My favorite drills for hands ahead of clubhead

[Tom]

Iacass, Can you handle that?

Course: Bears Best, Suwanee, Ga Start Time: 1/9/2012, 10:39 AM Duration: 3:30 Weather: 56℉, Clear, Humidity: 93%, Wind: S at 5 mph Generated By: Easy Scorecard Pro

HOLE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG HCP Back (72.5/140) 439 358 167 364 428 169 586 422 572 3505 362 167 536 442 574 375 190 439 484 3569 7074 Stroke Index 3 13 15 17 1 9 11 5 7 12 4 16 6 8 18 14 10 2 PAR 4 4 3 4 4 3 5 4 5 36 4 3 5 4 5 4 3 4 4 36 72 Tom 4 3 3 3 4 3 4 4 5 33 3 2 4 4 5 3 3 5 4 33 66 3.67 +2.2 66 Stableford 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG HCP Tom 2 4 2 4 2 2 4 2 2 24 4 4 4 2 2 4 2 1 2 25 49 2.72 +2.2 PUTT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG Tom 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2 2 13 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 2 13 26 1.44 FWY HIT 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT % Tom X X X X X 5 X X X X X X X 7 12 85.71 G.I.R. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT % Tom X X X X X X X 7 X X X X X X X 7 14 77.78 Scrambling 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT % Tom X X 2 X 1 3 75.00 SAND SHOTS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 OUT 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 IN TOT AVG Tom 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00

Eagle

Birdie

Bogey

Double Bogey

Triple Bogey or more

GIR Putt Average:
Tom:  1.50

Handicap Analysis:

Tom: Using manual handicap index of +2.2.

[Mr. Desmond]

Didn't think I'd run into posts shouting  'my shaft is bigger than yours' around here.

I was wrong.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Tom

iacas,

you're a hacker aren't you? a complete chopper. you're a hater too...

you're a stack and tilt teacher and you can't handle someone (like me) with a better game/swing than you. you play golf swing (S&T;); i play golf.

i'll play you anytime for cash (big cash), or reputation. bring it!! bash all you want - you're a chopper. i saw that drill you posted where you were acting as if you were hitting "down hill" to show how to get your hands ahead. you don't know what you're doing. and you give lessons? to hackers no doubt...

bring it chopper.

Shouldn't you be out earning millions on tour instead of wasting time on golf forums screaming "my c*** is bigger than yours" (to paraphrase)?

I'm really not sure why your reply was so extreme to be fair, all that's happening here is a discussion on the swing and whether your drills are good for people to use. Just because your actual swing and your drills are shown to be different you're throwing your toys out of the pram? Grow up.

[Brunogolf]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Shouldn't you be out earning millions on tour instead of wasting time on golf forums screaming "my c*** is bigger than yours" (to paraphrase)?

I'm really not sure why your reply was so extreme to be fair, all that's happening here is a discussion on the swing and whether your drills are good for people to use. Just because your actual swing and your drills are shown to be different you're throwing your toys out of the pram? Grow up.

In reading posts on this site sometimes you can see someone want to call out the moderators, same thing happened at BSG.  As an outsider it would appear the moderators/owners may not be good players but they know S&T; inside out and that does lend creditbility but.... To some hearing I know more then you would cause that kinda response.

[Harmonious]

Note to Tom: As a very good golfer, you have a lot to offer the folks here.  Your drills and tips are worthwhile, even if some will dismiss them.  That's true of lots of instructional commentary, you take it with a grain of salt.  Maybe it works for some, but not for all.  I for one want to hear all I can from plus handicappers.  After all, you didn't get where you are by accident.

That said, don't come off as a arrogant SOB. That doesn't play well.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Note to Tom: As a very good golfer, you have a lot to offer the folks here.  Your drills and tips are worthwhile, even if some will dismiss them.  That's true of lots of instructional commentary, you take it with a grain of salt.  Maybe it works for some, but not for all.  I for one want to hear all I can from plus handicappers.  After all, you didn't get where you are by accident.

