Jump to content
IGNORED

Introducing Five Simple Keys®


Recommended Posts



Originally Posted by Danattherock

Same here. If it is blending the two things I think it is, I am all in.

-Dan



Hi Dan,

You are definitely on the right track...bottom line is that the system is based upon just the things that matter.  If someone can execute each of the keys proficiently they WILL be a great ball striker.  No matter if they do it like Ray Floyd, Jim Furyk, Josh Broadaway, Charlie Wi, or Robert Rock.  An instructors job will be to help them become as efficient as possible to make executing the keys as easy as possible.

Dave

P.S.  I did try and post in the 5 Keys thread over on golfwrx and a moderator said the post was not allowed even though it was a reply to thread started by someone else.  I will add my post to this thread in a minute so everyone can see how "promotional" it was :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Replies 223
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

For the past few months my avatar has been an image of five keys ( this one , in fact). It's been a "hint" at something with which I've been involved since midway in 2011, via Dave Wedzik and Golf E

Of course there is, it's called the Golf Channel, Golf Digest, Golf Magazine

This is a fantastic idea, Eric. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product. As one of tens of thousands of left handed golfers out there, I wish you had opted to title one of your keys;  "

Posted Images

FYI - a 5 Keys thread started over at golfwrx and a few of the comments were, at best, irresponsible.  I put together a quick synopsis of what the system was and how it came to be and posted it.  Below is the post that was "moderated" OUT (I did take out the part that spoke directly to the bashing in that thread as it is not pertinent here). Since my reply wasn't "allowed" there I figured I'd post it here.  That way if anyone really wants to know what 5 Simple Keys® is about they can read it here.

Anyway...here it is...The Post That Never Was (still can't figure out why it wasn't allowed :-))
A little background on 5 Simple Keys®. As many of you know I have been "inside" the SnT circles since well before it had a name.  I know the timeline of how things came to be, etc, etc and I have seen all of the criticism, firsthand, way too many times.  My belief is that the SnT name makes the pattern harder to accept for most...and that is unfortunate.  That said, no "pattern", in it's entirety, is for every person who plays golf. That is why teaching golf based on verifiable, achievable "commonalities" makes sense to me.  As Mike (mvmac) has said, Golf Evolution has diverged from SnT more than once and we have reasoning to back it up.  It is exactly this type of thinking that helps us evolve the way teach on an ongoing basis.

Over time we all learn from others and hopefully build our own framework based on what be believe to be correct. 5 Simple Keys® is the result of so many things I have researched, learned and observed. It is a learning system for golf based solely on verifiable, achievable commonalities displayed by the game's greatest players. Our instructors are trained to not only explain the 5 keys in-depth to students but help them to prioritize and execute the key which helps their game the most/fastest.  Frankly if golfers can execute these 5 Simple Keys® they will play well...whether they do it via the SnT pattern or Mac's CP or a Jim Furyk carbon copy is up to them.

That's all. Let me know if you have any questions...I will pay attention and try to answer as many of them as I can.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

This is an exciting and bold step forward for everyone involved.  I am particularly impressed that your approach involves not only the five keys of good golf swings, but the great concepts of content and context with a business model that includes the keys to a real success.  All to often people have an idea, but they fail to execute because they do not think through the related activities that will make the activity legitimate.  I am happy to see the certification thoughts, the online program, the products, and not just words about five keys.  Too many golf related things are not well thought out and designed to be successful.  You guys are giving this a lot more thought and that should pay off over time.

Link to post
Share on other sites



Originally Posted by david_wedzik

Hi Dan,

You are definitely on the right track...bottom line is that the system is based upon just the things that matter.

Man, I am sure glad to hear it. I have been playing golf for 20 years off and on, but just in the last few years have I dedicated the time and energy needed to improve my game in a significant way. I am no longer satisfied being a bogey golfer. This pursuit led me to a few thousand dollars worth of books, dvds, lessons, and training aids. Hookers and blow would have been cheaper I suspect. As I got somewhat informed on the different swing philosophies, things turned south for me quickly. I logged off my computer in disgust more times than I can recall in the last two years. Golf swing discussion online is the equivalent of a cafeteria full of kids having a food fight.

