Joe Paterno and Penn State

[inthehole]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Cal Tech had a seemingly minor violation where student athletes weren't officially registered for class at the start of their athletics; it's simply how their system works where students "shop" classes for the first 3 weeks at the start of the academic year before they're officially registered in specific classes.     Cal Tech discovered this on their own and raised it to the NCAA.   No harm of any kind, but it is against the letter of the NCAA law.

PSU engaged in one of the most heinous scandals involving top leaders in the university and athletic program, engaging in a systematic cover up of child molestation in a blatant flaunting of basic ethics, clear university rules, NCAA bylaws, and even fundamental human decency, with serious criminal implications for a number who were involved.    When faced with mounting evidence, PSU officials repeatedly denied any knowledge and actively worked to cover up the facts.

And so the NCAA, in their infinite wisdom, did the following to both:

Vacated win/loss records:    Cal Tech.....check                PSU.....check

Probation:                            Cal Tech.....3 years              PSU.....4 years

Post-season bowls:             Cal Tech.....denied               PSU.....denied

Scholaships:                        Cal Tech....don't have          PSU....20 scholarships (from 85) cut

Fine:                                    Cal Tech...none                    PSU....$60M, about 1 year's profit from the football team

Comparing the severity and impact of the two universities' violations, it really doesn't feel the NCAA pulled out much of a hammer on PSU.   The penalties of vacating records, post-season ineligibility, probation, etc. are pretty similar in these two cases.   They did levy a fairly large fine on PSU, essentially validating that they really are only about the money.     I'm only hoping criminal charges are forthcoming and very thorough, and the many Sandusky victims are lucky enough to get the most talented litigation attorneys in the land and they take the university leadership and Trustees for everything they've got.

why dont they just close the doors and shut the place down for good.    From the tone of these posts, I doubt that would even please everyone ....

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by inthehole

why dont they just close the doors and shut the place down for good.    From the tone of these posts, I doubt that would even please everyone ....

No, I think you're misinterpreting my post and the tone of what I was trying to inject.     In my comparison with Cal Tech, I was basically just showing the NCAA's actions weren't all that dissimilar for two enormously different violations.   Basically, the only substantive difference is the $60M fine, and although that's certainly not trivial it really is only a year's worth of the football program's profits.

It is interesting that whereas it took years for the NCAA to investigate things like the Reggie Bush issue, they acted very quickly here with PSU which is probably driven by political need rather than truly digging in an addressing the underlying problem here.    The NCAA could have investigated thoroughly and come through with real impacts for change on how the leadership works here (kind of like the Federal Consent Decree with the LAPD years ago), but by quickly hitting with the usual little toolbox of sanctions they are able to wash their hands of it now and not be looked to for further action - it's now someone else' problem.

Also, please note that in my wish for successful litigation, I didn't say they should take down PSU but instead only those who were really behind the coverup.   The university leadership should not be let off easy, and I'm hopeful their personal lives are severely damaged as those of Sandusky's victims have been.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Clambake

No, I think you're misinterpreting my post and the tone of what I was trying to inject.     In my comparison with Cal Tech, I was basically just showing the NCAA's actions weren't all that dissimilar for two enormously different violations.   Basically, the only substantive difference is the $60M fine, and although that's certainly not trivial it really is only a year's worth of the football program's profits.

It is interesting that whereas it took years for the NCAA to investigate things like the Reggie Bush issue, they acted very quickly here with PSU which is probably driven by political need rather than truly digging in an addressing the underlying problem here.    The NCAA could have investigated thoroughly and come through with real impacts for change on how the leadership works here (kind of like the Federal Consent Decree with the LAPD years ago), but by quickly hitting with the usual little toolbox of sanctions they are able to wash their hands of it now and not be looked to for further action - it's now someone else' problem.

Also, please note that in my wish for successful litigation, I didn't say they should take down PSU but instead only those who were really behind the coverup.   The university leadership should not be let off easy, and I'm hopeful their personal lives are severely damaged as those of Sandusky's victims have been.

I see your point, but I don't think it's really a fair comparison.  Caltech doesn't offer scholarships, their teams suck so they don't have a postseason to be banned from, and they don't ever win any games so there is really nothing to vacate.  The NCAA's "punishment" of Caltech comes across to me as them trying to stay consistent.  If they had done nothing to Caltech, then what happens when they find out next year that Kentucky's star point guard wasn't enrolled in classes when the won the National Championship?  Kentucky could argue that since it was the same offense, they deserve the same punishment.

