Amateur vs Pro putting stroke

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by iacas

Because the margin of error shrinks in terms of distance control and because putts break more on faster greens.

Here are the facts:

At slow green speeds, long putts become easier. You can put the ball anywhere on the green - above the flag in spots you can't expect to make putts from on faster greens - and have a pretty easy two-putt.

At fast green speeds, shorter putts become easier to make, because the ball requires less speed, and thus a smaller stroke, and is less likely to be knocked offline by a surface flaw.

Those are the facts of the studies conducted, and they line up with my own experiences. The studies say you see less birdie putts made from, say, 15 feet on slower greens than you do on faster greens.

I find arguements are proven when you analyze th extremes of the premise vs the norms.  But for this we'll just do one simple point.  Slow green speeds for this one to one analysis we shall say is the average PGA course during tournaments. Week in week out that is a green running at 11.  A fast green speed is any green utilized during a major championship. During the Masters, The PGA, US Open and the British.  Based on this the results of an average PGA event the putting stats should show more total putts than from an event where a major championship is held. If we are to believe that it is easier to putt on fast green speeds. The results don't show that....

For the average amateur the following analysis is more poignant.  Day in day out at the club you play at whatever that green speed is we will say is a slow green speed. When you have your Club Championship or big tourney where the big money is bet like your calcutta we'll call that day your fast green speed. The courses I have been a member at during those days of the big tourney they cut the greens shorter and roll them.  Day to day they don't do that.  In that simple one on one I am to believe that during that special day of the big event it is easier to putt vs all the other days because the greens are faster?  Utter and total BS....

Probably the best single analysis to my arguement is an analysis to the very few courses where a PGA event is regularly played...Torrey Pines, Pebble Beach are the two that come to mind mostly.  Versus when they schedule a Major Championship at that course. So I am to believe that during the standard PGA event the average total putts is more than the average during major championships.  No way, no how. The faster the green speed the tougher the putting. Look at the logic.....When it's the big tourney they want the play to be more difficult, thus they create faster green speed.  Your margin of error on your pace and your aim is reduced the faster the green speed.  If it was tougher to putt on slow greens they would create slow green conditions at major championships vs faster green conditions!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

I find arguements are proven when you analyze th extremes of the premise vs the norms.  But for this we'll just do one simple point.  Slow green speeds for this one to one analysis we shall say is the average PGA course during tournaments. Week in week out that is a green running at 11.  A fast green speed is any green utilized during a major championship. During the Masters, The PGA, US Open and the British.  Based on this the results of an average PGA event the putting stats should show more total putts than from an event where a major championship is held. If we are to believe that it is easier to putt on fast green speeds. The results don't show that....

For the average amateur the following analysis is more poignant.  Day in day out at the club you play at whatever that green speed is we will say is a slow green speed. When you have your Club Championship or big tourney where the big money is bet like your calcutta we'll call that day your fast green speed. The courses I have been a member at during those days of the big tourney they cut the greens shorter and roll them.  Day to day they don't do that.  In that simple one on one I am to believe that during that special day of the big event it is easier to putt vs all the other days because the greens are faster?  Utter and total BS....

Probably the best single analysis to my arguement is an analysis to the very few courses where a PGA event is regularly played...Torrey Pines, Pebble Beach are the two that come to mind mostly.  Versus when they schedule a Major Championship at that course. So I am to believe that during the standard PGA event the average total putts is more than the average during major championships.  No way, no how. The faster the green speed the tougher the putting. Look at the logic.....When it's the big tourney they want the play to be more difficult, thus they create faster green speed.  Your margin of error on your pace and your aim is reduced the faster the green speed.  If it was tougher to putt on slow greens they would create slow green conditions at major championships vs faster green conditions!

Good discussion, but I think we're getting a little confused on what we're each talking about.  The OP asked, "Can someone explain what the pro DOES DIFFERENTLY, or what they work on to improve their stroke. "  As Mike Shannon said, and he's somebody to listen to when it comes to putting, pros have less face rotation.  That's what the pros do differently.  Think of how the stroke has to change to putt well on greens that are 11,12 compared to 8 or 9.  I think we both agree the margin of error shrinks because distance control is held to a higher standard and putts are going to break more.  But it's easier to make a 3-5 footer on "tour" greens than greens that are 8-9 on the stemp.  Less bumps, smaller stroke to get the ball rolling.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

I find arguements are proven when you analyze th extremes of the premise vs the norms.  But for this we'll just do one simple point.  Slow green speeds for this one to one analysis we shall say is the average PGA course during tournaments. Week in week out that is a green running at 11.  A fast green speed is any green utilized during a major championship. During the Masters, The PGA, US Open and the British.  Based on this the results of an average PGA event the putting stats should show more total putts than from an event where a major championship is held. If we are to believe that it is easier to putt on fast green speeds. The results don't show that....