Can't spend time on the LynXXX forum cause I don't speak TGM. The friggin lingo is like something out of Star Trek. I even bought the yellow book. Just too difficult for me to fully digest and I don't consider myself slow. Bobby Clampett's book, "The Impact Zone" was about as helpful as anything I read. A cliff notes of sorts for TGM.

I am on a certain forum a year or two ago and everyone is S&T;, which I know even less about. And yes, the specific reputation of the S&T; pattern was not of interest to me as it seemed to box me in a very distinct circle for which I didn't want to commit to. My hesitation is supported when I return to that forum and find the S&T; sea parting.

I had one day lessons with David Orr in NC and Jeff Evans in GA. Both exceptionally talented instructors, but cost and logistics prevent me from getting in deep enough to go full speed ahead. TGM was working for me, but after the lessons, the complexities of advancing made it hard to stick with. Instead, I stood on the tee box with 6 different thoughts in my head, none of which I had a full and complete grasp of. Over time I slipped back into my old bogey golfer swing. Much like a turtle pulling his head back in his shell.

Then I am on the ManXXX forum after seeing the "Confessions of a flipper" download and I get blasted for mentioning TGM. Not as a cheerleader for TGM, just talking the only swing talk I knew (sort of). Hell, I was thinking about flying out to see the guy for private lessons until I got the sharp teeth. So much for golf being fun. This is war! Or so others around me seem to think.

Then we flash forward two years and I see this thread on GwrXXX, a somewhat open bashing party for the 5 Keys. I am not narrow minded or loyal to some swing guru to the point that I can no longer think (or speak) for myself. I gave a little thought to my words before replying to that thread. My initial instinct was a good one and I openly support any "evolving" of golf instruction. Seems we are all stocked up on cavemen at the moment.

If my inclination is correct, you guys are taking the sound aspects of various swing methodologies and presenting them to normal people like me in a way that can be digested. The end result even a golf swing neophyte like myself can understand. Better golf for the masses. If you guys associated with 5 keys seek to incorporate the most proven components over the years, irregardless of origin, you have just restored my faith in golf instruction. A very vacillating faith I might add and I doubt I am alone.

-Dan

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

RE: Key Element #1

Eric,

When you refer to head movement, is it specifically front to back or would it also be up and down?  I've noticed a lot of Pros will dip their head down during the transition and downswing then it comes back to the start level at impact.  My head movement is similar although I am trying to limit this as well.

Thanks,

Scott

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by boogielicious

RE: Key Element #1

Eric,

When you refer to head movement, is it specifically front to back or would it also be up and down?  I've noticed a lot of Pros will dip their head down during the transition and downswing then it comes back to the start level at impact.  My head movement is similar although I am trying to limit this as well.

Thanks,

Scott


Hi Scott - we would be more concerned with the side to side head movement as an "issue" because it creates an efficiency problem.  This does not mean the head can't move at all which is why we chose the term "steady".  The downward motion you talk about (seen in many great players) is a bit of a "compress down to explode up" kind of thing.  I wouldn't necessarily teach it as a need but would likely not worry about it either.  Of course every case is unique but this would be the overall view.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

When you refer to head movement, is it specifically front to back or would it also be up and down?  I've noticed a lot of Pros will dip their head down during the transition and downswing then it comes back to the start level at impact.  My head movement is similar although I am trying to limit this as well.