That said, don't come off as a arrogant SOB. That doesn't play well.

He'd have a lot to offer us if he actually DID in his swing what he was suggesting we all do in his drills. I'd be the first one out on the practice range trying out his drills if that were the case. Unfortunately, he is trying to explain in words what he feels he is doing but failing as he is actually doing something quite different. You seem to have missed Erik's analysis of his swing.

Therefore, Tom is better off NOT starting threads with written instructional advice but simply posting his swing and saying, "do this suckers, I'm a +2.2 handicap index!". I'd respect him for it. But after reading his last couple of posts, and as you quite rightly point out, he is now coming across as an arrogant SOB and has lost all my respect.

I still find it incredible how some forum members still side with a random troll, spewing random bollox about the swing, rather than with the moderators/admins of this site who are giving FREE swing information backed to the hilt with data, numbers, measurements, facts etc. Brunogolf says they "may not be good golfers but know S&T; inside out". Excuse me? I got in trouble the last time I spoke for them, so I'll let them tell you their handicap index/playing ability, but I think you'll find they are not hacks.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Brunogolf

In reading posts on this site sometimes you can see someone want to call out the moderators, same thing happened at BSG.  As an outsider it would appear the moderators/owners may not be good players but they know S&T; inside out and that does lend creditbility but.... To some hearing I know more then you would cause that kinda response.

First, don't compare the mods here to the former carnival barker-owners at bsg.

Second, where do you get the "it would appear the moderators/owners may not be good players" comment?

As a member not affiliated with the owner-mods (does that make me an "outsider"?), I don't see how you jump to  your "good players" comment. And I've been on this site consistently for about a year.

At the same time, I don't see the relevancy of the comment. The OP suggested drills and told people to do things that he appears not to be doing in his swing -- which makes one shake their head in wonder. Maybe the OP should just play and keep his mouth shut about instruction because it appears he lacks knowledge about his own swing . If he can't analyze his own swing ... need we say more?

[newtogolf]

There's a reason why the top pro's have swing coaches and aren't swing coaches beyond the obvious reasons.  There's a big difference between being able to do something well and teach somebody to do something well.  The OP may very well be a +2 golfer, but he may not be a very good instructor or be able to communicate what he's doing or thinks he's doing.

It's also obvious he considers Stack and Tilt as an inferior swing approach and wants to troll the mods here into a online battle.  I'm don't use the Stack and Tilt but still have learned a lot about golf from this forum, so much that I felt obligated to give back and become a suppporter of the site.  I'd suggest Tom re-evalute his approach and decide if he wants to contribute to the forum constructively or engage in childish banter.  I personally hope he chooses to provide some constructive contributions, but we'll see.

[Ernest Jones]

I'm a total beginner but I can honestly say that I was getting NOWHERE until I learn to aggressively slide my hips towards the target, I'm not even thinking about the turn because it seems to happen all on its own as long as I slide forward hard enough. I also used to slice EVERY BALL because I was spinning my hips and coming OTT, since I started working on getting those hips forward I almost CAN'T slice. I am also getting a TON more distance and the ball is making a gorgeous little "SNIK" sound because I'm pretty consistently hitting the ball first.

Tom may have something to offer but I doubt he'll be around long enough for us to find out. If he is intent on being an ASS I'll probably just block him. CIAO BYE!

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I still find it incredible how some forum members still side with a random troll, spewing random bollox about the swing, rather than with the moderators/admins of this site who are giving FREE swing information backed to the hilt with data, numbers, measurements, facts etc. Brunogolf says they "may not be good golfers but know S&T; inside out". Excuse me? I got in trouble the last time I spoke for them, so I'll let them tell you their handicap index/playing ability, but I think you'll find they are not hacks.