No, if you want to go to extremes, things can easily get out of whack. Pros don't typically play on super-fast greens, nor do amateurs typically play on greens stumping at 5. So for our purposes, comparing greens at 8 to greens at 11 is fine and, in fact, more realistic.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

For the average amateur the following analysis is more poignant.  Day in day out at the club you play at whatever that green speed is we will say is a slow green speed. When you have your Club Championship or big tourney where the big money is bet like your calcutta we'll call that day your fast green speed. The courses I have been a member at during those days of the big tourney they cut the greens shorter and roll them.  Day to day they don't do that.  In that simple one on one I am to believe that during that special day of the big event it is easier to putt vs all the other days because the greens are faster?  Utter and total BS....

You don't seem to have read the parts about allowing people a period to adjust. They don't get that time when the club championship rolls around.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Probably the best single analysis to my arguement is an analysis to the very few courses where a PGA event is regularly played...Torrey Pines, Pebble Beach are the two that come to mind mostly.  Versus when they schedule a Major Championship at that course. So I am to believe that during the standard PGA event the average total putts is more than the average during major championships.  No way, no how. The faster the green speed the tougher the putting. Look at the logic.....When it's the big tourney they want the play to be more difficult, thus they create faster green speed.  Your margin of error on your pace and your aim is reduced the faster the green speed.  If it was tougher to putt on slow greens they would create slow green conditions at major championships vs faster green conditions!

You can't look at average putting stats in "the same course." The conditions aren't even close to the same, and I'm not just talking about green speeds. PPGIR in a U.S. Open held at Torrey Pines will be with putts from longer distances due to FIRMER greens, for example. Never mind, too, the added pressure of playing in a major.

You're not using real science to back up your claims. It sounds good, and I can see why you're convinced that you're right, but read what I've said and others have said.

Now, enough of that talk - this thread is about the differences in the putting stroke between ams and pros. Let's get back to that now, please.

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Good discussion, but I think we're getting a little confused on what we're each talking about.  The OP asked, "Can someone explain what the pro DOES DIFFERENTLY, or what they work on to improve their stroke. "  As Mike Shannon said, and he's somebody to listen to when it comes to putting, pros have less face rotation.  That's what the pros do differently.  Think of how the stroke has to change to putt well on greens that are 11,12 compared to 8 or 9.  I think we both agree the margin of error shrinks because distance control is held to a higher standard and putts are going to break more.  But it's easier to make a 3-5 footer on "tour" greens than greens that are 8-9 on the stemp.  Less bumps, smaller stroke to get the ball rolling.

Amateurs have more face rotation than pros.....pros putt better due to less face rotation.....best ultimate performance is then realized with zero face rotation....that's been my arguement.

The illegalization of putters that easily allow execution of putts with zero face rotation proves my point. The endeavor by each of us to strive for zero face rotation in the face of obstacles the USGA has put in place...max 80 degree shaft placement, can not straddle line of putt.  That is my point.  I've tabled my views. Thanks for the dialogue.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Amateurs have more face rotation than pros.....pros putt better due to less face rotation.....best ultimate performance is then realized with zero face rotation....that's been my arguement.

Given the rules, the ultimate performance is not "zero face rotation."

Originally Posted by FLOG4

The illegalization of putters that easily allow execution of putts with zero face rotation proves my point. The endeavor by each of us to strive for zero face rotation in the face of obstacles the USGA has put in place...max 80 degree shaft placement, can not straddle line of putt.  That is my point.  I've tabled my views. Thanks for the dialogue.

That doesn't necessarily make sense. Perhaps straddling the line of the putt was banned because golf isn't croquet. In other words, why can't we make a pool-cue stroke at a golf ball on the putting green? That'd be even more accurate than straddling the line. Why is that illegal? Because it's a "better" way to putt or simply because it's not how the game of golf is intended to be played .

In other words, if the rules-makers deem the game of golf to be a side-on game, then that alone may be why straddle-putting or pool-putting is banned. The game of golf is simply not intended to be played that way.

[saevel25]

Its true, pro greens are better to putt on. I wouldn't say faster greens are harder to putt on. I actually love fast greens. I never had a problem with being above the hole on really fast greens. I probably haven't been on augusta fast, but i have been on greens with 10-12 before. I have had my better putting days.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I think the translation of Edel's stats is that aim isn't important (in the context of how he measured). The average pro adjusts enough so it doesn't matter. I certaintly haven't heard of any pro having an Edel fitting and dropping 2 strokes a round due to better putting.

