Ball Flight Laws, PGA of America and Dr. Gary Wiren

[Tiger90]

Originally Posted by Hoganwoods

I've just recently learned the correct ball flight laws myself and at first i had problems visualizing it. Where I think you are having a problem is the perception of the clubface being wide open compared to your swing path, it's not.  I think it's suppose to be open to the target line and closed to your swing path. Depending how you setup and swing inside to out, the clubface may actually look square or a bit closed to you at setup, but it is still open to the target line. So in theory telling people to close the clubface and swing right will produce a draw but not push draws...pull or straight draws. Maybe this is the confusion? Or maybe I'm confused...

That makes sense hahahaha.  Now i understand.

I couldn't visualize it either, but when you say open to the target, and closed to the swing path, then that makes way more sense.  I thought they were saying open to the path...

I guess i was wrong lol, sorry guys, it just made zero sense when i thought of it the other way, and i couldnt believe you guys were trying to defend that lol.

Thanks Hoganwoods!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Hoganwoods

I've just recently learned the correct ball flight laws myself and at first i had problems visualizing it. Where I think you are having a problem is the perception of the clubface being wide open compared to your swing path, it's not.  I think it's suppose to be open to the target line and closed to your swing path. Depending how you setup and swing inside to out, the clubface may actually look square or a bit closed to you at setup, but it is still open to the target line. So in theory telling people to close the clubface and swing right will produce a draw but not push draws...pull or straight draws. Maybe this is the confusion? Or maybe I'm confused...

Yes, if your trying to hit a draw the club face has to be aimed RIGHT of the intended target.  The path will be further out the right, let's say clubface open/aimed right 2* and path out 5* will be a push draw.  A aimed online or left of the target will also draw if the path is further out.  But not a draw anyone wants.  Got to curve these shots into the target not away from it.  When the majority of golf instructors say the only reason for a slice is an open clubface they DO NOT mean open to the path just aimed right of the target.  Because remember they are operating under the assumption that the ball ends up where the face is pointed and path determines initial direction.

Originally Posted by Tiger90

I couldn't visualize it either, but when you say open to the target, and closed to the swing path, then that makes way more sense.  I thought they were saying open to the path...

I guess i was wrong lol, sorry guys, it just made zero sense when i thought of it the other way, and i couldnt believe you guys were trying to defend that lol.

We're nuts about golf, but not crazy in general

The lingo can get confusing sometimes, thanks for taking the time to learn it.

[Jooma]

A golf ball CANNOT see the club path. The only thing a golf ball feels is the golf club face angle in relation to the intended direction. The direction of the golf ball flight is a resultant of the golf club face angle that imparts the SPIN on the ball and the club path that imparts DIRECTION. If the club face is perpendicular to the golf club path there is no side spin and the balls flies in the direction of the golf club path.

The rest is a combination of these two factors.

[jamo]

[SIZE=10pt][COLOR=000000][FONT=arial]A golf ball CANNOT see the club path. The only thing a golf ball feels is the golf club face angle in relation to the intended direction. The direction of the golf ball flight is a resultant of the golf club face angle that imparts the SPIN on the ball and the club path that imparts DIRECTION. If the club face is perpendicular to the golf club path there is no side spin and the balls flies in the direction of the golf club path.[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt][COLOR=000000][FONT=arial]The rest is a combination of these two factors.[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]

Some parts right, some parts factually not. If you read (this thread, as well as others), I think you'll see which are which.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yes, if your trying to hit a draw the club face has to be aimed RIGHT of the intended target.  The path will be further out the right, let's say clubface open/aimed right 2* and path out 5* will be a push draw.

Question:  If your target is always the flag, do you aim at the flag, then attempt to swing 5* further out to the right than your normal swing?  Wouldn't it be easier to aim at the center of the green, and not alter your swing? To hit a draw, you would "close" the clubface 2*, but not have to adjust your swing.  The results would ideally be the same, but continually trying to alter a swing to vary your shot shape seems much more difficult. Maybe it's just semantics.

Originally Posted by mvmac

When the majority of golf instructors say the only reason for a slice is an open clubface they DO NOT mean open to the path just aimed right of the target.

Huh? Where did you get this? Everyone I have ever talked to about this has stated exactly that. A slice results from an open clubface in relation to the swingpath.

Originally Posted by mvmac

The lingo can get confusing sometimes, thanks for taking the time to learn it.

Your lingo can be confusing for those of us whose idea of "target" is where we are aiming, not where we want the ball to end up.  And judging from Tiger90's initial commentary, his idea of "target" is/was the same.

[mvmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Question:  If your target is always the flag, do you aim at the flag, then attempt to swing 5* further out to the right than your normal swing?  Wouldn't it be easier to aim at the center of the green, and not alter your swing? To hit a draw, you would "close" the clubface 2*, but not have to adjust your swing.  The results would ideally be the same, but continually trying to alter a swing to vary your shot shape seems much more difficult. Maybe it's just semantics.

Why would I aim at the flag?  The ball would start at the flag (target) and curve away from my target.  Want to always curve the ball into the target, whether it's the flag, center of the green, center of the fairway, whatever.  Hitting out 5* isn't really altering your swing, if the weight is forward, hands are forward you're going to be hitting before the point of tangency, club is traveling down, out and forward.  So I'm not actually "swinging" out to the right.

Quote:

Huh? Where did you get this? Everyone I have ever talked to about this has stated exactly that. A slice results from an open clubface in relation to the swingpath.

This is what I usually see on TV and golf magazines

http://staging.thegolfchannel.com/golf-videos/hank-haney-curing-slice-14713/?ref=26000&rsec;=602&select4;=2

Your lingo can be confusing for those of us whose idea of "target" is where we are aiming, not where we want the ball to end up.  And judging from Tiger90's initial commentary, his idea of "target" is/was the same.

