Introducing Five Simple Keys®

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by iacas

I happened to be teaching a lefty. The feeling still applies to the left hand of right-handed golfers.

Yes, bow/arch is the opposite. The specific move is to bow or arch the left wrist more coming into impact. Again, I used to say "like you're revving a motorcycle with your left hand" until a student pointed out that you CUP your wrist to rev a motorcycle. So then it became whatever the opposite of revving is.

Cool? Okay. Moving on…

That's what I thought, crystal clear now, thanks. And thanks for the edit, smiley faces are much nicer Moving on...

Back on topic, will definitely be looking to buy the DVDs, I waited far too long to buy the SnT book.

Kudos

[Jwat381]

Sounds great, I'm going to keep these 5 keys in mind, and hopefully meet up with an instructor sometime soon.

[johnclayton1982]

I really like the idea.  The idea of a simple system has definite commercial appeal.

I question the business decision as far as thinking through the idea of handing out the keys.  Once you do that, you lose all control.  Those will be sold on ebay to people who are terrible.  People will get a key, put it on their bag, not practice for six months, go out, be terrible, and hurt the credibility of the system.  I just think that is going to lead to bad things - you are putting out advertising that you can't control.  Much better would be a certificate or some such that still gives the player a feeling of accomplishment, but doesn't advertise that this is your system on players you can't control.

The marketing push is: 1. its simple and 2. anyone can do it and improve.  If you hand out these keys and people see people playing badly with them, it will undermine the underpinnings of the system - that is, if you do it, you will be relatively decent.  I think its always a horrible idea to put your company's reputation (in this case, your system) out there like that where you cannot control it.

That decision aside, it seems exciting.  Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but I think the actual handing out of keys is not a good idea from a business perspective.  Just read the 100+ threads on here where people have *said* "I go to instructor X, and i see other students of his struggle.  Do you think I should stick with him?"  Thats exactly what is going to happen with these keys.

Not to be a wet blanket, because I think the idea is pretty brilliant from a money and GI perspective.  However, I think handing out the keys is not a good idea and could get you a bad rep that is totally out of your control.  Your inviting a trap akin to karate belts.  When kung fu first started here (I am familiar with kung fu and not other types of martial arts), getting a black belt took approximately 11 years.  Now, it takes about 1 3/4.  Why?  Because instructors want students, and they want to make money.  Students want to continue to take lessons if they see progress.  Over time, the temptation is for instructors to relax the line just a bit to keep people interested.  Over years, it becomes easier and easier to get the recognition to the point where it almost becomes a punchline.

I just worry about that.  The handing out of keys seems to have a ton of downside ("I don't know about that 5SK thing, I saw a guy with two keys shoot a 110... how good could it be?") and virtually no upside (whats the point?).

Just my $0.02.  Congrats on the new endeavor.  Good luck.

[TheGeekGolfer]

I really like the idea.  The idea of a simple system has definite commercial appeal.

I question the business decision as far as thinking through the idea of handing out the keys.  Once you do that, you lose all control.  Those will be sold on ebay to people who are terrible.

Really, ebay...doubt it. No one is going to BUY a plastic key indicating your progress in a golf instruction program. Personaly, I don't like the keys, anyway. Seems it would work with kids, but not with any adults. The idea of the program is good and I wish Eric and the others success with it, I just might rethink the plastic keys. Go with cool ball markers or a belt buckle for breaking 100, 90, 80, 75,and ulimately par. If you want something visible, use a nice hat clip that looks like a key with the ball markers as symbols of each level. I'd be more likely to wear that than some (imo) cheap plastic keys.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by TheGeekGolfer

Really, ebay...doubt it. No one is going to BUY a plastic key indicating your progress in a golf instruction program.

I agree. I'm also not a fan of the plastic keys, but then stranger things have floated people's boats.

[johnclayton1982]

OK, take away the ebay comment and the point still stands.  The whole point of 5SK is the simplicity.  People who see it on Golf Channel will say "hey, lets try that.  it makes sense".  They will be much less likely to try it if two days ago some guy with two keys on his bag shot 120.  Yo can't control what these people do after they earn their keys, and that is not good business.  If you have people out there with these keys hacking it around, after a while, 5SK will have nothing to differentiate itself from any of the other super complicated swing instruction theories *in the minds of its potential clients*.  It will be just another theory that may or may not help them, as evidenced by the guy with three keys shooting 100 the week before.  Thats my point.  On the other hand, there is virtually no upside to giving them something they can carry on the course as oppossed to anything else - like a certificate, for example.  There is no upside and a pretty big downside.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Those will be sold on ebay to people who are terrible.