I think it may be like tennis.  In professional tennis, you see pros playing with certain racquets that are popular among amateurs and can be found in the store for $110.  However, those racquets are all just painted to look like the off the shelf products - in reality, all of them use custom-made racquets costing about $4k, then paint them to look like Wilson Hammers or Prince Longbows, etc...  I would be willing to be it is the same in golf - perfectly fitted putters painted to look like the ones we can buy in the store.

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by iacas

Given the rules, the ultimate performance is not "zero face rotation."

That doesn't necessarily make sense. Perhaps straddling the line of the putt was banned because golf isn't croquet. In other words, why can't we make a pool-cue stroke at a golf ball on the putting green? That'd be even more accurate than straddling the line. Why is that illegal? Because it's a "better" way to putt or simply because it's not how the game of golf is intended to be played.

In other words, if the rules-makers deem the game of golf to be a side-on game, then that alone may be why straddle-putting or pool-putting is banned. The game of golf is simply not intended to be played that way.

Given the rules.....The continueing improvement of long putters and their ability to create a purer pendulum by anchoring against the body is the essence to create a pure big and thru stroke.

pool cue was banned based on concern for damage to greens as was the short putter that was used while kneeling down.  straddling the line.....every analysis done on putting starts with position of the eyes to ball.  straddling allows for an unfair advantage.

golf digest current issue takes up this issue.  the points made by several in this thread....not my words....putting experts per.....and we all know for every point there is an expert with a counter point....but the stats quoted speak to amateurs have a greater  face rotation than pros. It is argued not by me but others that a pro is better because of less rotation. It then seems to reason that no rotation is best given any means available to putt. Given the rules state max 80% my guess is within the rules a slight rotation that responds with a putter at 80% is probably the best allowed. Note that change in my arguement. I'm moldable. Given proper reasoning. 30 years of actuarial execution of data sets can do that to you. But my point would be if allowed a 90% putter with a pure stroke back and thru would be more precise.

The arguement regarding green speeds I sum up simply as The powers to be in Golf create the most difficult conditions for their Major Championships.  If the putting statistics were true that slower green speeds created higher scoring our Major Championships would be played on greens stimping at 5.....not 14. Check out the scores at Torrey Pines 08, Pebble 10 they prove my thesis correct.

[johnclayton1982]

Flog:

The problem with your theory is twofold.

1.  You assume that the higher scores on faster greens is due to putting.  This is incorrect.  Faster greens make it harder to hold the greens with iron shots, and make short games shots harder.  Therefore, you can't use total score across all shots to "prove" harder putting.  The point isn't that faster greens make golf easier, its that it makes putting easier.  You need to compare number of putts, not total score, to "prove" your theory this way.

2.  You arn't accounting for people not being used to the speed of the greens.  Difference in speed is much harder than pure speed: meaning, if the pros constantly played on stimpmeter 14 greens, say, 50 rounds in a row, then you put them on greens with a speed of 5, they would struggle.  Conversely, if you had pros play 50 rounds on stimpmeter 5 greens, then play on 14, they would struggle equally.  However, it is impossible to isolate the effect of the green speed versus the effect of the green speed *change*.  Iacas is saying that if the player *is used to the greens* then the faster the easier with the putter.  You don't isolate the variable by looking at major championship scores.

Pelz talks about this with his proroller.  Its a device he made that "putts" perfectly - settable speed and perfect square start line.  The faster the greens, the more speed combinations that put the ball, with equivilent break, into the hole.  The slower the greens, the fewer speeds can put the ball into the hole.  Faster greens = easier putting.  Faster greens /= lower scores.

[WUTiger]

Two things pop out from the thread so far:

• Pros regularly putt on fast greens.
• Pros take more time to work on their putting than most amateurs. (Pro = it's their job)

Two related things I can think of:

• Experience. Pros play lots of golf courses with lots of different turf conditions. They see things most amateurs just don't see when they look at the greens on Course A on Friday.
• Amateurs face more interference. Pros show up at the course with plenty of time to warm up. I allow time to warm-up, but if it's not a GOLF day - my main activity - things get in the way when I try to finagle a round on a "regular" day. A co-worker creates a mess, and I have to set things straight before I leave for the course... There's road construction along the way I didn't count on - 15 minutes lost.... I show up at 2:15 PM for a 3 PM tee time, and the starter wants me to tee off at 2:30 PM because a high school golf match tot shifted to the course at the last minute. And so on!!!

[FLOG4]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Flog:

The problem with your theory is twofold.

