When Pros look like Amateurs

[TourSpoon]

I think the steady 25 mph wind with gusts had a lot to do with it. As far as the layout, I enjoyed that dinky par 3 that proved to be a monster. The closest course that I have played to this is Seminole, one of Donald Ross's most famous designs which has been used by many pros as a tune-up course for Augusta. Not a long course, but one that requires precise approaches and local knowledge of the bounces and undulations. Any way, I love what I am seeing from Royal Melbourne and would support a major coming from that region.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

In one playoff round this year, on the first par 5 I'd left myself with about a 15 foot eagle putt that ended up being a side-door 12 footer for par. Yay me!! That green when uncut gets shaggy and grainy. Left the first putt 1/2 to the hole then went berzerk on the second putt and sent it sceaming over the cup. So on #14 from < 10 feet away (the only green on the course that had been cut due to frost) I rocketed my first putt almost off the green then it took me 3 more to get down.

I actually don't enjoy watching pros take > 3 putts. It's a bit too painful - even for players I don't care for.

Hey I hit a 6 iron to 3 feet for eagle in a tournament this year, 3 putted for par.

Watching pros do it makes me feel better

[FLOG4]

I hope they have Kiawah Ocean set up for the PGA next year in a way that confounds them. I know after the Ryder was there the resort was so concerned that people wouldn't come that they had the sr's there and stuck all the pins in easy spots and did there best to let them score.  If the wind blows and the set up is on edge they could have the winning score be even.

[zipazoid]

It's not difficult to make a course brutally hard. Thus it is not difficult to make anyone - including pros - look silly. I could design a course right now that nobody could break 90 on, including the pros.

The USGA got their panties in a wad when Johnny Miller shot a 63 to win the US Open at Oakmont in 1973. Their response? They tricked-up Winged Foot in 1974 to the point that seven over par won the event. Again, it's not difficult to make a course hard.

So no, I don't get a vicarious thrill seeing pros struggle, the exception being if weather conditions are the cause. Cuz I will tell you right now, if a pro is shooting 85 on a course, there is no way any of us is gonna break 110 on that same layout. So if anyone gets a giggle out of the tour players struggling on a layout, you go out and play it & see what you shoot...if you even finish the round.

Tour pros are the best players on the planet and I marvel at their abilities...there's nothing comforting to me to trump-up a course to the point where they resemble, well, me.

[Spyder]

I really don't care either way, and I'll explain why. (As far as seeing them struggle or do extremely well).

First, I just like watching challenging golf with tight contention in the top 10 where you really have no idea who is going to take it all home. I can't really sit there and relate to the professionals and laugh at a guy who posted 10 over par when the leader/winner turned in 2 under par. To me, that just shows that the course was/is extremely difficult and it would be a +50 for me. We, as amateurs, sometimes forget that these guys are just that damn good. Just because they're struggling doesn't mean that we should get any satisfaction out of it or think that we would be able to compete. That's a really big misconception, especially when most amateurs are playing Par 4s that are barely 300 yards. There's many amateurs out there that would exceed the limit on a 240 Par 3 that is tucked behind a river/lake. Hell, most amateurs couldn't accurately reach that green with their Driver where the professionals are sending the ball in with a 5i. The other majority of amateurs would never think to lay up with a 7 (or whatever you prefer for argument's sake) and go PW in and try to shoot for Par or +1.

So overall I just like watching exciting golf with twists and turns in the leader board where it's either A) Anybody's game to win or B) Someone is having the round of his/her life and charging up the leader board or just dominating the lead. I really don't see how I could get any satisfaction out of watching them struggle, or try to relate in any way. Just my opinion.

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

It's not difficult to make a course brutally hard. Thus it is not difficult to make anyone - including pros - look silly. I could design a course right now that nobody could break 90 on, including the pros.

The USGA got their panties in a wad when Johnny Miller shot a 63 to win the US Open at Oakmont in 1973. Their response? They tricked-up Winged Foot in 1974 to the point that seven over par won the event. Again, it's not difficult to make a course hard.

So no, I don't get a vicarious thrill seeing pros struggle, the exception being if weather conditions are the cause. Cuz I will tell you right now, if a pro is shooting 85 on a course, there is no way any of us is gonna break 110 on that same layout. So if anyone gets a giggle out of the tour players struggling on a layout, you go out and play it & see what you shoot...if you even finish the round.

Tour pros are the best players on the planet and I marvel at their abilities...there's nothing comforting to me to trump-up a course to the point where they resemble, well, me.

You can not design a course where the pros won't break 90....You use Winged Foot as your worst case scenario and +7 for 4 rounds wins..Back in 1974!....My point is with the games these guys have at this point......How do you seperate the champs from the pretenders.....Should you be able to hit your drive 350 find it scrape it up and walk off with birdie/par...Take the driver out of his hands. make him think vs just bomb it. I marvel at many players abilities. Even top amateurs. But when we try to put that puzzled look on the faces of the very best, I enjoy those competitions more than birdie fests.JMHO The week prior to Open at Bethpage I slept in my car got teetime and met up with my scratch golfer son. We played the tips. Green speeds weren't us open but greens at Black are relatively flat anyway. Shot 95 couldn't reach a few fairways even though I hit my best. Son shot 79. I played very well.

[jamo]

You can not design a course where the pros won't break 90

Challenge accepted! :-D

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by jamo

Challenge accepted!

+1 to that lol. Give me a case of Great Lakes Christmas Ale and an etcha-sketch. I'll have this done by tonight!

