Elbow Position and Its Effects on the Downswing

[westpenncyclist]

It also seems the position on the left will require an early release to get the club face square at impact.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Hogan1949

I thought I saw it in another thread re: S&T; principles and it may not even been you that said it. I'll see if I can find something because I found it very confusing.

It's not an S&T; principle, and let's not take things out of context. Someone might need to feel a lower lead shoulder or something, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by westpenncyclist

It also seems the position on the left will require an early release to get the club face square at impact.

Not necessarily, but it may, sure.

[JetFan1983]

This question I have here may be too simplified or too much of a paradigm shift, but does keeping the right elbow in this correct position (more in front of the torso rather than slightly behind it) allow the golfer to hit the ball with more of a (for lack of a better term) body blow or body hit?

Am I on the right track here, and does this question I'm posing even make sense per the topic?

And not to make this a "My Swing" topic, but I'm definitely the jackass on the left in that OP, if that helps people understand my question better.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This question I have here may be too simplified or too much of a paradigm shift, but does keeping the right elbow in this correct position (more in front of the torso rather than slightly behind it) allow the golfer to hit the ball with more of a (for lack of a better term) body blow or body hit?

Honestly, I think it's a bit more the opposite, but we're talking about feels so it may feel different to you.

When the trail elbow gets too far around the body and near or past the shirt seam, you have two options if you don't want to slice:

1. Keep going forward FOREVER (Charlie Wi)
2. Uncock, tip your head back a little, and perhaps even palmar flex to keep the club from tipping out across the line.

A trail elbow that's stuck behind relies more on body rotation to get the clubhead down to the ball because you can't release your accumulators fast enough (again, unless you want to slice). The first accumulator can't release very well if it's stuck behind your chest/belly.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by iacas

Honestly, I think it's a bit more the opposite, but we're talking about feels so it may feel different to you.

So you're saying I was close

[boil3rmak3r]

I've become a bit of a nerd in researching the golf swing, so I enjoy threads like this.  Prior to my recent research, I never really thought about the role of the elbows in the swing (I've been golfing for 20+ years).  I've recently read lots of things that describe the importance of the elbows.  The role of the right elbow is what my question if about...

It seems that having the right elbow lead the hands into impact (in a pinched or pitched position, I forget which was which) is crucial in maintaining lag into the hitting area.  At an even higher level, the simple act of keeping the right arm bent into the hitting area is a must.  As soon as the right arm starts the straighten, lag starts to be lost.

Are the statements in the above paragraph generally true?  If so, I wonder why more instructors (and instruction books for that matter) don't discuss the importance of the right elbow in the downswing...

[Golfingdad]

I love it!  I have perused this thread before but never paid too close attention.  It had never been a priority piece for me, until now.  Thanks, Erik, for giving me a few more feels to work on if I get stuck!

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This question I have here may be too simplified or too much of a paradigm shift, but does keeping the right elbow in this correct position (more in front of the torso rather than slightly behind it) allow the golfer to hit the ball with more of a (for lack of a better term) body blow or body hit?

Am I on the right track here, and does this question I'm posing even make sense per the topic?

And not to make this a "My Swing" topic, but I'm definitely the jackass on the left in that OP, if that helps people understand my question better.

Don't be so hard on yourself Jetfan, you're not a jackass.  You're a dumbass.

Same here, though.  That's why I feel this thread is speaking to me today.  The guy on the left in Erik's OP looks so familiar to me too (if he was a little taller and a lot fatter).

[carrx]

I'm another one of those who've posted already acknowledging their longer than necessary swing.  My timing has always been really good, so I've managed to be a pretty consistent and solid ball striker, but I'm still seeking improvement.

I've been working on keeping my right elbow 'attached' to my torso on the backswing, while trying to feel like the angle between my hand and upper arm never equals less than 90 degrees.  I'm not sure if it's technicall optimal, but I've played recently with a friend and fellow swing nerd like myself, and the feedback I'm getting is my swing is much more compact (my typical swing would go past parallel, and might even include some front arm (left) bend to compensate.

One side effect of this has been some market difficulty hitting iron shots.  It's possible this isn't the only issue I'm facing, but I have noticed a propensity for fat shots, and am nearly a full club shorter than my traditional iron swing, although my driver distances are equal (possibly improved considering the added carry).

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

It seems that having the right elbow lead the hands into impact (in a pinched or pitched position, I forget which was which) is crucial in maintaining lag into the hitting area.  At an even higher level, the simple act of keeping the right arm bent into the hitting area is a must.  As soon as the right arm starts the straighten, lag starts to be lost.