1.  You assume that the higher scores on faster greens is due to putting.  This is incorrect.  Faster greens make it harder to hold the greens with iron shots, and make short games shots harder.  Therefore, you can't use total score across all shots to "prove" harder putting.  The point isn't that faster greens make golf easier, its that it makes putting easier.  You need to compare number of putts, not total score, to "prove" your theory this way.

2.  You arn't accounting for people not being used to the speed of the greens.  Difference in speed is much harder than pure speed: meaning, if the pros constantly played on stimpmeter 14 greens, say, 50 rounds in a row, then you put them on greens with a speed of 5, they would struggle.  Conversely, if you had pros play 50 rounds on stimpmeter 5 greens, then play on 14, they would struggle equally.  However, it is impossible to isolate the effect of the green speed versus the effect of the green speed *change*.  Iacas is saying that if the player *is used to the greens* then the faster the easier with the putter.  You don't isolate the variable by looking at major championship scores.

Pelz talks about this with his proroller.  Its a device he made that "putts" perfectly - settable speed and perfect square start line.  The faster the greens, the more speed combinations that put the ball, with equivilent break, into the hole.  The slower the greens, the fewer speeds can put the ball into the hole.  Faster greens = easier putting.  Faster greens /= lower scores.

1. So I am to believe faster greens are harder to hold, harder to hit short game shots to, harder to position ball properly on the green and YET EASIER to putt.  NO

2. With a speed of 5 no pro would ever have a putt over 15 feet.  Short game shots are darts, irons are darts, 3 woods into greens are darts...Number of putts would be less.

Where we disagree and where there isn't a proper comparison to measure is the average length of putt. On average at slow green speeds the pro will have a much shorter putt than what he will have on faster green speeds.

With ultra fast greens every shot requires precision. Your drive must find the fairway, your iron must find the area that allocates a makable putt or at least not a 3 putt. Short game shots are impossible from short sided leaves.........And yet you wish to believe that even though every other shot is penalized by ultra fast greens, putting is easier.....Sorry I disagree.  And candidly I'll just leave it at we agree to disagree.

Pelz proroller confirms my premise with others that a pure roll which is imparted by a pure stroke is the perfect putting methodology.  Any putt that breaks requires a combination of speed and amount of break. Die it in the front and more break is needed. Faster pace and less break.  Two things about Pelz.....He has said every putt is straight if you hit it hard enough.....And here's where your premise is wrong....The proroller test was utilized without compensation for my above speed compensation analysis.  One aim, various speeds will give you the result of faster green speeds deliver more putts made by the proroller.  I agree. .........But analyze the misses and distance of second putts. The proroller test you refer to also indicates more three putts on faster greens. Slower greens create less three putts.

Nice try johnclayton

[iacas]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

1. So I am to believe faster greens are harder to hold, harder to hit short game shots to, harder to position ball properly on the green and YET EASIER to putt.  NO

Until you can come up with some sort of credible study otherwise, yes.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Two things about Pelz.....He has said every putt is straight if you hit it hard enough.....

That's not even close to true. A bullet begins dropping immediately as it leaves the barrel. Hell, dude, LIGHT succumbs to the effects of gravity and it's going pretty damn fast.

Sorry this response was short, but I asked that discussion get back on topic and it did not. Further off-topic discussion after this post will result in deleted posts. Thank you.

[x129]

The simple summation of why croquet putting was banned. Bobby Jones didn't like it. More detailed discussion http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/blogs/local-knowledge/2011/04/sam-sneads-desperate-measures-on-the-greens.html

As far a putt being straight if you hit it fast enough, it is pretty true. Sure a bullet and light are affected by gravity but over 60 feet if you moving at the speed of light the change is zero. More realistically you can only hit the ball so fast (I have no clue what the ball speed you can impart with a putter on a green) and above a certain speed it gets really hard to get the ball to drop. Not to mention at those speeds you are likely to hit the ball miles past the hole.

At the end of the day there isn't anything magical about a pro's putting stroke (or full swing for that matter) as a one off. They all have different grips, setups and swings. What is special is how repeatable it is and how well they can make slight adjustments. How do they get those strokes? Hours of focused practice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Given the rules, the ultimate performance is not "zero face rotation."

That doesn't necessarily make sense. Perhaps straddling the line of the putt was banned because golf isn't croquet. In other words, why can't we make a pool-cue stroke at a golf ball on the putting green? That'd be even more accurate than straddling the line. Why is that illegal? Because it's a "better" way to putt or simply because it's not how the game of golf is intended to be played.

