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Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?


iacas
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Very true, but most golfers have a home course they could create a yardage book for.  With Google you could create a yardage book without even walking the course in advance.  Smart Phones aren't "required" to play a round of golf, nor is a GPS or rangefinder, but I agree they make it easier when it comes to club selection.

Originally Posted by boogielicious

They didn't have the marked heads, but their caddies knew exactly how many paces it was to trouble and the green.  My father-in-law was a caddie in the 1920's and '30s.  They paced the whole course and knew distances by heart.  It was their job to know.



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Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

I'm a little confused about what rules apply when, then. If I understand correctly, this all deals with rule 14-3, right?

Is rule 14-3 only for tournaments, or is it for daily play?

If I'm playing a round (for handicap, but not in a tournament) while using a smartphone app during the round;

and rule 14-3 says I'm not allowed to use a smartphone app with disqualification being the penalty for breaking the rule,

then why is my score allowed to be posted?

I'm not trying to be contrary or argumentative here; I'm just asking an honest question about when this rule (or any other rule) applies. If I hit my ball into a water hazard, I take my drop and add on my penalty stroke because rule 26 says that's what we do. It wouldn't be right to ignore the penalty stroke and then expect my score to really count toward a handicap, right? So why is 14-3 different?

Technically, the use of a smart phone would preclude you from posting the round. But if that was followed to the letter, a lot of people would never get to post a round.

Q: Are scores made using information generated from a Distance-Measuring Device acceptable for handicap purposes?

A: In certain situations, yes. If the Distance-Measuring Device measures distance only, the score is acceptable for handicap purposes, regardless of whether the Committee has established a Local Rule allowing the use of a distance-measuring device. However, the use of a device that gauges or measures other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., wind or gradient) is not permitted and makes the score unacceptable for handicap purposes, even if these capabilities are disabled or not used. (REVISED)

Generally speaking, the rules in handicap rounds are kind of different. If someone knocks your ball away when you have a one-foot putt left, you're not disqualified nor do you have to replace your ball and putt out. You simply mark the score you'd have "likely" made on the hole and move on.

More here and in the decisions: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/ .

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Originally Posted by iacas

...

Those are all "when nobody's looking." Again, they are more visible than literally looking over someone's shoulder to see what app they're using on their phone. I can see you testing the condition of the sand from 50 yards away. I can't necessarily tell what app you're using on your phone from five feet away.

...

You may be right that the logic of many rules has to do with "I can see..." or not see you cheating rather than honor. I have never imagined the rules to be about protecting against unseen violations more than those likely to be seen. I guess I learned to play when I was deeper in the woods than most people ever care to see. When I incurred a penalty, it was I alone that saw it. You guys who play in the fairway may have a different perspective. :) I think of too many rules having to do with intent and things like "did you cause it to move?"

My guess is that I'm closer to right -- that is that most rules expect honor to prevail over policing -- and that the inconsistencies that I see are caused by the USGA and R&A; rules committee being a bunch of really old guys who have never held a smart phone. I guess that they image them to have powers they simply do not have. That is, they do not really understand that one must actively cheat in order to use one of the new devises for cheating -- they are not passive cheater devices.

Honor is one of the things that makes golf such a great game. Imagine a football game where the linemen called holding on themselves. Only in golf will a player say he thinks he broke a rule, that no one else may have seen, that will cost him the tournement.

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I see Erik's point about how it's easier for others to see infractions of other rules that are mostly self-enforced on the honor system than it would be for them to see you switch quickly to the weather app before switching back to the golf GPS app.  But I still agree with Rustyredcab and Ignorant.  Especially for handicap rounds, this rule seems totally ridiculous.  I could see a better argument for major amateur tourneys, but even for local club tourneys it seems a dumb rule to me.

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I agree honor is key to the rules, but sometimes people; don't know the rules, forget the rules, or don't realize they broke the rules. In the last few years I recall a few instances where the home viewing audience witnessed rules violations and called it in. Upon review, the golfer, playing partner and rules official missed it, but the violation was upheld. Imagine how many rules violations are missed during non-televised or heavily attended tournaments.


I own a Leupold GX-4 which has a special face plate that disables the slope and club selector feature. The device is not approved for tournament play regardless of which face plate is attached because of the capabilities of the device.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

My guess is that I'm closer to right -- that is that most rules expect honor to prevail over policing -- and that the inconsistencies that I see are caused by the USGA and R&A; rules committee being a bunch of really old guys who have never held a smart phone. I guess that they image them to have powers they simply do not have. That is, they do not really understand that one must actively cheat in order to use one of the new devises for cheating -- they are not passive cheater devices.

Honor is one of the things that makes golf such a great game. Imagine a football game where the linemen called holding on themselves. Only in golf will a player say he thinks he broke a rule, that no one else may have seen, that will cost him the tournement.



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Originally Posted by rustyredcab

I think of too many rules having to do with intent and things like "did you cause it to move?"