I can honestly say that I don't think that would make the top 1000 list of concerns. I disagree that we're going to see a black market for the Keys.

Originally Posted by TheGeekGolfer

Personaly, I don't like the keys, anyway. Seems it would work with kids, but not with any adults.

Like the stickers football players earn for their helmets in college football? Or the balls people keep from their first par, or birdie? Or the fact that my wife points out that high schoolers will do almost anything for a goofy sticker? People buy stickers and bumper stickers for their cars when they complete 5Ks, 10Ks, etc. They carry around lucky pennies. Life is filled with examples of trivial little things being given out as little rewards. The keys might cost a nine cents to make, but the value to the student is whatever they place on it. The Keys will signify their hard work, their effort, their understanding.

Virtually everyone we've talked to has loved the concept and the actual physical Keys themselves. Many at the PGA Show asked if they could have them. Instructors we've talked to love the idea. They'll clip to your bag, so they have to be lightweight and silent (we considered aluminum or steel, but they'd make noise), and they'll serve as good reminders to students who aren't having the best day to consider what they've worked on.

And finally, the Keys aren't earned by shooting scores. They're earned by someone understanding and explaining how to do a Key and why the Key is important, and then demonstrating that they can do the Key properly (i.e. you can't earn the weight forward key by moving your head a foot forward on the downswing).

Again, I really doubt that someone's going to want to sell a Key they've earned, and I'm even more doubtful that someone will want to buy a Key they didn't earn.

[johnclayton1982]

I agree, I shouldn't have used ebay, it was a bad example.  My point is that once the keys are given away you can't control who uses them, how they are used, or the message you are sending to the public.

Quote:

Like the stickers football players earn for their helmets in college football? Or the balls people keep from their first par, or birdie? Or the fact that my wife points out that high schoolers will do almost anything for a goofy sticker? People buy stickers and bumper stickers for their cars when they complete 5Ks, 10Ks, etc. They carry around lucky pennies. Life is filled with examples of trivial little things being given out as little rewards. The keys might cost a nine cents to make, but the value to the student is whatever they place on it. The Keys will signify their hard work, their effort, their understanding.

The point isn't that you shouldn't give people things to mark their achievements.  Of course you should.  You should give them things that are not visible to your other potential customers.  You should give them something that is nice and meaningful, but isn't meant to be displayed on a golf bag.  You have no control over someone earning a key, not playing for six months, hanging a key on their bag, and then shooting 110.  Everyone who sees him hacking around the course will get a poor impression of 5Sk.

Quote:

They'll clip to your bag, so they have to be lightweight and silent (we considered aluminum or steel, but they'd make noise), and they'll serve as good reminders to students who aren't having the best day to consider what they've worked on.

Right, but don't you see that when you advertise on the golf channel, and put millions into advertising, you do that so that you, and only you, control the image of your product.  It conflicts with your basic message.  The message of 5SK is too have a simple, direct route to better golf.  All that gets undermined when some guy puts the key on his bag and shoots 105.  Everyone who sees him will think that 5SK is just like all the other swing methods.  Giving someone a key like that certifies them as your end product - you are saying "Here, World, is an example of someone who has passed a stage of 5SK."  Then, when they duff it all over the course, people conclude 5Sk is ineffective (whether it is or not is irrelevant).

Quote:

Virtually everyone we've talked to has loved the concept and the actual physical Keys themselves. Many at the PGA Show asked if they could have them. Instructors we've talked to love the idea.

I'm not saying it isn't cool, or the keys arn't nice.  I'm saying that giving away keys will not get you any more customers than giving away a certificate would, and it will almost certainly lose you customers (a certain percentage of people who see someone with a key stinking it up).

EDIT: Heck, give them a big key they can hang on their wall.  Or a magnet key for a club locker.  But putting something out that, when worn, certifies someone to the public as a proponent of your system when you have no control over how that person acts or how well that person plays is not a very good idea.

[sean_miller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I agree, I shouldn't have used ebay, it was a bad example.  My point is that once the keys are given away you can't control who uses them, how they are used, or the message you are sending to the public.

The point isn't that you shouldn't give people things to mark their achievements.  Of course you should.  You should give them things that are not visible to your other potential customers.  You should give them something that is nice and meaningful, but isn't meant to be displayed on a golf bag.  You have no control over someone earning a key, not playing for six months, hanging a key on their bag, and then shooting 110.  Everyone who sees him hacking around the course will get a poor impression of 5Sk.

Quote:

They'll clip to your bag, so they have to be lightweight and silent (we considered aluminum or steel, but they'd make noise), and they'll serve as good reminders to students who aren't having the best day to consider what they've worked on.

