A Centered Pivot Golf Swing

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

This thread helped me a lot. I see an improvement already. I play on Monday (MLK day). Let's see how it really works.

Question - You say the shoulder should always be going down and never back up. I really have a hard time making it go down when I get toward the end of the backswing. Is it fair to say that, based on my flexibility, when I get to a point where I can no longer comfortably move my shoulder down without really working hard at it, this is probably where my backswing should end? For me that would be well before what I'm used to, but I also feel like I have an "overswinging" problem.

Thanks,

So it sounds like your body stops rotating and your arms keep going?  Yes we've seen that with many golfers.  First off make sure the feet are flared 20-30 degrees.  Then on the backswing don't be afraid to let your hips turn, they control what the shoulder do.  To help the hips, allow the rear knee to decrease in flex and the lead knee to increase in flex.  This thread is a good resource

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55080/myth-of-maintaining-address-flexion-in-the-rear-knee

Example of flaring the feet

[mmoan2]

Originally Posted by mvmac

So it sounds like your body stops rotating and your arms keep going?  Yes we've seen that with many golfers.  First off make sure the feet are flared 20-30 degrees.  Then on the backswing don't be afraid to let your hips turn, they control what the shoulder do.  To help the hips, allow the rear knee to decrease in flex and the lead knee to increase in flex.  This thread is a good resource

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55080/myth-of-maintaining-address-flexion-in-the-rear-knee

Example of flaring the feet

Thanks for the quick response. I don;t think it's so much that my arms keep going, it's that I have trouble making a full 90 degree turn without doing some funky stuff - collapsing my left knee to free up tension, dropping my lead shoulder forward (I saw you post some picture of Steve Elkington "exaggerating" that motion and I was thinking 'Man, that looks like me sometimes and I'm not trying to exaggerate anything!'). I see a big guy like Craig Stadler (I'm about 6'2, 280 right now) and wonder if I just don't have the ability to make a 90 degree turn right now. I'm sure it's in me because it once was, but not until I drop 70 pounds and work on my flexibility. My point was, I guess, when do you know your backswing should be finished? It can't just be a 90 degree shoulder turn for everyone (not that you implied that).

Another thing - I've seen you mention several times, as have many other on this forum, about how you should flare the RIGHT foot out much more than I'm used to. I read in the book "Swing Like a Pro" back when I first started this charade, and also heard from a pro I took lessons from, that turning the right foot out more than 5 or 10 degrees promotes too much hip rotation going back, which decreases torque as the torso coils around the hips going back and therefore sacrifices power. This makes sense to me, as I saw some golf special with Jamie Sadlowski and it showed how, whereas with a "normal" scratch golfer, the hip/shoulder turn ratio is around 2-1 (90-45 deg), Sadlowski was more like a 3-1 (135-45). I've also seen lots of face-on pictures of pros and many have little right foot flare. Less hip turn, more shoulder turn = more power. Any credence to this?

I've always heard that the LEFT foot is supposed to be 25 or so degrees open to promote clearing of the hips toward and after impact. Also, sometimes I feel that I want to restrict my right hip rotation because if I try to turn them too much, I get out of control coming back through on the downswing.

Soon I'll post a decent swing vid in the member swings section for some help. Thanks again, MJM

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

Thanks for the quick response. I don;t think it's so much that my arms keep going, it's that I have trouble making a full 90 degree turn without doing some funky stuff - collapsing my left knee to free up tension, dropping my lead shoulder forward (I saw you post some picture of Steve Elkington "exaggerating" that motion and I was thinking 'Man, that looks like me sometimes and I'm not trying to exaggerate anything!'). I see a big guy like Craig Stadler (I'm about 6'2, 280 right now) and wonder if I just don't have the ability to make a 90 degree turn right now. I'm sure it's in me because it once was, but not until I drop 70 pounds and work on my flexibility. My point was, I guess, when do you know your backswing should be finished? It can't just be a 90 degree shoulder turn for everyone (not that you implied that).

Another thing - I've seen you mention several times, as have many other on this forum, about how you should flare the RIGHT foot out much more than I'm used to. I read in the book "Swing Like a Pro" back when I first started this charade, and also heard from a pro I took lessons from, that turning the right foot out more than 5 or 10 degrees promotes too much hip rotation going back, which decreases torque as the torso coils around the hips going back and therefore sacrifices power. This makes sense to me, as I saw some golf special with Jamie Sadlowski and it showed how, whereas with a "normal" scratch golfer, the hip/shoulder turn ratio is around 2-1 (90-45 deg), Sadlowski was more like a 3-1 (135-45). I've also seen lots of face-on pictures of pros and many have little right foot flare. Less hip turn, more shoulder turn = more power. Any credence to this?

I've always heard that the LEFT foot is supposed to be 25 or so degrees open to promote clearing of the hips toward and after impact. Also, sometimes I feel that I want to restrict my right hip rotation because if I try to turn them too much, I get out of control coming back through on the downswing.

Soon I'll post a decent swing vid in the member swings section for some help. Thanks again, MJM

I'm just heading out right now but wanted to share these two vids.  I'll post more later...