As you know, there is more than one way to make a good golf swing.  I, for one, want to hear ALL viewpoints on the subject, such as swing thoughts or feels (real or unreal) that might give me an insight that could help my game.  I suspect that many people immediately dismissed and criticized Tom because his swing thoughts differed from the accepted "norm" around here. He initially came here with something to offer, was ridiculed (by 15 cappers, no less), so he unfortunately opted to strike back at Erik. I imagine he'll decide to move on from the Sand Trap.

Whether Tom does or does not keep his right leg totally flexed in practice is irrelevant.  What is important is that he advised to try to keep the right leg flexed. This is not outlandish advice. Many good instructors advise the same thing in order to maintain an athletic position through the swing. Even though physiology requires it to straighten a bit during the backswing, it's not necessarily a bad thing to strive to keep the flexion.

I'm certainly not condoning Tom's latest ranting toward Erik but I wouldn't dismiss his ideas as "random bollox", whatever that means.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

He initially came here with something to offer, was ridiculed (by 15 cappers, no less), so he unfortunately opted to strike back at Erik.

I assume that remark is directed at me (the only 15 capper I can see on the first page) so I'd suggest taking another look at my post. I haven't ridiculed anyone at all and wouldn't even think about doing so as I'm FAR from being a great golfer. My comment was simply to say that the drills posted are classic old skool golf instruction and that one drill in particular would likely be unsuitable for those who already over-spin their hips; i.e. a large number of amateurs.

You're absolutely right though, how dare I express my own thoughts or opinions when I'm only a 15 handicap as I clearly know nothing.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tom

you're a hacker aren't you? a complete chopper. you're a hater too...

In order... no, no, and no.

Originally Posted by Tom

you're a stack and tilt teacher and you can't handle someone (like me) with a better game/swing than you. you play golf swing (S&T;); i play golf.

I'm not a stack and tilt instructor. I learned a lot from Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer, and Dave Wedzik. We went with it for awhile, but we've continued to evolve in our understanding of what makes a good golf swing. Dave will tell you that most of what he knows he learned from Mike Bender (Bennett was Bender's teaching assistant back in the day, which is how Dave met Bennett). Bender is a Mac guy. My own thoughts on the golf swing are an amalgamation of everything I've learned, from Dave, Mike, Mike, Andy, Mac, James, the science that's out there, TGM, and thousands of articles, posts, questions, comments, telephone conversations, etc. I've had with hundreds of golf pros.

My sincerest apologies at making the target on my back so messy with reality.

Originally Posted by Tom

i saw that drill you posted where you were acting as if you were hitting "down hill" to show how to get your hands ahead. you don't know what you're doing. and you give lessons? to hackers no doubt...

Good one. I've never given a drill where I'm "acting as if" I'm "hitting down hill". Oops. And yep, I give lessons. To fellow pros, to U.S. Open qualifiers. To kids on college golf teams. To women. To hackers. To kids. To senior tour players. I've been on the range at the PGA Tour and talked with Tour players, helped them out, but that doesn't interest me. I like my family and I like where I live, and I like helping people enjoy their life more by playing better golf.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

As you know, there is more than one way to make a good golf swing. I, for one, want to hear ALL viewpoints on the subject, such as swing thoughts or feels (real or unreal) that might give me an insight that could help my game.

Of course there's more than one way to make a good golf swing. If you think I believe otherwise, you've not been paying much attention to what or how I teach. Don't get me wrong - there are some very clearly defined geometries that need to be obeyed - but beyond that, there's a lot of room for variation. I can explain Lee Trevino's swing as much as Jack Nicklaus's, but both had a lot in common.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I suspect that many people immediately dismissed and criticized Tom because his swing thoughts differed from the accepted "norm" around here.

I think that people here rightly pointed out that Tom didn't have any reasons for the things he was saying. I think it's wise to be skeptical when someone says "do this" but doesn't tell you why. It's even wiser to be skeptical when someone says "do this because it will lead to x" when their experience or knowledge tells them it will do the opposite of "x".

And really, let's be cautious not to draw too much from, what, the posts of four or five people? Most people here seem to have ignored Tom's post(s) or this thread. Again, in my opinion, rightfully so.