I think if you study the rules you'll quickly learn that very few rules have anything to do with "intent." There's the definition of a "stroke" and... that's almost it. If you "intend" to rough up the surface of the green to test the conditions, you can be penalized too. The rest of the "intent" things are really specific, small things, and there aren't that many of them. Either your ball moves or it didn't. Either you did something or you didn't. "Intent" doesn't matter much.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

My guess is that I'm closer to right -- that is that most rules expect honor to prevail over policing -- and that the inconsistencies that I see are caused by the USGA and R&A; rules committee being a bunch of really old guys who have never held a smart phone.

I think that's kind of insulting to the USGA and R&A; rules committees. I personally know of several rules officials and guys on the USGA committee, and several are under the age of 40 and are quite adept at using technology.

Golf is a game of honor but at the same time it's also a game played in plain view. Fellow competitors are allowed to follow you into the woods to observe your actions. The same can't be said of pushing a button on a laser with slope calculation built in. Again, this isn't to do with smart phones - the same exact rule exists for dedicated GPS/laser devices.

Originally Posted by mdl

I could see a better argument for major amateur tourneys, but even for local club tourneys it seems a dumb rule to me.


Surely you realize that the "dumbness of a rule as mdl sees it" probably isn't high on the list of consideration for rules makers, right? :)

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With middle HDCP amateurs, I would worry more about weather apps contributing to slow play than giving the iPhone bearer an unfair advantage. Middle H golfers already experience too much "paralysis by analysis."

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When you think about it, all rangefinders and GPS's do is speed up the game.  If you really wanted to, taken to a logical conclusion, you could easily measure the yardage to the hole given the tools in your bag (your sand wedge is probably a yard long - line it up over and over until you get to the hole).  However, that would be absurd and the game would take forever.  All the GPS and rangefinders are doing is speeding up something that is totally legal under the rules - i.e. walking off yardage.  I think thats the difference.  You can't measure the weather, no matter how long it takes, with the clubs in your bag or your feet.

I think if something just speeds up something you can anyway (i.e. walking off yardage / measuring with your SW), it should be legal.  If it allows you to do something you can't do with just your body and clubs (even if it takes a really long time), it should be banned.  Same thing with writing your wedge yardages on your wedge in the 3x4 system - you can do it anyway (just memorize it) so it is (and should be) allowed - it doesn't allow you an advantage, it just takes less time.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Technically, the use of a smart phone would preclude you from posting the round. But if that was followed to the letter, a lot of people would never get to post a round.

A: In certain situations, yes. If the Distance-Measuring Device measures distance only, the score is acceptable for handicap purposes, regardless of wheth

Q: Are scores made using information generated from a Distance-Measuring Device acceptable for handicap purposes?

er the Committee has established a Local Rule allowing the use of a distance-measuring device. However, the use of a device that gauges or measures other conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., wind or gradient) is not permitted and makes the score unacceptable for handicap purposes, even if these capabilities are disabled or not used. (REVISED)

Generally speaking, the rules in handicap rounds are kind of different. If someone knocks your ball away when you have a one-foot putt left, you're not disqualified nor do you have to replace your ball and putt out. You simply mark the score you'd have "likely" made on the hole and move on.

More here and in the decisions: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-05/ .



Good link. Thank you for that.

But then it seems that we've got some rules that are just winked at and ignored (the conceded one-foot putt in stroke play), regardless of what the official decisions are, for those of us who don't keep handicaps and (apparently) even for those who do. It gets me one step deeper into "a game resembling golf." And one step further away from even considering ever posting scores for a handicap.

If the issue for the cell phones is that an app is even on the phone, but not used, then would ANY use of the phone (e.g., for answering or making a call) be a violation? If so, then I should get a simpler phone just for golf if I want to follow the rules (and have a phone with me on the course, which is expected of me). If not, then there's an apparent contradiction (you aren't allowed to use the phone for distance measuring because the phone has an unused weather app, but you are allowed to text or phone someone with the phone even though it has an unused weather app).

I bet the USGA discussions over the rule clarification would have been very interesting to hear.

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Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

But then it seems that we've got some rules that are just winked at and ignored (the conceded one-foot putt in stroke play), regardless of what the official decisions are, for those of us who don't keep handicaps and (apparently) even for those who do. It gets me one step deeper into "a game resembling golf." And one step further away from even considering ever posting scores for a handicap.

I don't know. The Rules for handicapping specifically state the bit I told you about the score you'd have likely made. Or about playing 13 holes. So while I get your point, and kind of agree, I don't know. I guess I'm just not all that interested in talking about it. :)

Let me put it this way: I doubt there's a handicap committee in the country that would invalidate your handicap because they found out you'd taken some phone calls on the course. It's a "look the other way" kind of thing, yes.

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Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

So if Bubba was tweeting during a round (not a competition round, as I understand) using a phone that has any compass app built-in and gets a 58 for the round, is his score invalid for posting as a course record?

Originally Posted by iacas

It's not invalid as a handicap round, so I don't see why it would be invalid as a course record.