It is primarily sideways. A big vertical movement can cause issues too, but sideways is much more common amongst amateurs. Vertical movement is often linked to jumping, which also is a part of the pattern. When Erik talks about how the pros move the head in this context, it's sideways. Tiger has moved his head up and down his entire career. A big vertical movement is something you would have to address in individual cases. As a key point though, sideways is what you want to look for, which is why they have made it one of the keys. You can read more on this subject on the links below. http://thesandtrap.com/t/41932/ground-reactive-forces-and-jumping-for-power http://thesandtrap.com/t/44652/why-do-the-pros-dip-their-heads-down-during-the-backswing-and-how-do-they-not-hit-the-ball-fat

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by MacBooky

Interesting ... would you say you go more in to the 'what' where perhaps Stack & Tilt ® goes more into the 'how' ?



Hey MJ - I would actually say both what and how (still big focus on how and the prioritization) and this 5 Keys project doesn't mean we have changed the way we "teach" it overnight.  In fact just the opposite. It means that we can teach it the way we believe to be best and a different instructor can teach it the way they see fit.  Any training (of instructors or golfers) will focus on things we know to be correct and on efficiency. Thus making the (very difficult) process of striking a golf ball much easier.

Dave

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator

If anyone's on Facebook, check out the 5 Simple Keys Group

A learning system for golfers based ONLY on things the game's greatest players have in common. The keys are not only verifiable, but achievable by golfers of all levels.

KEY 1: STEADY HEAD
KEY 2: WEIGHT FORWARD
KEY 3: FLAT LEFT WRIST
KEY 4: DIAGONAL SWEETSPOT PATH
KEY 5: CLUBFACE CONTROL

Instructors teaching the 5 Keys system will be able to prioritize for students - and aid them in becoming more efficient by explaining the fundamental movements and details behind each one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator

Originally Posted by Danattherock

If my inclination is correct, you guys are taking the sound aspects of various swing methodologies and presenting them to normal people like me in a way that can be digested. The end result even a golf swing neophyte like myself can understand. Better golf for the masses. If you guys associated with 5 keys seek to incorporate the most proven components over the years, irregardless of origin, you have just restored my faith in golf instruction. A very vacillating faith I might add and I doubt I am alone.

That's basically it.

5SK means a lot of things, but one of the nice things is that it really boils down to the commonalities of the best golfers. They all do all four or five of those things EVERY time they play.

And though we at Golf Evolution have always prioritized things in our instruction, and frankly I think we do a better job of that than virtually anyone else in the world, sometimes the reasons can get a bit longer than 2-3 words. Five Simple Keys® allows us to really put a fine point on the priorities the student has and lets us be as detailed - or as broad - as possible. A student working on "weight forward" will know what he's working on specifically and why it's important, and of course HOW to do it as well. That will increase the opportunity for the golfer to "buy in" to their own improvement process.

Originally Posted by MacBooky

Interesting ... would you say you go more in to the 'what' where perhaps Stack & Tilt ® goes more into the 'how' ?


Dave answered this question already, but I wanted to add that we realize great golf instruction is a blend of answering all of the questions.

Who? The best players share these five commonalities.

What? The specifics of each of them, their definitions.

When? Well, I suppose this question isn't the most applicable, though sequencing is important in order to achieve the 5SK, and the 5SK all occur at different points throughout the swing (we don't care if your head is no longer steady at A9, and if your left wrist is flat at A6 instead of A7 then that's a problem, too).

Where? On the golf course, presumably. :) Just kidding. In terms of the golf swing I guess "where" and "when" are similar in that they either don't apply or they apply to everything.

Why? Important to understand so that students (and instructors, too!) know what each key helps to control, where they break down, etc.

How? One of the more important pieces, no doubt. Too much to get into here quickly, but obviously "how" to achieve things will vary slightly from instructor to instructor, based on their knowledge and history.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by david_wedzik

Hey MJ - I would actually say both what and how (still big focus on how and the prioritization) and this 5 Keys project doesn't mean we have changed the way we "teach" it overnight.  In fact just the opposite. It means that we can teach it the way we believe to be best and a different instructor can teach it the way they see fit.  Any training (of instructors or golfers) will focus on things we know to be correct and on efficiency. Thus making the (very difficult) process of striking a golf ball much easier.