Being a good golfer - or becoming one - requires a really good filter. You've got to filter out bad advice from the good because each time you incorporate bad advice you experience a setback. In my opinion, "do this" type of advice that fails to answer the "why?" question is best avoided.

That is particularly true when that advice varies from the accepted "norm" on the PGA Tour. I'm not a fan of using individual PGA Tour players as proof of anything (for example, Dustin Johnson could hit it farther than Zach Johnson doing just about any kind of thing in his swing), but when 99% of the PGA Tour does something, it's typically a pretty good example.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Whether Tom does or does not keep his right leg totally flexed in practice is irrelevant.

Okay. Tell you what, H. Let's just ignore what good golfers actually DO in their golf swings, and just go by whatever bizarre feelings they tell us. Let's ignore physics, biomechanics, geometry and just rely on what some random guy tells us to do, without any reasoning and without even demonstrating it himself in his own swing.

That sounds like a great approach to golf instruction. Let's ignore what PGA Tour winners actually do in their golf swings. Let's ignore common sense. Let's ignore what we know about biomechanics, physics, science, our own history with the game, and all that hooey. That's all irrelevant information. Instead, let's just go with what people SAY, not what they actually DO. That'll get us somewhere.

Give me a break. If you want to attempt to play golf by taking random things and trying them out, be my guest. I see that as inefficient at best.

Golf instruction is finally becoming more and more scientific. No longer are we limited to what people SAY they do. First came high-speed cameras. Then 3D body/biomechanics devices. Then the science of impact collisions and true ball flight properties, and machines that embody that knowledge in Trackman and Flightscope. Science is advancing, and we no longer have to listen to what people SAY, we can understand at a deeper level what they DO.

Harmonious, I'm glad to have you on the site, but I'm not sure you've ever really offered your own thoughts on the golf swing. You sit back, you play contrarian to "the norm," and you don't put your own ideas or concepts out there. You don't have a "My Swing" thread. You don't illustrate, explain, or theorize. You simply nitpick and express disgust with "the norm" while celebrating anyone and everyone - despite how crazy or stupid their ideas - who says anything against "the norm." It's disappointing. It's easy. I've said time and time again that I welcome challenges to my information, but all yours seem to amount to are "there's more than one way to hit a golf ball." That doesn't help anyone. It doesn't have any information in it. Instead your position as "anti-norm" has led you into some weird places where you're backing a guy who doesn't even do what he says he wants you to do. If you're going to play contrarian, buddy, actually do it. Come out with guns blazing. Stop doing just barely enough to provoke mini reactions from people and start to provoke thoughts from people.

Again, glad to have you on the site. I just hope to see more of you - with more information and less "contrarian for the heck of it." Stick your neck out. Mix it up a little.

[Harmonious]

Erik, you must have read a different post than mine.  My only intent was to caution folks not to dismiss any and all info from a plus handicap, but I'm on your side.  He was wrong to blast a couple of shots at you.

Since you question my being here:

1) As far as full swing ideas, I'm not in the business, I don't have high speed video equipment, I don't want to search high and low to find photos to prove or disprove.  I disagree with some (but certainly not all) of what is taught here, but I have stayed away from most of those discussions. When I do disagree, as with the real importance of knowing the ball flight laws upside and down, or whether there should be a weight transfer in the backswing, or whether there are real fundamentals to the golf swing, or whether you should try to maintain flex in your rear leg, I have commented. A lot of the time, it has been the law of diminishing returns; not worth the effort for the flak I've gotten.

2) My swing has flaws, but I somehow hack it around to a plus handicap (I probably should have changed my old handicap in my profile, currently +0.4).  I'm really not interested in posting my flawed swing in the hopes of gathering commentary from guys that I would have to give 5-10 strokes a side to.