And the 60 mil punishment is nothing, but the loss of scholarships is a huge deal.  You combine those lost scholarships with the fact that the stigma left behind by Sandusky/Paterno is going to drive kids to other schools, and you have, I believe, a de facto death penalty.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're giving JoePa way too much credit.  JoePa was relevant because of his longevity at PSU and the records as coach of PSU.  Now that he's passed,  his wins from 1998-2011 vacated (removing him from discussions of coaches with most wins) and the scandal tied to his name I doubt there will be many references made about him in any sort of positive light during PSU telecasts.

It's not unfair to Paterno, I don't get how you don't see the severity of his role in the coverup and that if he was alive he'd be facing criminal prosecution.  I suggest you go visit a charity that deals with abused kids and get a first hand view of what these kids go through, because you're coming off as very unsensitive to the victims in your persistent defense of JoePa.

Quote:

How did you draw the conclusion that I don't see the severity?

I appreciate that last statement in bold. It confirms what is obvious about many here. There is this blatant self-gratifying indignation going on. Anyone who disagrees that Joe Pa should not be hung by the balls is being insensitive to the victims.

This idea that affording just treatment even to those culpable shows carelessness towards the victim is absolutely stupid. Not only is that immoral in on itself, it does not follow any line of logic.

In any case, the reason why I raised the point that taking away the wins may not have been the correct punishment was because this scandal says nothing about Joe Pa's actual coaching abilities. So the punishment does not fit the crime.

[newtogolf]

The point being made by the NCAA is that Paterno's involvement in the coverup began in 1998.  Given we don't know the full details of Paterno's involvement in covering for Sandusky prior to 1998, it's possible that Paterno could have been removed as coach and not been in a position to win those games with PSU had the investigation occurred then.

The victims deserve justice, not just from Sandusky, but from everyone involved in the coverup that allowed Sandusky to continue to molest children from 1998 - present.   At this point in time no one cares about Paterno's coaching ability or record, he failed Sandusky's victims.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

How did you draw the conclusion that I don't see the severity?

I appreciate that last statement in bold. It confirms what is obvious about many here. There is this blatant self-gratifying indignation going on. Anyone who disagrees that Joe Pa should not be hung by the balls is being insensitive to the victims.

This idea that affording just treatment even to those culpable shows carelessness towards the victim is absolutely stupid. Not only is that immoral in on itself, it does not follow any line of logic.

In any case, the reason why I raised the point that taking away the wins may not have been the correct punishment was because this scandal says nothing about Joe Pa's actual coaching abilities. So the punishment does not fit the crime.

[inthehole]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

At this point in time no one cares about Paterno's coaching ability or record, he failed Sandusky's victims.

As a long time PA resident, I can assure you more than a few people care about his coaching ability AND record.     There are a heckuva lot more young men in his 46 years as head coach that he guided in their formative years at Penn State, making them into the people they went on to become.      This seems to have been totally forgotten.       I can't believe no one seems to be able to separate his coaching career from this Sandusky debacle.     As I've said repeatedly, I don't condone whatever coverup happened, but fergodssake people, give the man his due.    He earned it.

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by inthehole

As a long time PA resident, I can assure you more than a few people care about his coaching ability AND record.     There are a heckuva lot more young men in his 46 years as head coach that he guided in their formative years at Penn State, making them into the people they went on to become.      This seems to have been totally forgotten.       I can't believe no one seems to be able to separate his coaching career from this Sandusky debacle.     As I've said repeatedly, I don't condone whatever coverup happened, but fergodssake people, give the man his due.    He earned it.

He did earn it and with one bad mistake it all came down just like it would for every other person. Joe Paterno was a man not a king that's where I think some people get confused. Penn State will move forward but Paterno's legacy won't or at least that's the goal of the NCAA and based on PSU accepting the penalties I think they want to move on from him. The other thing I think people fail to realize if JoePA was still a live he'd most likely be going to jail. I'm not saying he wasn't a good coach but at the end of the day he's no more of a man than you or I so why should he be able to do something so wrong yet only be remembered for the good?

[bwdial]

The message that the NCAA is sending is clear; you cannot win enough games, nor graduate enough players to allow something like this to go on.

