Diminished Outlandish Claims

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Well there is the possibility that Google Earths measurements are off. I did measure a local High Schools footbal field which should be 100 yards and came up with 99.78 yards. That still doesn't mean all Google Earth maps are that accurate.

0.22 yards is easily within the margin of error of you getting your mouse on the correct pixel.  I don't think GE is going to be off by 15-25 yards, which it would have to be for that course's scorecard to be correct.

Incorrect scorecards are not an unheard of occurrence, and I think that's the more likely explanation here.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Well there is the possibility that Google Earths measurements are off. I did measure a local High Schools footbal field which should be 100 yards and came up with 99.78 yards. That still doesn't mean all Google Earth maps are that accurate.

0.22 yards is easily within the margin of error of you getting your mouse on the correct pixel.  I don't think GE is going to be off by 15-25 yards, which it would have to be for that course's scorecard to be correct.

Incorrect scorecards are not an unheard of occurrence, and I think that's the more likely explanation here.

Not sure which came first in this example (i.e. the housing development or the golf course and socrecard) but inflated yardages and an inflated slope / course rating would be good for business on the real estate side of things. Just sayin'.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

Not sure which came first in this example (i.e. the housing development or the golf course and socrecard) but inflated yardages and an inflated slope / course rating would be good for business on the real estate side of things. Just sayin'.

It is my understanding the course and housing were planned from the beginning with the course being finished first. I understand there could be motives for courses to post incorrect yardages but if the USGA has rules that MUST be followed how can courses post inflated yardages? I found an article from about a month after the course opened which indicates the 4th hole was then listed as the same 439 yards so it doesn't appear to be a change to the hole.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

I understand there could be motives for courses to post incorrect yardages but if the USGA has rules that MUST be followed how can courses post inflated yardages?

I don't think there's any policing that would catch a course adding 10-15 yards to all the holes when they print the scorecard - maybe that's what happened. Or, maybe the USGA rater was a newbie and measured to the back of the greens instead of the center as required.  Or maybe GE really is off. It would be interesting to go out there with a GPS and take one's own measurements.

Just curious, is there a permanent yardage marker for each tee box at this course?

[TourSpoon]

I played a renown resort course recently that overstated its yardages dramatically (20-30 yards on some par 4s-5s).  All I kept thinking was that the fitting center must send the Europeans on the course with the latest clubs only for them to think that they gained some length (while they convert yards to meters getting even more confused).  I just wondered how many drivers got shipped overseas.  The 150s were accurate to the greens, but not from the tees.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

I played a renown resort course recently that overstated its yardages dramatically (20-30 yards on some par 4s-5s).  All I kept thinking was that the fitting center must send the Europeans on the course with the latest clubs only for them to think that they gained some length (while they convert yards to meters getting even more confused).  I just wondered how many drivers got shipped overseas.  The 150s were accurate to the greens, but not from the tees.

I've probably played the odd course with that same situation. The 250, 200,  150, and 100 markers are on the money, but the distance between the tee marker and the 250 might be off. I never really cared about those distances since I'm playing for the 150 and 20 yards either way is still golden. Not being a robot playing in a domed stadium, my clubhead speed and contact can vary shot to shot leading to a range in total distance off the tee. It's not false modesty either - a smooth swing landing in just the right (or wrong) spot on the fairway with slighly different launch conditions can be a 50 yard swing in distance (300 to 350 being the range of distance of course).

I'd imagine using Google Earth to confirm distances on a scorecard would require the course map with lines illustrating the preferred route to postion A.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'd imagine using Google Earth to confirm distances on a scorecard would require the course map with lines illustrating the preferred route to postion A.

Not really - when done as prescribed by the process here: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-12, the yardages aren't measured with preferred routes or positions in mind. Just a straight line down the center of the fairway. (If there's a dogleg, it's a straight line to the center of the fairway at the bend.)

I've used GE for mapping out strategies on many courses and the tee-to-green distances have always matched up to what the scorecard says. It's puzzling as to why, but the yardages for this particular course in PA certainly appear to be wrong.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

Just curious, is there a permanent yardage marker for each tee box at this course?

There is 1 total permanent marker listing all yardages for the different tee's on that hole. If you go back and look at hole 2 you can actually see the 1 permanent marker in the satellite image (it is right to the left of the back edge of the front cart in the image). I can't confirm or deny if the yardages on the permanent markers match the scorecard.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

There is 1 total permanent marker listing all yardages for the different tee's on that hole. If you go back and look at hole 2 you can actually see the 1 permanent marker in the satellite image (it is right to the left of the back edge of the front cart in the image). I can't confirm or deny if the yardages on the permanent markers match the scorecard.

Ah, then that's not a true permanent marker.  USGA guidelines require a marker for each set of tees for a given hole, with a single yardage on it. It's usually a circular marker embedded in the ground. If that course doesn't have those, it makes me wonder if it was ever rated properly.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

I've used GE for mapping out strategies on many courses and the tee-to-green distances have always matched up to what the scorecard says. It's puzzling as to why, but the yardages for this particular course in PA certainly appear to be wrong.

