't call the police.  In my book he's total scum and should be the one fired and hung in the court of public opinion, but instead he's protected as a "whistle blower".
  2. McQueary chose to wait 24 hours to call Paterno, not the police.  Paterno had an obligation to report this to his management and allow them to handle it.  Understand had McQueary not been a coward, this would have never touched Paterno.  McQueary offered no proof on the call to Paterno it was just his word against Sandusky's.  Paterno wasn't in a position to act on it without consulting his management, he's a football coach on the org chart.
  3. Paterno reported this to the AD and President who assured him it would be handled, this is why he met his "minimal" obligation by law given the circumstances.  If he didn't report it, he's a criminal too.
  4. If an employee reports witnessing another employee committing a crime and informs me, I as CEO and owner have the responsibility to call the police, not the employee.  If I fail to do my job, I deserve to go to jail.  PSU's president and AD should go to jail if it's proven Sandusky is guilty of what he's accused of.  Paterno met his obligation and followed the process PSU created for such incidents.
  5. We have no idea what the President or AD told Paterno was being done with the information he provided from McQueary - for all we know Paterno could be involved in the cover up or he could have been lied to.  You can't fire the employee for my failure or unwillingness to do my job until you PROVE the employee did something wrong.

Without all the facts, Paterno was tried and convicted in the press, his career and legacy destroyed.  It could be rightfully so, and he deserves all of this and more, but none of us will know for sure.  Paterno's firing isn't going to change those poor kids lives and Sandusky was already arrested so there was no future threat to any children.  From my position it appears PSU caved to the press and the lynch mobs that wanted Paterno fired.  I have yet to read or hear anything from the DA or Police Commissioner that states Paterno had broken any laws.   Am I the only one that finds it coincidental that once Paterno was fired, PSU and the horrible tragedy is off the back page of newspapers and isn't the lead story of every news broadcast.  In fact last night all I heard was they lost, interesting, ESPN was more concerned if Lucks poor play last night would cost him the Heisman - what about those poor kids they were so worried about earlier in the week?

For the record, I could care less about PSU or Paterno, but I find it quite disturbing how much power we've given to the press in this country that we could destroy a persons legacy without a shred of proof.  If Sandusky is found guilty and the DA is able to provide evidence that Paterno was involved in the cover up I'll be watching and cheering when they take him off in handcuffs to jail because what was allegedly done to those kids was horrible and disgusting.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

It's not moot.  It's gonna get worse.

It's too bad you don't see his culpability here. Put it this way.....I hope yo uare never in a position where children's well being is at stake...as from what you have posted you don't know how to make a basic right decision and seem to think the venue of molestation determines how it is dealt with.  You alos seem to think the bare minimum is enough and being too busy is an excuse when it comes to molestaion of a 10 yr. old.



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I went to the game and man does PSU need a QB in the worst way and how does a walk on end up starting at a major D1 school? He misses a lot of wide open guys like he's afraid to make any type of a risky throw which he might be coached to go for shorter sure thing. Nebraska offense is also in need of some work because it basically like having 2 RBs on every play but I will say when they did throw their WRs dropped a lot of passes. Both D's looked really good like I expected but I said to my buddy when PSU missed a field goal that it would be a factor. Now as for the crowd it was ok but it was a little odd because everyone was being overly nice to all the Nebraska fans. All of them were saying thanks for coming, we hope you have a good time, and good luck today. It was just weird because I've been to several psu games so I know what usually happens but I understand why they were being supportive. I'm not a fan of either team but you could see after the game that no one knew exactly what to say or do especially the nebraska fans.

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Originally Posted by clubchamp

I went to the game and man does PSU need a QB in the worst way and how does a walk on end up starting at a major D1 school? He misses a lot of wide open guys like he's afraid to make any type of a risky throw which he might be coached to go for shorter sure thing. Nebraska offense is also in need of some work because it basically like having 2 RBs on every play but I will say when they did throw their WRs dropped a lot of passes. Both D's looked really good like I expected but I said to my buddy when PSU missed a field goal that it would be a factor. Now as for the crowd it was ok but it was a little odd because everyone was being overly nice to all the Nebraska fans. All of them were saying thanks for coming, we hope you have a good time, and good luck today. It was just weird because I've been to several psu games so I know what usually happens but I understand why they were being supportive. I'm not a fan of either team but you could see after the game that no one knew exactly what to say or do especially the nebraska fans.

Were you there for the ceremony and prayer?  That was very emotional on TV.  The #2 QB Bolden was a very highly recruited kid.  He just plays slightly worse than McGowin.  And Penn State has never been known as a QB school...RB's and LB's. Would have loved to have been there. Also the QB coach Jay Paterno!!!!!!!and the walk on is a fav of Bradley as much as the other is a fav of Jay!!! so Bradley was committed to playing McGowin the whole game.  That was a first as the two QB's have split time all the other games....

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