Period.

[darkhunter139]

What happens with the 60 million dollars that they got fined?

[jamo]

What happens with the 60 million dollars that they got fined?

Donated to aid children that have been abused.

[ktrip]

Originally Posted by clubchamp

He did earn it and with one bad mistake it all came down just like it would for every other person. Joe Paterno was a man not a king that's where I think some people get confused. Penn State will move forward but Paterno's legacy won't or at least that's the goal of the NCAA and based on PSU accepting the penalties I think they want to move on from him. The other thing I think people fail to realize if JoePA was still a live he'd most likely be going to jail. I'm not saying he wasn't a good coach but at the end of the day he's no more of a man than you or I so why should he be able to do something so wrong yet only be remembered for the good?

If you can find the facts that prove this, then yes,  he probably would be. But the FACTS, not speculation, have not shown that he covered up child sexual abuse. In 1998, after the incident where Sandusky showered with a child, it was reported to the Department of Welfare. They investigated, and they had concluded that no child abuse had occurred. So there was no 'cover up' stemming from 1998. Knowing what they knew, and what the investigators knew, no abuse had occurred.

As for the 2001 incident, it is still not known what happened, and up until now, there is no hard evidence proving that known child sexual abuse was covered up. It is not known exactly what Paterno, Spanier, Schultz, and Curly knew about what happened in those showers, but so far there is no evidence that they knew it was child sexual abuse. They knew something happened, but for all anyone knew, it could have appeared to them as a repeat of the 1998 case. Should they have gone to authorities? Hell yes, I'm not denying that. But were they aware that Sandusky was sexually abusing a child? There is no proof of that.

Before you begin to cite the Freeh report, read the damn thing. Not the press release, not the 'executive summary' that claims they all knew and covered up. Look at the facts, and the indisputable evidence. Based on what that shows, there's still questions to be answered, and a large part of the story has yet to be told. The Freeh report would not hold up for one second in court, as much of it is based on assumptions and guesses about what happened. (Read here for more info: http://tominpaine.blogspot.com/ If that's not enough, there are plenty of other articles and posts by lawyers about the report, just google it.)

I'm not saying that Paterno, Schultz, Curly, and Spanier are totally innocent, because we all know they could have done more. But the truth of the matter is, many of the decisions that have been made (Firing Paterno and Spanier), taking down the statue, the entire Freeh Report, and the sanctions by the NCAA have been hasty. They were done to satisfy the public mob and the media rather than waiting until the facts and legal proceedings are complete. There is still much to be told about what happened, but public pressure dictated otherwise, fueled by unaccountable media in search of stories and ratings rather than the truth.

And since you're probably thinking it, yes, I go to Penn State, and I'm damn proud of it.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by ktrip

If you can find the facts that prove this, then yes,  he probably would be. But the FACTS, not speculation, have not shown that he covered up child sexual abuse. In 1998, after the incident where Sandusky showered with a child, it was reported to the Department of Welfare. They investigated, and they had concluded that no child abuse had occurred. So there was no 'cover up' stemming from 1998. Knowing what they knew, and what the investigators knew, no abuse had occurred.

As for the 2001 incident, it is still not known what happened, and up until now, there is no hard evidence proving that known child sexual abuse was covered up. It is not known exactly what Paterno, Spanier, Schultz, and Curly knew about what happened in those showers, but so far there is no evidence that they knew it was child sexual abuse. They knew something happened, but for all anyone knew, it could have appeared to them as a repeat of the 1998 case. Should they have gone to authorities? Hell yes, I'm not denying that. But were they aware that Sandusky was sexually abusing a child? There is no proof of that.

Before you begin to cite the Freeh report, read the damn thing. Not the press release, not the 'executive summary' that claims they all knew and covered up. Look at the facts, and the indisputable evidence. Based on what that shows, there's still questions to be answered, and a large part of the story has yet to be told. The Freeh report would not hold up for one second in court, as much of it is based on assumptions and guesses about what happened. (Read here for more info: http://tominpaine.blogspot.com/ If that's not enough, there are plenty of other articles and posts by lawyers about the report, just google it.)