[Spyder]

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

You can not design a course where the pros won't break 90....You use Winged Foot as your worst case scenario and +7 for 4 rounds wins..Back in 1974!....My point is with the games these guys have at this point......How do you seperate the champs from the pretenders.....Should you be able to hit your drive 350 find it scrape it up and walk off with birdie/par...Take the driver out of his hands. make him think vs just bomb it. I marvel at many players abilities. Even top amateurs. But when we try to put that puzzled look on the faces of the very best, I enjoy those competitions more than birdie fests.JMHO The week prior to Open at Bethpage I slept in my car got teetime and met up with my scratch golfer son. We played the tips. Green speeds weren't us open but greens at Black are relatively flat anyway. Shot 95 couldn't reach a few fairways even though I hit my best. Son shot 79. I played very well.

Challenge accepted. Fact, such a course already exists. Pine Valley. Hide the pins, grow the rough, make it play at 7500 yards & betcha maybe one pro by virtue of holing a couple of monster putts breaks 80. Maybe.

The 1974 Winged Foot example was to show how a course can be made brutally hard - yes I know it was 37 years ago and all that. Point was to show how someone with the right (or wrong) mentality can make a course brutal. Seventh green at Shinnecock in 2004 is another example - pros couldn't hold the green with any shot. 18th green at Olympic in 1998 - remember Tom Lehman's 180-horseshoe from 4 feet that ended up 30 feet away? Refrehser -

I'll stand by my statement. I can design a course a pro can't break 90 on. It's not that difficult to do. What's difficult is making a course tough but fair. Making it a sadistic unfair experience is easy. Picture 17 at TPC from 225. That kind of thing.

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Challenge accepted. Fact, such a course already exists. Pine Valley. Hide the pins, grow the rough, make it play at 7500 yards & betcha maybe one pro by virtue of holing a couple of monster putts breaks 80. Maybe.

The 1974 Winged Foot example was to show how a course can be made brutally hard - yes I know it was 37 years ago and all that. Point was to show how someone with the right (or wrong) mentality can make a course brutal. Seventh green at Shinnecock in 2004 is another example - pros couldn't hold the green with any shot. 18th green at Olympic in 1998 - remember Tom Lehman's 180-horseshoe from 4 feet that ended up 30 feet away? Refrehser -

I'll stand by my statement. I can design a course a pro can't break 90 on. It's not that difficult to do. What's difficult is making a course tough but fair. Making it a sadistic unfair experience is easy. Picture 17 at TPC from 225. That kind of thing.

90 is a big number.....Has any pro ever shot 90 or above in any championship? And your statement is any pro........ My point is the following. Say what you want about a tricked up Oakmont or Winged Foot A British Open in gale force winds....But their members play those courses on a day in day out basis in conditions very similar to what the pros encounter. Nobody shot over 90.  If your statement was 80....I might believe that.  The premise of my position is the course needs to maintain viability. So you will design a course that no pro can break 90 and no other human will break 125...NO....And Pine Valley I have played. There is a reason why they won't let the pros come there.  They want the mystique of difficulty held.  They would eat it up.  See you supposition that you could design an unplayable couse and make the best shoot above 90.....I counter NO because they are better than you think and 90 is a VERY BIG NUMBER for a pro....But that's just my opinion.  fostered from seeking out playing the very hardest courses in the whole world and knowing just how good these guys really are. And my guess is a 225 TPC 17th would average a score of 4. Which if that is the worst hole the aggregate total will be below 90.

[jamo]

90 is a big number.....Has any pro ever shot 90 or above in any championship?

John Daly has to have done it at some point.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

You can not design a course where the pros won't break 90....

80 perhaps, but not 90. Without it being ridiculous with 5-yard fairways, greens 20 on the stimp and rough 8 ft tall...

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by jamo

John Daly has to have done it at some point.

Yea probably......But the gauntlett was any pro not one....Nuff said.

[normdamarine]

Those greens were hard and rolling to a 14... Good luck!

[michaeljames92]

Its just a different type of golf, you don't just rip driver off every hole, you have to place the ball in certain spots in order to get your approach close to the pin. The course was no way long at all, with wide fairways. Our club championships play around 12 on the stimp each year with greens that you don't get much of a plug mark either. You just have to sometimes run shots up and play short of the hole in hope of not getting yourself in bad positions. Wasn't surprised Tiger played well today, his creativity in shotmaking puts him above a lot of guys when he is hitting it well.

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Its just a different type of golf, you don't just rip driver off every hole, you have to place the ball in certain spots in order to get your approach close to the pin. The course was no way long at all, with wide fairways. Our club championships play around 12 on the stimp each year with greens that you don't get much of a plug mark either. You just have to sometimes run shots up and play short of the hole in hope of not getting yourself in bad positions. Wasn't surprised Tiger played well today, his creativity in shotmaking puts him above a lot of guys when he is hitting it well.

Doesn't matter how well he hits it.....Gotta get the ball in the hole.  He made putts....Other days he didn't.  He looked solid in all aspects.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Doesn't matter how well he hits it.....Gotta get the ball in the hole.  He made putts....Other days he didn't.  He looked solid in all aspects.

I'm confused. Doesn't hitting the ball well go hand-in-hand with getting the ball to the hole, as well as getting it close enough to put it in? lol I would venture to believe that they are all a part of golf, and they all matter. All 3 things that you said above do go together.

"Doesn't matter how well he hits it" "He looked solid in all aspects".

You can't be solid in all aspects of the game if you're not hitting it well. Or if your putts are off, you're not solid in all aspects, etc.