Are the statements in the above paragraph generally true?  If so, I wonder why more instructors (and instruction books for that matter) don't discuss the importance of the right elbow in the downswing...

I think the first statement might be a good feel for some.  Like anything else on the downswing, make sure the weight is forward.

Be careful with the right arm staying bent feel.  If you focus on keeping it "bent" the hands can't get down, then you have tip your upper center back and flip.  Can also get the right elbow too far behind the shirt seam.  It's about straightening it at the right sequence or in the right direction.  Couple good pics below.  Both right arms have flex to them but look at the space between the right elbow and the torso.  The tour player on the left has no space while the amateur has a gap.  So I would say let it straighten but feel that it straightens to a spot past the ball.  Almost like you had a spear and you were throwing it into the ground a foot or two past the ball.  The golfer in the right pic is throwing that "spear" either at or behind the ball.

Here's a drill I do for myself and share with students.  Watch how I'm moving my arm on the practice moves.  I'm trying to get my hands or the handle down, almost as low as I can without really looking crazy.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mvmac

I think the first statement might be a good feel for some.  Like anything else on the downswing, make sure the weight is forward.

Be careful with the right arm staying bent feel.  If you focus on keeping it "bent" the hands can't get down, then you have tip your upper center back and flip.  Can also get the right elbow too far behind the shirt seam.  It's about straightening it at the right sequence or in the right direction.  Couple good pics below.  Both right arms have flex to them but look at the space between the right elbow and the torso.  The tour player on the left has no space while the amateur has a gap.  So I would say let it straighten but feel that it straightens to a spot past the ball.  Almost like you had a spear and you were throwing it into the ground a foot or two past the ball.  The golfer in the right pic is throwing that "spear" either at or behind the ball.

Here's a drill I do for myself and share with students.  Watch how I'm moving my arm on the practice moves.  I'm trying to get my hands or the handle down, almost as low as I can without really looking crazy.

Oh, great!  I've occasionally been doing your pump drill to try and get my arms to come down independent of the body ... didn't know it also worked well for the elbows.  Thanks!

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This question I have here may be too simplified or too much of a paradigm shift, but does keeping the right elbow in this correct position (more in front of the torso rather than slightly behind it) allow the golfer to hit the ball with more of a (for lack of a better term) body blow or body hit?

Am I on the right track here, and does this question I'm posing even make sense per the topic?

And not to make this a "My Swing" topic, but I'm definitely the jackass on the left in that OP, if that helps people understand my question better.

Don't be so hard on yourself Jetfan, you're not a jackass.  You're a dumbass.

Same here, though.  That's why I feel this thread is speaking to me today.  The guy on the left in Erik's OP looks so familiar to me too (if he was a little taller and a lot fatter).

I'm both. And you might want to throw some other words in there that would get starred out by the auto-censor too. Because for the last 3-4 range sessions, I've been about as creative as a man made of logs when it comes to figuring out how to fix this. But tonight may have been the break through I've been looking for:

I essentially took this sentence from the OP:

Originally Posted by iacas

don't let your right elbow get behind (or near) your shirt seam to begin with.

... and modified it into a feel for me. With a slightly bent right arm, I increased right arm pit pressure and more or less felt like I had fused my upper right arm to my right pectoral at address. The goal was to not only never let my right arm get behind me, but to also keep it there throughout the swing as long as possible. Now, I only hit about 12 balls doing this because the sun set and this range I hit at has no lights on it, but I flushed all 12 (9 iron, 7 iron, 5 iron, 3-wood, and driver).

Now, with no light, I couldn't film it, so for all I know I was just doing the same dumb ass/jack ass move that my body and arms just sooooo love to do over and over again, but I'll film it and confirm later in the week. My fingers are crossed this is a good-to-go feel.

Of course, my other big problem connected to this is the shaft tipping out when my left forearm wants to start rolling really early, so it's possible that kept happening and I was just timing everything better, but I'm going to stick with this feeling and see what happens the next time I hit the range.

PS- I do the pump drill too, and its definitely useful. I'll combine that with this new feel next time too and see what happens.

DumbAss1983: Making Feel Real Since 2012.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm both. And you might want to throw some other words in there that would get starred out by the auto-censor too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Of course, my other big problem connected to this is the shaft tipping out when my left forearm wants to start rolling really early, so it's possible that kept happening and I was just timing everything better, but I'm going to stick with this feeling and see what happens the next time I hit the range.