In other words, if the rules-makers deem the game of golf to be a side-on game, then that alone may be why straddle-putting or pool-putting is banned. The game of golf is simply not intended to be played that way.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by x129

At the end of the day there isn't anything magical about a pro's putting stroke (or full swing for that matter) as a one off. They all have different grips, setups and swings. What is special is how repeatable it is and how well they can make slight adjustments. How do they get those strokes? Hours of focused practice.

Exactly! The pros are different because their strokes are consistent due to hours and hours of practice. Some have big arcs, some are more straight back, straight through. Others have zero face rotation, others quite a few degrees open or closed. At the end of the day, the pros are better putters because they repeat the same motion time and time again.

[jamo]

At the end of the day there isn't anything magical about a pro's putting stroke (or full swing for that matter) as a one off. They all have different grips, setups and swings. What is special is how repeatable it is and how well they can make slight adjustments. How do they get those strokes? Hours of focused practice.

I think in the end, that;s what it boils down too. I think some people are born with some sort of innate skill at putting (i.e. Steve Stricker is a great putter, but there are probably worse putters on Tour that have practiced more than he has), but I think that it's mostly practice. That can be helped (having a well-fitting putter, knowing how to read greens that you haven't been played before, etc.), but I think practice is the greatest common denominator. Unfortunately you can't buy ten units of practice at Golfsmith.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by x129

As far a putt being straight if you hit it fast enough, it is pretty true. Sure a bullet and light are affected by gravity but over 60 feet if you moving at the speed of light the change is zero. More realistically you can only hit the ball so fast (I have no clue what the ball speed you can impart with a putter on a green) and above a certain speed it gets really hard to get the ball to drop. Not to mention at those speeds you are likely to hit the ball miles past the hole.

Pardon me. I assumed that we were being reasonable and attempting to make the putt, not hit it 400 yards back towards the tee.

Cripes. The ball breaks immediately if there's slope. Simple physics. You might not notice it breaking, but it's breaking.

Originally Posted by x129

At the end of the day there isn't anything magical about a pro's putting stroke (or full swing for that matter) as a one off. They all have different grips, setups and swings. What is special is how repeatable it is and how well they can make slight adjustments. How do they get those strokes? Hours of focused practice.

Yep.

Guess what the #1 biggest correlation between amateurs who are good putters and amateurs who are bad putters?

The good putters like to practice putting.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Some have big arcs, some are more straight back, straight through. Others have zero face rotation, others quite a few degrees open or closed.

Very, very few are straight back and straight through and very, very few have zero face rotation (as measured square to the starting line). On putts over 15-20 feet no PGA Tour, Nationwide, or LPGA Tour pros tested are straight back, straight through. Ask Dean Thompson about those numbers. People think they're SBST but they're not.

Let me make my last post here in this thread (I think) say this:

Putting is not an awesome skill. With a little dedicated practice, you too can putt as well as OR BETTER than a PGA Tour Pro. They've had their strokes on SAM PuttLab and they're okay. Some are better than others. Some have streaky weeks. Some are downright terrible. You can, with a little time, develop a stroke that's better than a PGA Tour player's. You can learn to read putts better than a PGA Tour player too.

Most golfers are never going to deliver the clubhead to the ball at 115 MPH. Virtually all golfers can learn to putt as well as a PGA Tour player. It's the one area of the game I think people over-emphasize how good PGA Tour players are.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Very, very few are straight back and straight through and very, very few have zero face rotation (as measured square to the starting line). On putts over 15-20 feet no PGA Tour, Nationwide, or LPGA Tour pros tested are straight back, straight through. Ask Dean Thompson about those numbers. People think they're SBST but they're not.

I should have been more specific, I meant on putts under 10 ft. For more than that distance, I would say it is almost impossible to be SBST. I feel as if I am SBST on every putt but the longer the stroke the more arc I have.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Very, very few are straight back and straight through and very, very few have zero face rotation (as measured square to the starting line). On putts over 15-20 feet no PGA Tour, Nationwide, or LPGA Tour pros tested are straight back, straight through. Ask Dean Thompson about those numbers. People think they're SBST but they're not.

I should have been more specific, I meant on putts under 10 ft. For more than that distance, I would say it is almost impossible to be SBST. I feel as if I am SBST on every putt but the longer the stroke the more arc I have.

I feel SBST as well, but mostly because I used to swing on too big of an arc. I would hear stuff like "you cannot be SBST. You are always playing on an arc." And of course, that is true. But I misinterpreted the point because when I would putt, I would think about this arc I had to be on... and of course, it made the face angle at impact too erratic.

I started to think about SBST as my feeling and I've been able to start the putt on my line. So I'm still on an arc, but I need the SBST "feeling."*

Sorry for the tangent post.

*Feel isn't real