Why would the target be where we're aiming?  That would be the start line

[michaeljames92]

Angle of attack is actually pretty important in ball flight, and is often overlooked when explaining things. For example, this is why you see Tiger making very leftward practice swings, this is because his angle of attack is quite high which sends the path out to the right. Therefore to straighten out his path and hence his curvature, he is trying to swing left. In other words, you can have a swing path going left(for a righty) and if you're angle of attack is downward enough, you can still hit a draw.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Jooma

A golf ball CANNOT see the club path. The only thing a golf ball feels is the golf club face angle in relation to the intended direction. The direction of the golf ball flight is a resultant of the golf club face angle that imparts the SPIN on the ball and the club path that imparts DIRECTION. If the club face is perpendicular to the golf club path there is no side spin and the balls flies in the direction of the golf club path.

The rest is a combination of these two factors.

The club path does not "impart direction." The face does that about 4-5x as much as the path.

Generally speaking: the ball starts where the face is pointed and curves away from the path (if the two aren't perpendicular or parallel, depending on how you think of "face").

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Question:  If your target is always the flag, do you aim at the flag, then attempt to swing 5* further out to the right than your normal swing?  Wouldn't it be easier to aim at the center of the green, and not alter your swing? To hit a draw, you would "close" the clubface 2*, but not have to adjust your swing.  The results would ideally be the same, but continually trying to alter a swing to vary your shot shape seems much more difficult. Maybe it's just semantics.

His stock shot is a draw. Why would he do any of those things? He's not "swinging out to the right" farther than his normal swing.

If Mike has to bend a shot around a tree, or hit a fade, then most of the things he'll do are static changes like you suggest. He's still not going to be "altering his swing."

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Huh? Where did you get this? Everyone I have ever talked to about this has stated exactly that. A slice results from an open clubface in relation to the swingpath.

I think you misread what he wrote. When most instructors say "open clubface" they mean to both the path and target. If they believe the "wrong" ball flight laws then that makes sense: they think the path is at -2 (left two degrees) where the ball starts, but the clubface is at +5 (right 5 degrees where the ball finishes). Really, that shot has a clubface left of the target, and a path even farther left of the target, resulting in a clubface that's closed to the target but open to the path.

Everyone has always agreed that the clubface in relation to the path produces curve. But the majority of instructors (still!) believe that the clubface is pointing right of the target if the ball ends up there, too.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Your lingo can be confusing for those of us whose idea of "target" is where we are aiming, not where we want the ball to end up.  And judging from Tiger90's initial commentary, his idea of "target" is/was the same.

Sure, H, you're

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Your lingo can be confusing for those of us whose idea of "target" is where we are aiming, not where we want the ball to end up.  And judging from Tiger90's initial commentary, his idea of "target" is/was the same.

Harmonious, c'mon. There's no way you've been confused this whole time by "target" being "where we are aiming." The target is the flag, the center of the green or fairway, or whatever you're trying to hit.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Angle of attack is actually pretty important in ball flight, and is often overlooked when explaining things. For example, this is why you see Tiger making very leftward practice swings, this is because his angle of attack is quite high which sends the path out to the right. Therefore to straighten out his path and hence his curvature, he is trying to swing left. In other words, you can have a swing path going left(for a righty) and if you're angle of attack is downward enough, you can still hit a draw.

Tiger's angle of attack is being blamed way too much. His path was +10 in Dubai with a positive angle of attack with his driver. It wasn't his AoA - his baseline was way the hell right.

I've never cared for thinking of the baseline or the HSP as "swing path." I think "path" and "clubface angle" are just that: the 3D path of the club and the angle of the clubface at impact.

[Jooma]

A golf ball will fly in the direction of a club path only if the club face is perpendicular to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The video clearly shows it. In all other cases it will not, and a spin will be introduced to the golf ball. If a force of the hit is bigger than the force of spin then the ball will continue along the flight path and curve at the end of the flight. If the other case is true it will start to curve immediately after the impact.

[Edgk]

I love this video as it gets rid of all the descriptions and just shows you how it works. I learned how the Inside out closed face or square face works by seeing it when I was messing around with a putter and exaggerating it. I thought if I went extreme in to out with a square face that the ball would follow the swing path but it actually squirted out straight( or left of the swing path) which surprised me. Of course a putter doesn't generate the spin of a driver so it didn't hook past the target but it did teach me which of the three lines my ball would start out on. I was always confused by something else related that this has helped me understand better. With a 9I I liked to aim left of the target with my clubface slightly open and an in to out swing and I expected to see a slight fade but I would end up with a shot that started right of my expectation with a baby draw. Now i can see exactly why.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Jooma

A golf ball will fly in the direction of a club path only if the club face is perpendicular to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's true. That's also not what you said before.

Originally Posted by Jooma

If a force of the hit is bigger than the force of spin then the ball will continue along the flight path and curve at the end of the flight. If the other case is true it will start to curve immediately after the impact.

That doesn't make any sense. Golf balls don't "go straight" because they're hit harder. You simply don't see the curve. In fact, part of the reason a driver curves more is because it's "hit harder" than a 9I.

Your language is confusing. Like your first post, to which someone responded that you had parts that were right and parts that were dead wrong, this post is similar.

[EdwinMichnowicz]

Wow, most of the novice/high-handicapped golf world has been concerned about hitting a Slice.  According to this diagram now slices have been eliminated.  (just kidding).  Hoverer, when watching the pros on TV the commentators always talk about a "cut" shot.   Now I am so confused..   What this diagram reinforces with me is the need for those who want to improve their game is to get lessons.   I can follow most of the principals on the golf channel, magazines, etc. however doing them on the course in another.  Any comments appreciated.