But I feel like that is the beauty of this position.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the elbow "tucked in" next to the body or in front, rather than around the back like I am wont to do, it seems like it's impossible to make the shaft tip out like I do.  As the elbow goes, so go the hands, and voila, I'm back on plane.  I hope?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

DumbAss1983: Making Feel Real Since 2012.

It's 2013. Was your range session eight days ago? :)

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But I feel like that is the beauty of this position.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the elbow "tucked in" next to the body or in front, rather than around the back like I am wont to do, it seems like it's impossible to make the shaft tip out like I do.  As the elbow goes, so go the hands, and voila, I'm back on plane.  I hope?

Precisely. Again, the first picture illustrates this pretty well. The right elbow position is largely a Key #4 deal with a corresponding impact on Key #5.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm both. And you might want to throw some other words in there that would get starred out by the auto-censor too.

Lol, I know the feeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Of course, my other big problem connected to this is the shaft tipping out when my left forearm wants to start rolling really early, so it's possible that kept happening and I was just timing everything better, but I'm going to stick with this feeling and see what happens the next time I hit the range.

But I feel like that is the beauty of this position.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the elbow "tucked in" next to the body or in front, rather than around the back like I am wont to do, it seems like it's impossible to make the shaft tip out like I do.  As the elbow goes, so go the hands, and voila, I'm back on plane.  I hope?

I hope you're right too. That if I sort of pre-set the "elbow pitchiness" or at least keep it stable, some pitch elbow is much easier to achieve.

And if nothing else, it was fun flushing 12 shots in a row and not hitting an ugly as hell toe stricken over-draw or whatever. Please be a legit feel!!!!

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

DumbAss1983: Making Feel Real Since 2012.

It's 2013. Was your range session eight days ago? :)

That's part of the beauty of being Dumbass1983. You don't know what year it is.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Jetfan1983 - .. and modified it into a feel for me. With a slightly bent right arm, I increased right arm pit pressure and more or less felt like I had fused my upper right arm to my right pectoral at address. The goal was to not only never let my right arm get behind me, but to also keep it there throughout the swing as long as possible. Now, I only hit about 12 balls doing this because the sun set and this range I hit at has no lights on it, but I flushed all 12 (9 iron, 7 iron, 5 iron, 3-wood, and driver).

I too was getting my right elbow stuck too far behind.  I kind of misinterpreted the "Deep Hands" feeling early on.  To correct, I've worked on the feeling of having my right elbow drive toward my belly button and not worry as much about the right arm pit connection in the back swing.  Mike helped me with this in my Evolvr lessons.  This helped a lot.

I also worked on getting my hands higher in the back swing so they weren't as far back at A4 as seen from the down the line view.  My right elbow was getting trapped back behind my shirt.  Doing this made it much easier to bring the elbow in to the right position at A5 and A6.  My swing was very flat.  I still fight this when I get fatigued.

As part of my fitness routine, I actually work on this motion (the drill in Mike's video) with an elastic resistance band or pulley weight system at the gym.  You pull down from the A4 position with the band or pulley strap attached up high and focus on getting the elbow and hips in the right position and weight forward to about the A7 impact position.  You do the reps slowly and focus on form.  I got the idea from Joey D's book, Fix Your Body, Fix Your Swing. When you do it correctly, you realize that you can't get your elbow in the right position without your hips sliding forward and your weight transferring to your left foot, etc.  It was like a eureka moment for me.  It also really works your core.  If you do it in front of a mirror, you can really see the elbow in the right place.

You can do other parts or your swing with the same resistance band or weight pulley by changing the angle that they are attached.  Working on your rotator cuff flexibility helps too.

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quote:

Jetfan1983 - .. and modified it into a feel for me. With a slightly bent right arm, I increased right arm pit pressure and more or less felt like I had fused my upper right arm to my right pectoral at address. The goal was to not only never let my right arm get behind me, but to also keep it there throughout the swing as long as possible. Now, I only hit about 12 balls doing this because the sun set and this range I hit at has no lights on it, but I flushed all 12 (9 iron, 7 iron, 5 iron, 3-wood, and driver).

I too was getting my right elbow stuck too far behind.  I kind of misinterpreted the "Deep Hands" feeling early on.  To correct, I've worked on the feeling of having my right elbow drive toward my belly button and not worry as much about the right arm pit connection in the back swing.  Mike helped me with this in my Evolvr lessons.  This helped a lot.