Right, but don't you see that when you advertise on the golf channel, and put millions into advertising, you do that so that you, and only you, control the image of your product.  It conflicts with your basic message.  The message of 5SK is too have a simple, direct route to better golf.  All that gets undermined when some guy puts the key on his bag and shoots 105.  Everyone who sees him will think that 5SK is just like all the other swing methods.  Giving someone a key like that certifies them as your end product - you are saying "Here, World, is an example of someone who has passed a stage of 5SK."  Then, when they duff it all over the course, people conclude 5Sk is ineffective (whether it is or not is irrelevant).

Quote:

Virtually everyone we've talked to has loved the concept and the actual physical Keys themselves. Many at the PGA Show asked if they could have them. Instructors we've talked to love the idea.

I'm not saying it isn't cool, or the keys arn't nice.  I'm saying that giving away keys will not get you any more customers than giving away a certificate would, and it will almost certainly lose you customers (a certain percentage of people who see someone with a key stinking it up).

EDIT: Heck, give them a big key they can hang on their wall.  Or a magnet key for a club locker.  But putting something out that, when worn, certifies someone to the public as a proponent of your system when you have no control over how that person acts or how well that person plays is not a very good idea.

It sounds like someone could be shooting 105-110 while earning the keys, so what's the problem. Should someone who doesn't have the athletic ability to shoot sub-100 scores (and there are people like that in spite of what the uber politically correct try to tell us) be unable to earn keys for understanding the lessons and demonstrating them in principle? I suspect this will be like karate schools. Eventually, with enough lessons, everyone will get their black belt. I honestly doubt someone would get all 5 tokens and be a 110 shooter, but if you find one, take him for all he's got!!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I agree, I shouldn't have used ebay, it was a bad example.  My point is that once the keys are given away you can't control who uses them, how they are used, or the message you are sending to the public.

I understood your point, John. We simply disagree, and if we see even a shred of the reaction we've gotten thus far, I think our "business plan" will be okay in the end. We're happy at this point with our plans for who can earn Keys, how they'll earn them, and with them going out and enjoying the game of golf, and being proud of their accomplishments. Thank you.

P.S. It's gonna be tough to shoot 110 if you've earned two Keys. Just sayin'. That's kind of the point…

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

You have no control over someone earning a key, not playing for six months, hanging a key on their bag, and then shooting 110.  Everyone who sees him hacking around the course will get a poor impression of 5Sk.

I agree that you have no control of what the player will do outside of his or her lessons and they may have an off day.  With that said, I teach a fairly high volume of lessons and I don't know of anyone who has a steady head and at least 80% of their weight forward at impact that doesn't AT LEAST break 100.

[johnclayton1982]

Fair enough.  Its very hard to maintain standards in the face of your instructors being self-motivated to give them out (so their students feel like they are making progress and keep using the keys).

Quote:

With that said, I teach a fairly high volume of lessons and I don't know of anyone who has a steady head and at least 80% of their weight forward at impact that doesn't AT LEAST break 100.

True.  However, you can't control it - thats the problem.

Anyway, it is an interesting concept.  Do all of these concepts apply on all shots (Driver, Short Game, etc...) or are we really just talking irons?

[mvmac]

The awarding of keys is definitely an idea I've grown to like.  Just about having fun, and knowing you can perform a motion that is a commonality of many great players.  And students will earn a key after having demonstrated that particular key on multiple occasions.  Not just on a good day

[newtogolf]

For every guy out there who is shooting 105 with one of more of the 5SK's there will be many more that are shooting in the low 90's and 80's.  Every program has individuals that don't excel and aren't a good representatives but if the program is solid they will be in the minority.  As for selling keys on eBay, I highly doubt it's a concern.  I'd relate it to buying a black belt off of ebay, if you haven't earned the belt it's really not worth much, the value is in the personal dedication and effort invested to earn it not the item itself.

[boogielicious]

I like the key idea.  It is an effective teaching aid.  They are milestones that students reach and the key is the same as a certificate.  Most professional training programs give out certificates or paperweights or something for the student to have as a reminder that they passed the training (like a 6 sigma Black Belt).  This is the same idea.  It will also help sell the program to new students.

I think it will really help when we are on the course struggling too.  We can analyze our issue and think of the key to fix it.

[Daddypawsgrands]

Looks good. Will keep my eye on this.

[Gifted Golfer]

Sounds great!

[MbolicGolf]

Erik and Mike,

I think that the work you ahve done to identify these five keys is nothign short of awesome. I have been incorporating these principles into my swing but have not found the consistency I would like yet. I also notice that these keys are upper body only. In my practice I have found that there are some postural issues I have that make a large difference in my ball striking with a small change. has any thought been given to lower body position?

Thanks,

Carl