Here's a big guy who can turn past 90 degrees

And a quick, simple vid on one of the reasons to flare the feet.

[sk golf]

Dana just served some knowledge

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

Thanks for the quick response. I don;t think it's so much that my arms keep going, it's that I have trouble making a full 90 degree turn without doing some funky stuff - collapsing my left knee to free up tension, dropping my lead shoulder forward (I saw you post some picture of Steve Elkington "exaggerating" that motion and I was thinking 'Man, that looks like me sometimes and I'm not trying to exaggerate anything!'). I see a big guy like Craig Stadler (I'm about 6'2, 280 right now) and wonder if I just don't have the ability to make a 90 degree turn right now. I'm sure it's in me because it once was, but not until I drop 70 pounds and work on my flexibility. My point was, I guess, when do you know your backswing should be finished? It can't just be a 90 degree shoulder turn for everyone (not that you implied that).

Another thing - I've seen you mention several times, as have many other on this forum, about how you should flare the RIGHT foot out much more than I'm used to. I read in the book "Swing Like a Pro" back when I first started this charade, and also heard from a pro I took lessons from, that turning the right foot out more than 5 or 10 degrees promotes too much hip rotation going back, which decreases torque as the torso coils around the hips going back and therefore sacrifices power. This makes sense to me, as I saw some golf special with Jamie Sadlowski and it showed how, whereas with a "normal" scratch golfer, the hip/shoulder turn ratio is around 2-1 (90-45 deg), Sadlowski was more like a 3-1 (135-45). I've also seen lots of face-on pictures of pros and many have little right foot flare. Less hip turn, more shoulder turn = more power. Any credence to this?

I've always heard that the LEFT foot is supposed to be 25 or so degrees open to promote clearing of the hips toward and after impact. Also, sometimes I feel that I want to restrict my right hip rotation because if I try to turn them too much, I get out of control coming back through on the downswing.

Soon I'll post a decent swing vid in the member swings section for some help. Thanks again, MJM

It might be a mobility issue for you, can't say for sure, but there are big guys that can turn 90 degrees.  That's why the feet flares are important.  They allow the rear knee to decrease in flex so the hips can turn.  If for some reason you can't turn, then do it the best you can.  Here are some drills I just recorded.

Originally Posted by mmoan2

Another thing - I've seen you mention several times, as have many other on this forum, about how you should flare the RIGHT foot out much more than I'm used to. I read in the book "Swing Like a Pro" back when I first started this charade, and also heard from a pro I took lessons from, that turning the right foot out more than 5 or 10 degrees promotes too much hip rotation going back, which decreases torque as the torso coils around the hips going back and therefore sacrifices power. This makes sense to me, as I saw some golf special with Jamie Sadlowski and it showed how, whereas with a "normal" scratch golfer, the hip/shoulder turn ratio is around 2-1 (90-45 deg), Sadlowski was more like a 3-1 (135-45). I've also seen lots of face-on pictures of pros and many have little right foot flare. Less hip turn, more shoulder turn = more power. Any credence to this?

Very rare that you see too much hip rotation.  Most players don't turn enough, thus making it hard to turn the torso/shoulders 90 degrees.  No, the less you turn your hips does not equal more speed.  Check out Bubba's hip turn, very similar to what Sam Snead did.  Not much restriction here.

[JetFan1983]

I like to think that my L.O.F.T. partly inspired the above new videos

[mmoan2]

Originally Posted by mvmac

It might be a mobility issue for you, can't say for sure, but there are big guys that can turn 90 degrees.  That's why the feet flares are important.  They allow the rear knee to decrease in flex so the hips can turn.  If for some reason you can't turn, then do it the best you can.  Here are some drills I just recorded.

Very rare that you see too much hip rotation.  Most players don't turn enough, thus making it hard to turn the torso/shoulders 90 degrees.  No, the less you turn your hips does not equal more speed.  Check out Bubba's hip turn, very similar to what Sam Snead did.  Not much restriction here.

Thanks all for the input. That first drill about keeping the head steady looks interesting.

[boogielicious]

Dave Wedzik talks about this in the 5 Keys DVD, DVD 5 Lessons.  He uses the sensation of standing up in the back swing and feeling the right side stretch upward toward the top of the backswing (he explains it better than I).  I worked on it this the last week.  Doing it slowly, like Mike in the video above, I felt that as I reached the point where I felt I could not get my left shoulder to rotate more, I stretched my right shoulder higher.  This increased rotation a bit and kept my head centered.

Second, Man is Bubba flexible!  I think he would have been a contortionist if he wasn't a golfer!  His elbows were almost touching at the top of the backswing.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I like to think that my L.O.F.T. partly inspired the above new videos

lol just been procrastinating getting some done.  I actually filmed one just like this about two weeks ago but there was something about it I didn't like.  I've got about five or six filmed, just need to put them together.