I understand having too much of a good thing in this game. I've suffered from too much shaft lean, arms too straight on the backswing, too much extension on the downswing, and too much feet flare out so far -- all good things when done correctly, but when overdone (as that word so implies) they become as detrimental to your scores as any irrelevant magazine or youtube tip might be.

I too used the "drive the elbow in the belly button feel." Erik's really provided us with good stuff to work with. For me, my eureka moment last night was doing what I talked about in what you quoted... for the first time, I was in a position to drive that belly button -- before, my elbow had gotten so close to my shirt seam, that I couldn't get it back there in time. Now I realize why the other feels -- drive the belly button, squeeze elbows together on the downswing, shallow out the shaft plane -- didn't work for me.

The movement of the trail elbow on the backswing is so incredibly subtle that I simply could not see it on camera -- and I literally am filming 10-30 swings every time I practice -- in 420 FPS no less (so I can see club face alignments at A6, A7.5 and A8). It took reading the OP of this thread, plus trying to understand aspects of my own My Swing Thread -- where Erik and Mike had mentioned this to me, but for some reason, it didn't really jump off the page at me -- to land at this feeling.

You know, it probably never resonated with me in the past simply because its just so darn difficult to see on camera. One's elbow positioning at A5 -- as I now understand it -- can be the big indicator that the trail elbow has moved too much behind you -- but it hadn't really clicked that this was a potential root cause until recently.

I remember S&T; Instructor Dave Quinn one time asked me to observe a student he was teaching, and they were working on fixing this problem. He explained to me that the role of the trail arm in the golf swing was -- if fully simplified -- to flex and extend. If it's moving behind you, that is a major mistake and leads to problems. He asked me if I understood why, and I said yes. Unfortunately for me, I did not fully comprehend just how subtle of a flaw this is on camera, let alone to the naked eye. This thread, as well as past experiences on the range, observation of lessons, and other random sources, have helped me greatly improve my understanding on this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I also worked on getting my hands higher in the back swing so they weren't as far back at A4 as seen from the down the line view.  My right elbow was getting trapped back behind my shirt.  Doing this made it much easier to bring the elbow in to the right position at A5 and A6.  My swing was very flat.  I still fight this when I get fatigued.

As part of my fitness routine, I actually work on this motion (the drill in Mike's video) with an elastic resistance band or pulley weight system at the gym.  You pull down from the A4 position with the band or pulley strap attached up high and focus on getting the elbow and hips in the right position and weight forward to about the A7 impact position.  You do the reps slowly and focus on form.  I got the idea from Joey D's book, Fix Your Body, Fix Your Swing. When you do it correctly, you realize that you can't get your elbow in the right position without your hips sliding forward and your weight transferring to your left foot, etc.  It was like a eureka moment for me.  It also really works your core.  If you do it in front of a mirror, you can really see the elbow in the right place.

You can do other parts or your swing with the same resistance band or weight pulley by changing the angle that they are attached.  Working on your rotator cuff flexibility helps too.

I've seen tons of PGA players do this, but I think their intentions are to primarily increase core strength. That said, I'm really happy this is working out for you -- in my case, as I described above, turning it into a set-up piece first seems to be allowing me to form pitch elbow more easily. But again, I want to stress that this easily could have been a flash in the pan feel, even though I do feel really excited about this discovery. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't praying and wishing that this will work again next time.

Now if I ever find myself in a gym, I will be sure to try this out -- of course, lately, I've been quite neglectful of this, but I will certainly do a couple sets of this just to see how to feels in regards to our topic here.

***

Unrelated to the above, but relevant to the topic:

Last night, I found this old thread from 2010 that Stretch started, asking about how to fix this (or at least, a very big aspect of it), and it correlated really nicely with this new feel I discovered and talked about above, as well as certain aspects of the OP. Check it out if you're looking to supplement your pitch elbow knowledge a little bit more.

EDIT: I removed my discussion about MORAD because I felt after posting that it wasn't as relevant to the conversation as I originally thought... and because I don't know enough about MORAD to talk about it.

[boogielicious]

Thanks.  I remember that thread.  What I did wrong then was try to keep my right elbow attached.

The bad part about winter is I can't film at high fps with my camera at the indoor range.  There is not enough light.  This is the time of year to really work things out.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Thanks.  I remember that thread.  What I did wrong then was try to keep my right elbow attached.

Yea, my elbow is not attached to my rib cage. There is spacing. I'd say there's a good five inches between my elbow and upper arm that is free from attachment at address. The upper right arm however feels to me like its fused to the right pectoral, with the left side of my biceps just to the right of the nipple.