It's not the only course in the area where I find the scorecard yardages to be off.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

It's not the only course in the area where I find the scorecard yardages to be off.

Well then I can certainly see how you got your username.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

Ah, then that's not a true permanent marker.  USGA guidelines require a marker for each set of tees for a given hole, with a single yardage on it. It's usually a circular marker embedded in the ground. If that course doesn't have those, it makes me wonder if it was ever rated properly.

Maybe, maybe not. They could have permanent markers around the tee box that I have just never noticed. Some courses I recall having a block of cement embedded in the tee boxes painted the same colors as the different tees (mostly I notice this on par 3's but really haven't looked for them on Par 4/5's). The course in question does have embedded markers with yardage on the par 3's. I do not recall seeing anything embedded on the par 4 or 5 tee boxes but that doesn't mean they are absolutely not there. I am fairly sure they don't have ebmbedded markers with the yardages on the par 4/5 tee boxes but I am not positive that they don't have a blocks of cement painted blue marking the tee box location. I don't recall seeing them but honestly I have never looked for them (especially now that I have a GPS unit).

At the end of the day even if they do have permanent markers for each individual tee there doesn't appear anyway they can be accurate to the scorecard.

edit: I talked with a co-worker who has played some of the private courses in the area and he indicates they do have permanent markers for each tee on all holes. he could not confirm of any public courses that have the same markings (besides par 3's) but again he hasn't specifically tried to find them on par 4/5's.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

At the end of the day even if they do have permanent markers for each individual tee there doesn't appear anyway they can be accurate to the scorecard.

edit: I talked with a co-worker who has played some of the private courses in the area and he indicates they do have permanent markers for each tee on all holes. he could not confirm of any public courses that have the same markings (besides par 3's) but again he hasn't specifically tried to find them on par 4/5's.

I've never played a course that doesn't have separate distance markers for each tee box.  On all the munis I play (most of my courses) they're little stone/concrete blocks in the ground painted the same color as the tees they correspond to.  Some of the private (but open to the public, I've never actually played a true private/country club course) courses I play will just have little stones in the ground with the yardage etched into them, but all of them have had separate markers for each set of tees.

As to the inaccuracy of the scorecard or markers at the tees, I've done the google earth check on a couple of the courses I play regularly, using the path ruler feature to measure a path down the center of the fairway, and none of those courses have inaccurate scorecard lengths.  I get a google earth distance within just a couple yards for pretty much every hole, and for the few holes I've seen where my measured distance is off by more than a couple yards either way, more of them were marked shorter on the scorecard than the distance I found than the other way around.

This is all to say that while I understand you won't know exactly your driving average without a GPS or laser (with measuring done correctly), the complaint here that lots of people vastly overestimate their driving distance because using the marked distances from the tees and the fairway distance markers is SO unreliable doesn't make sense.  At the golf store on the trackman my driver swing speed averages maybe 106, ranges 103-110.  From sources I can find online that means my carry should be 230-260, depending on the calculator site you use.  Using the standard 10% roll addition, that means I should see my drives traveling a total distance of 255-285, which is centered exactly on what I find is my average total distance (~270, longer on good days) using the scorecard listed distances and the fairway distance markers on straight holes to estimate that distance.

If you think people's reported driver distances are wrong, it's just because people are inflating them, or only reporting their absolute best drives, thinking to themselves that's what their "real" driver distance is, or whatever.  At least in LA, the problem is not with the marked distances.

[B-Con]

Not really - when done as prescribed by the process here: [URL=http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-12,]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-12,[/URL] the yardages aren't measured with preferred routes or positions in mind. Just a straight line down the center of the fairway. (If there's a dogleg, it's a straight line to the center of the fairway at the bend.)

Thanks for the URL, I didn't know those were mandatory. (Unfortunately, there's a typo. For those who care: [URL=http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-12]http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-12[/URL].) [quote name="sacm3bill" url="/t/54379/diminished-outlandish-claims/54#post_665004"]Ah, then that's not a true permanent marker. USGA guidelines require a marker for each set of tees for a given hole, with a single yardage on it. It's usually a circular marker embedded in the ground. If that course doesn't have those, it makes me wonder if it was ever rated properly.[/quote] That's not how I read rule 12: [quote]When more than one set of tees uses a single tee pad, consider the percentage of a club's existing or anticipated play from each set of tees when determining permanent marker placement. Allocate the percentage of play to the teeing area and place each permanent marker at a point opposite the mid-point of each of the allocated areas. [/quote] From that and the rest of the rule, it seems that each tee [i]pad[/i] needs it's own marker, but within a pad multiple tees can share a marker. As long as his club's tees are on the same pad, I wouldn't question their legitimacy if they only had one permanent marker.

[x129]

No it makes a lot of sense. If you start off 400 yards away and your next shot is 150 away, it doesn't mean you hit it 250. It means you 150 from the whole but unless your path was the exact same the measurement one, your ball didn't go 250. It could have been ore ore less.  Similiarly your driver speed isn't a great indicator of distance as things like smash factor and AOA can easily result in 50+ yards difference. This isn't even counting things like tailwinds and downhills.