3) You must have missed my numerous posts to guys who ask about their short game.  I think I've got a reasonable short game and I thought I had offered a number of good suggestions. Maybe you didn't think so.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Whether Tom does or does not keep his right leg totally flexed in practice is irrelevant.  What is important is that he advised to try to keep the right leg flexed. This is not outlandish advice. Many good instructors advise the same thing in order to maintain an athletic position through the swing. Even though physiology requires it to straighten a bit during the backswing, it's not necessarily a bad thing to strive to keep the flexion.

Of course it is relevant, it is the reason for the difference in opinions. Tom is telling people to keep their right leg flexed, when he himself isn't do that. Do you not see the contradiction? Advising people to try and keep their right leg flexed is outlandish advice unless they are locking their right leg on the backswing. A very rare move as 1) golfers have worked out very quickly they could hurt themselves doing this and 2) they've had instructors through the ages screaming at them to increase their X factor by keeping it as flexed as possible.

If physiology requires the right leg to straighten a bit during the backswing, why not simply tell people to "straighten their right leg a bit on the backswing" rather than "although physiology requires that the right leg straighten a bit on the backswing, try and keep it flexed"? Forgive me, I am coming at this through the eyes of a teacher and your last sentence really baffles me.

[newtogolf]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read here and other places that drills are sometimes exaggerated motions to reinforce an attribute we want to adopt as part of our normal swing.  If that's the case then I'm not sure why you're baffled that the drill tries to get the golfer to focus on maintaining a flex in the leg.  I also don't understand why the images of Toms swing detracts from the value of the drill unless the images shown came from a video where the intent was to demonstrate that specific drill.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Of course it is relevant, it is the reason for the difference in opinions. Tom is telling people to keep their right leg flexed, when he himself isn't do that. Do you not see the contradiction? Advising people to try and keep their right leg flexed is outlandish advice unless they are locking their right leg on the backswing. A very rare move as 1) golfers have worked out very quickly they could hurt themselves doing this and 2) they've had instructors through the ages screaming at them to increase their X factor by keeping it as flexed as possible.

If physiology requires the right leg to straighten a bit during the backswing, why not simply tell people to "straighten their right leg a bit on the backswing" rather than "although physiology requires that the right leg straighten a bit on the backswing, try and keep it flexed"? Forgive me, I am coming at this through the eyes of a teacher and your last sentence really baffles me.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read here and other places that drills are sometimes exaggerated motions to reinforce an attribute we want to adopt as part of our normal swing.  If that's the case then I'm not sure why you're baffled that the drill tries to get the golfer to focus on maintaining a flex in the leg.  I also don't understand why the images of Toms swing detracts from the value of the drill unless the images shown came from a video where the intent was to demonstrate that specific drill.

Because there's not an epidemic of people overly straightening the right knee. If anything, people keep the right knee too flexed, which limits hip turn and slant, which limits shoulder turn (and slant). Maybe that's local to Erie + the people we teach from the various other states and countries, and maybe elsewhere golfers all decrease flex in the knee too much... but I doubt it.

If a golfer isn't doing something enough, you don't exaggerate him doing it less.

Harmonious, I'll send you a PM, because my response is kind of off topic, but the long and the short of it is this: you seem to place a lot of faith in what people SAY simply due to their handicap or their ranking as a "great" instructor, while I put a lot of faith in science, biomechanics, physics, geometry, and what those good golfers actually DO .

[Ernest Jones]

I think it's a drag that Tom is most likely long gone, after firing off some rather inflammatory and combatative posts, and yet the gang is left to quibble amongst ourselves.

I suggest people take what they like from this thread and leave the rest.

[newtogolf]

Thanks Erik, I appreciate the explanation.

Originally Posted by iacas

Because there's not an epidemic of people overly straightening the right knee. If anything, people keep the right knee too flexed, which limits hip turn and slant, which limits shoulder turn (and slant). Maybe that's local to Erie + the people we teach from the various other states and countries, and maybe elsewhere golfers all decrease flex in the knee too much... but I doubt it.

If a golfer isn't doing something enough, you don't exaggerate him doing it less.