Dave



tsss, method teachers :) Thanks for the answer Dave, very much like how you guys keep working on and thinking about stuff. And thank you for it has potentially created a blueprint for cooperation in our Academy, because the less organized one's I presume don't see a problem in getting more organized without being labelled ... better for everyone and it's nice and catchy!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the first key, possibly all the keys though, deserve their own thread. I would like to discuss the head movement in much more detail so that we can understand what is meant by steady head. Some of the comments regarding vertical movement are very good. Also is the head the same as the upper COG or are the separate? I can find multiple good ball strikers who allow the head to move forward in the swing in order to control the ball flight is that considered bad? Or is steady head just considered not letting it move backwards on the backswing?

Maybe I will have to wait for the DVD which is fine, but just saying steady head is not enough detail for me.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by mchepp

I think the first key, possibly all the keys though, deserve their own thread. I would like to discuss the head movement in much more detail so that we can understand what is meant by steady head. Some of the comments regarding vertical movement are very good. Also is the head the same as the upper COG or are the separate? I can find multiple good ball strikers who allow the head to move forward in the swing in order to control the ball flight is that considered bad? Or is steady head just considered not letting it move backwards on the backswing?

Maybe I will have to wait for the DVD which is fine, but just saying steady head is not enough detail for me.

+1

New threads or old threads redirected. I prefer new threads with the new nomenclature of 5 keys incorporated.

Link to post
Share on other sites



Originally Posted by mchepp

but just saying steady head is not enough detail for me.


Agreed completely!  This will be happening soon...at this point just letting everyone know a few of the details and what's coming.  There is PLENTY of detail to come.

Dave

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

So, let's talk about a steady head.  Is the head fixed and imnmoveable in space?  No, of course not.  Think about the sun (or any star with planets.)  As planetary masses move around the center of gravity of the star or sun will move in distorted little ovals within the original volume of the star.  The center of mass moves only a small amount.   Essentially the more massive sun or star stays were it is.  Astronomers study the small wobbles to determine the presence of orbiting masses.  The golf swing has a lot of mass moving around during the backswing, the forward weight shift and turning downswing, and of course the head will wobble slightly.

The head is a large mass in terms of the various parts of the body.  It needs to stay relatively centered, but it will move or wobble slightly in response to the masses moving around during the swing.  Just like a star such as the sun, the center of gravity of the head does not move outside its original physical volume of space, but if you go to the range and watch poor golfers, you will see heads moving all over the place.  I have to chuckle sometimes because it looks like some golfers believe you develop an inside-out swing by trying to move the head back and inside, then ineffectively lunging around trying to get back to some position where the ball can be struck, or topped/chuncked as the case may be.  No one disputes that is very inefficient and difficult to reproduce.  Correction... you can reproduce many bad swings doing it.

Those movements are nothing like the dip of Tiger or the little oval orbit of Nicklaus' head (yes, Jack's head moved in a little orbit.)  Their heads were exactly as Dave describes them, "Steady" but not rigidly clamped in space.  Good teachers know what a normal and acceptable head looks like. But more importantly, there is a consequence to an "Unsteady" or overly moving head and that is inconsistent golf at best.  I've just always enjoyed the description of a massive sun essentially staying in place but wobblying slightly due to the center of mass of system system around it.  After all, the golf swing is a good physics problem anyway.

N.B: Yes I know there are binary stars in which the center of gravity is well outside the volume of either star.  I was just trying to find a simple analogy using a large mass with a very small wobble.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Originally Posted by RC

So, let's talk about a steady head.

Your post is fine, but in general, let's please wait on starting specific threads on each of the Keys or putting them inside this thread. There will be plenty of time for discussion of each of the specifics down the road. Right now the DVD is at least a month out and this thread is simply an introduction, to let people know what's coming. We'll start specific threads for the Keys when the time comes. We promise.

But yes, the head is "steady" and not "still" or "unmoving" or whatever else you could say which implies the wrong thing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...