At the end of the day, no one will convince you that you are overestimating your drives. Use a GPS for a round or two that measures shots. Pretty much everyone I know is shocked to be 20 yards shorter than they thought.

Originally Posted by mdl

This is all to say that while I understand you won't know exactly your driving average without a GPS or laser (with measuring done correctly), the complaint here that lots of people vastly overestimate their driving distance because using the marked distances from the tees and the fairway distance markers is SO unreliable doesn't make sense.  At the golf store on the trackman my driver swing speed averages maybe 106, ranges 103-110.  From sources I can find online that means my carry should be 230-260, depending on the calculator site you use.  Using the standard 10% roll addition, that means I should see my drives traveling a total distance of 255-285, which is centered exactly on what I find is my average total distance (~270, longer on good days) using the scorecard listed distances and the fairway distance markers on straight holes to estimate that distance.

[rossvanwyk]

Sean, I must agree with your opening post. Of course there is serious inflating going on and generally its always has to do with driver distance. But I like that you added in that a round can fall apart in so many different and wonderful ways. My problem is that its gotten to the stage where nobody will believe anyone who says they drive over 250y (not that it actually matters at all who believes you or not). The truth is, some guys do hit big drives. I think the first mistake is saying "I AVERAGE x off the tee". Average is a dangerous word. But to be honest, I am surprised that so few people claim to be able to hit 250y. Now, if someone offered me 250y off the tee on the fairway 80% of the time, I would take it and run. I'm from South Africa and we work in metres here, making 250y about 228m.

Now this is going to make people rant and rave but so be it. I don't find it outlandish that people claim to drive 250y on a regular basis. It really isn't that far. I play a lot with my father at his local course and you have to use a cart there for various reasons, which are built in with GPS. I also play with my brother in law a lot who has GPS on his smartphone and has our local course on his app so we can measure accurately. I have on many occasions hit a 3W 250y, let alone driver. But its not all fun and games. Cos my game goes haywire in so many different areas. So often I will pound a beautiful drive to be a PW or less in, and I'll miss the green. I'll go for the flag instead of the middle and will overcook it and be in the sand instead of putting for birdie. Half shots are my worst. I'll leave them halfway or pump them straight over. Hell, there's a million ways I can ruin an awesome drive.

What I find harder to believe are people shooting half their handicap on a regular basis, but the handicap never seems to come down.....so, sandbagging basically. It's much easier to hit a 280y drive than it is to string an entirely amazing round relative to your handicap together.

So when people come on here saying they hit 250y+ I really think nothing of it. 250y is not a massively scary drive. It just isn't. I absolutely agree that there's a lot of misinformation and I really don't think people are trying to be untruthful the majority of the time. As stated there's many factors that can contribute to thinking you've driven further than you have. But I would imagine that a lof of the people on this forum, regardless of handicap, are driving 250+ pretty often. Not averaging though. And hitting it straight is another can of worms. Unless this entire debate is about average distance, not the odd bomb. I dunno, I just wanted to say I don't immediately cry bulldust when someone says they've hit a 250y drive, it's really not that hard to believe.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Thanks for the URL...

To give credit where due, luu5 first posted that link in post #44.

Originally Posted by B-Con

That's not how I read rule 12:

Quote:

When more than one set of tees uses a single tee pad, consider the percentage of a club's existing or anticipated play from each set of tees when determining permanent marker placement. Allocate the percentage of play to the teeing area and place each permanent marker at a point opposite the mid-point of each of the allocated areas.

From that and the rest of the rule, it seems that each tee pad needs it's own marker, but within a pad multiple tees can share a marker. As long as his club's tees are on the same pad, I wouldn't question their legitimacy if they only had one permanent marker.

Hmm, I don't read it that way. As you can see in the part I bolded, it references more than one permanent marker even on a single tee pad. They're simply differentiating from the process defined in an earlier section, where if a tee pad is for a single set of tees the marker should be placed in the middle of the teeing pad. In the quote above, they're saying that since there are more than one set of tees on a given pad, instead of putting a marker in the middle of the pad, you'd put one in the midpoint of each of the different tee areas.

I could be wrong in my interpretation, but that's how it seems to read to me. Plus, that's what I see when I play a course that has a single tee pad for different tees - there's a white permanent marker in the general area of the white tees, a blue permanent marker in the general area of the blue tees, etc.

[BuckeyeNut]

some hole yardages are definitely way off.  IE.... a hole that plays 388 on the card.  It's exactly 230 to the 125 marker.......=355  LOL.....not even close!!

I know this because I can shoot the back lip of a fairway bunker from the tee with my laser that is even with the 125marker.  The sprinkler/fairway markers are accurate, but the hole length can often be a stretch from reality.

Just because it's a 400yd par 4 (on the card) and you have 100yds to the middle of the green doesn't necessarily mean you hit a 300yd drive. LOL