I'm not saying that Paterno, Schultz, Curly, and Spanier are totally innocent, because we all know they could have done more. But the truth of the matter is, many of the decisions that have been made (Firing Paterno and Spanier), taking down the statue, the entire Freeh Report, and the sanctions by the NCAA have been hasty. They were done to satisfy the public mob and the media rather than waiting until the facts and legal proceedings are complete. There is still much to be told about what happened, but public pressure dictated otherwise, fueled by unaccountable media in search of stories and ratings rather than the truth.

And since you're probably thinking it, yes, I go to Penn State, and I'm damn proud of it.

This is the problem with NCAA and why they are worthless, there is no process, the report comes out, Penn State agrees with it and it is done. This whole thing is a PR move by the NCAA and also by Penn State...the trusties for PSU should be ashamed of themselves for agreeing to these sanctions. i have no problem with a legal caes, if PSU loses fine they owe whoever whateve amount but for the NCAA to come and do this is total BS.

I am not a PSU grad, don't have a vested interest, don't care much at all about the punishment - just that the system stinks and they were deemed guilty and should be killed long ago. it is a sham.

[bwdial]

Sorry, but I have read it, and I came away with a whole different interpretation.

The case in 1998 fell apart based on Seasock's report, which if I remember correctly, wasn't supposed to have happened in the first place.  They were going to investigate more prior to doing another psychological evaluation on the boy, but Seasock went ahead with it and reported that he didn't think that Sandusky was grooming the boy and that he had never heard of a fifty-some-odd year old man "becoming a pedophile".  According to the DA, that report scuttled the investigation because they would never be able to go into court.

I tried to read that blog you posted, but it makes my head hurt.  It's like one long run-on sentence, and he's wrong.  The "proof" he uses is that by "coach" they were referring to Jerry Sandusky.  If that's the case, why would they refer to him as "JS" in other correspondence?

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by bwdial

Sorry, but I have read it, and I came away with a whole different interpretation.

I agree.  I have no idea how anyone can read that report and not see clear facts pointing to a cover up, and that they knew what was going on.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

I agree.  I have no idea how anyone can read that report and not see clear facts pointing to a cover up, and that they knew what was going on.

The majority of the people that read the report and jump on the 'It's a conspiracy and speculation!' train, are Penn State alumni or currently attending.

PSU alum are so damn blind to facts right now that I cannot even believe it. We honestly need to withdraw our troops from hopeless places in this world and start taking care of things here at home. People are so damn detached from reality and desensitized that it is really, really scary.

[burtonda]

Originally Posted by inthehole

As a long time PA resident, I can assure you more than a few people care about his coaching ability AND record.     There are a heckuva lot more young men in his 46 years as head coach that he guided in their formative years at Penn State, making them into the people they went on to become.      This seems to have been totally forgotten.       I can't believe no one seems to be able to separate his coaching career from this Sandusky debacle.     As I've said repeatedly, I don't condone whatever coverup happened, but fergodssake people, give the man his due.    He earned it.

This "Sandusky debacle" became inseparable from your treasured JoePa when he and the Penn State power structure chose the football program and JoePa's career over the welfare of the vulnerable kids that Sandusky was methodically, and virtually publicly, destroying.

I do give JoePa his due - I call him a criminal.  He earned it.

[RonTheSavage]

So what, JoePa was a good coach and did some good things..........who gives a rip? He coached for 197 years so ofcourse he would have alot of wins! People act like he cured Cancer and fed starving children in third world countries. He was ONLY a football coach for crying out loud. Screw his legacy, he tuned a blind eye while innocent children were sodomized. There is no coming back from that.

[newtogolf]

No one cares except for people like you that refuse to see that Paterno put himself, his football program and his legacy ahead of innocent kids.  I don't care what he did prior to that, he enabled a pedophile to continue to abuse kids at his school, in his lockerroom, at his bowl events.   I don't care how many stupid football games he won, he failed the kids that needed him most and that's how most non-PSU alumni will remember him.  What he earned was a jail cell next to Sandusky, fortunately for him and his family he passed before the full truth came out.

Originally Posted by inthehole

As a long time PA resident, I can assure you more than a few people care about his coaching ability AND record.     There are a heckuva lot more young men in his 46 years as head coach that he guided in their formative years at Penn State, making them into the people they went on to become.      This seems to have been totally forgotten.       I can't believe no one seems to be able to separate his coaching career from this Sandusky debacle.     As I've said repeatedly, I don't condone whatever coverup happened, but fergodssake people, give the man his due.    He earned it.