How come a round could be accepted as a handicap round if the player is in breach of a Rule based on which he would be disqualified from a competition? Sounds very peculiar to me.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Let me put it this way: I doubt there's a handicap committee in the country that would invalidate your handicap because they found out you'd taken some phone calls on the course. It's a "look the other way" kind of thing, yes.


Maybe you should invalidate your round yourself. That's what I would do as it was not played by the Rules.

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How come a round could be accepted as a handicap round if the player is in breach of a Rule based on which he would be disqualified from a competition? Sounds very peculiar to me.

The same reason I turned in my round on Monday afternoon despite taking no penalty for stumbling over the lip of the bunker and catching my balance with my wedge.  I grounded my club.  I took no penalty.  It was that or do a face-plant.  It helped me zero with the next shot.  There is a spirit to golf IMO.  Playing within that spirit is what is important.  Nobody would invalidate a handicap round because people took phone calls.

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Originally Posted by Ignorant

Maybe you should invalidate your round yourself. That's what I would do as it was not played by the Rules.

Yeah, cuz that's gonna happen.

Meanwhile, back in reality...

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

The same reason I turned in my round on Monday afternoon despite taking no penalty for stumbling over the lip of the bunker and catching my balance with my wedge.  I grounded my club. I took no penalty. It was that or do a face-plant.  It helped me zero with the next shot.  There is a spirit to golf IMO.  Playing within that spirit is what is important. Nobody would invalidate a handicap round because people took phone calls.


You can use a club to prevent yourself from falling. You didn't violate the Rules.

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Originally Posted by Ignorant

Maybe you should invalidate your round yourself. That's what I would do as it was not played by the Rules.


It's not clear that using a smart phone as a phone would break any rules. The rule pertains to the use of distance-measuring devices. As long as you don't use the GPS application, you're probably in the clear. There is some ambiguity here, but I think it's very unlikely that they'd rule that a phone call is a rules violation, and I think you could usually tell by looking whether someone is making a phone call or reading out distances.

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Originally Posted by zeg

It's not clear that using a smart phone as a phone would break any rules. The rule pertains to the use of distance-measuring devices. As long as you don't use the GPS application, you're probably in the clear. There is some ambiguity here, but I think it's very unlikely that they'd rule that a phone call is a rules violation, and I think you could usually tell by looking whether someone is making a phone call or reading out distances.


You are right, it is not entirely black & white and that is precisely why the ruling bodies should make it very clear how it should be instead of drafting ambiguous papers that only confuse people. For this particular reason there are many amateur and even some pro Tours in Europe where use of a phone is strictly forbidden for any other purpose that calling for a referee or using it in case of emergency. This kind of condition of competition is very clear and straightforward and leaves no room for interpretations.

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I just wanted to add what really annoys me about this rule is the fact that as one of the "99%" who doesn't make a ton of $$$,  this ruling is another example of why my favorite game is annoying.

So now I have to go buy a $200-$400 fancy GPS gadget or rangefinder instead of using the $29 golf logix one attached to my phone. In addition to speeding up play it makes it's more fair to those of us that don't make a ton of $$$ playing against someone who spent the dough on a fancy GPS system.  Did the the USGA or R&A; ever consider that it might not be fair for a person the other side?? What about those of us that now have the ability to level the playing field and have access to the same information as those who can afford it. this is all without mentioning the fact that they DO speed up play which is a huge issue in this game. Screw them I am using mine. and for the record, for cryin out loud, I am not a meteorologist trying to measure barometric pressure. I am trying to choose between an 8 or a 9 iron!

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Originally Posted by Ignorant

You are right, it is not entirely black & white and that is precisely why the ruling bodies should make it very clear how it should be instead of drafting ambiguous papers that only confuse people. For this particular reason there are many amateur and even some pro Tours in Europe where use of a phone is strictly forbidden for any other purpose that calling for a referee or using it in case of emergency. This kind of condition of competition is very clear and straightforward and leaves no room for interpretations.


For competitions, I think a no phone rule is just fine.

Personally, outside of competition, I wouldn't sweat the smart phone rules a bit---if I wanted to use it as a GPS, I would trust myself not to use it for anything else. I think it'd be ridiculous not to report such a round for handicap unless there's an unambiguous statement from the handicap committee that they don't want you reporting such scores. Not posting a score because of a technical violation that does not affect the score is not reasonable.

But, in competition, I can understand the rules being what they are. The line has to be drawn somewhere. Someone will complain about something either way. For a tournament, I'd keep it as conservative as is practical to avoid questions.

As for the 99%er issue, that's a bunch of hogwash. The rules aren't in place to sell GPSes, there are perfectly non-conspiratorial reasons for them. A perfectly serviceable GPS can be had for less than the cost of a typical wedge if you really need one (and the difference between that and the cost of the app is even less). But face it, there are advantages to be had from more expensive equipment. There's just no way around that. The USGA and R&A; aren't making it that way.

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