[gwlee7]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I like to think that my L.O.F.T. partly inspired the above new videos

You wanna see L.O.F.T., you just wait till I start uploading swings to the member's swing forum again.  I haven't been able to play or practice much over the past few months but things are starting to clear back up.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by gwlee7

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I like to think that my L.O.F.T. partly inspired the above new videos

You wanna see L.O.F.T., you just wait till I start uploading swings to the member's swing forum again.  I haven't been able to play or practice much over the past few months but things are starting to clear back up.

Lol, I'm assuming you are still having trouble with left tilting on the backswing? Kind of reminds me of my world of never being able to have pitch elbow or never stopping my early extension.

Originally Posted by mvmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I like to think that my L.O.F.T. partly inspired the above new videos

lol just been procrastinating getting some done.  I actually filmed one just like this about two weeks ago but there was something about it I didn't like.  I've got about five or six filmed, just need to put them together.

So you're saying my L.O.F.T. inspired nothing? That figures

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

So you're saying my L.O.F.T. inspired nothing? That figures

Inspired me to finally get the video done I had a nightmare that you started over doing it lol

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by mvmac

I had a nightmare that you started over doing it lol

Let's hope not, but we'll find out.

Great videos.

[gwlee7]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Lol, I'm assuming you are still having trouble with left tilting on the backswing? Kind of reminds me of my world of never being able to have pitch elbow or never stopping my early extension.

Not left tilting enough is my "fall back" position.

[Gaber]

I was just curious guys - if when you are making a more centered pivot when you have reached your backswing does the club have to be parallel to the ground --- depending on the club (shorter irons shorter, longer irons, woods, driver parallel) Let me know - I have noticed that I have been doing a reverse pivot but have always stayed centered until my lower left side of my back started to hurt from playing at a friends simulator   -- im finding out that I move just a bit to the right (right hander) but not enough like Mike's video of the head moving that far back! I also find that when I move my weight 55/45 my hands follow and they are parallel to my left leg compared being centered is that okay? I usually will do this manually 50/50 weight and push my hands forward closing the face (this type of action has decreased me hitting it fat, leaning 55/45 I've noticed that I have had some "fat mat shots")

I'll start my backswing and shift just a bit, enough to feel like I'm 50/50 in the backswing - does that sound right to you guys? And when I do the shaft drill along my shoulder line when I bend down do I want the club end to be pointing at the ball or closer to my feet (inbetween the ball and feet)?

Thanks

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Gaber

I was just curious guys - if when you are making a more centered pivot when you have reached your backswing does the club have to be parallel to the ground --- depending on the club (shorter irons shorter, longer irons, woods, driver parallel)

No shaft doesn't have to be parallel to the ground with any club.  Some pros are short, parallel, past parallel.

Originally Posted by Gaber

Let me know - I have noticed that I have been doing a reverse pivot but have always stayed centered until my lower left side of my back started to hurt from playing at a friends simulator   -- im finding out that I move just a bit to the right (right hander) but not enough like Mike's video of the head moving that far back! I also find that when I move my weight 55/45 my hands follow and they are parallel to my left leg compared being centered is that okay? I usually will do this manually 50/50 weight and push my hands forward closing the face (this type of action has decreased me hitting it fat, leaning 55/45 I've noticed that I have had some "fat mat shots")

For the reverse pivot, check out the videos here with the title "Key #1 Steady Head".  Per the highlighted part, you're talking about at address?  Yes I'd rather see the hands a bit forward rather than the shaft in a straight line.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/61376/5sk-video-thread/36#post_806958

Originally Posted by Gaber

I'll start my backswing and shift just a bit, enough to feel like I'm 50/50 in the backswing - does that sound right to you guys? And when I do the shaft drill along my shoulder line when I bend down do I want the club end to be pointing at the ball or closer to my feet (inbetween the ball and feet)?

Thanks

I think generally 50/50 can be a good feel but is also a personal thing.  Some people feel 50/50 and move the head down and forward, some feel 50/50 and translate the head right.  In reality if you keep the head relatively steady, you're going to add pressure into your trail foot no matter what your feel is.  Rear leg decreasing in flex increases pressure.

Good thread to check out

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64993/weight-forward-using-swingcatalyst-and-sam-balance-lab-to-explain-pressure-throughout-the-swing

[Gaber]

Originally Posted by mvmac

No shaft doesn't have to be parallel to the ground with any club.  Some pros are short, parallel, past parallel.

For the reverse pivot, check out the videos here with the title "Key #1 Steady Head".  Per the highlighted part, you're talking about at address?  Yes I'd rather see the hands a bit forward rather than the shaft in a straight line.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/61376/5sk-video-thread/36#post_806958

I think generally 50/50 can be a good feel but is also a personal thing.  Some people feel 50/50 and move the head down and forward, some feel 50/50 and translate the head right.  In reality if you keep the head relatively steady, you're going to add pressure into your trail foot no matter what your feel is.  Rear leg decreasing in flex increases pressure.

Good thread to check out

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64993/weight-forward-using-swingcatalyst-and-sam-balance-lab-to-explain-pressure-throughout-the-swing

Thanks Mike!

[saevel25]

One of the better videos Mr. Crossfield has put out. I like showing the slight axis tilt (right shoulder bellow the left), and how he shows that right hip going back and up.