Tiger Wants to Ban the Long Putter

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by broomhandle

My experience is very much the opposite. EVERYBODY I've let stroke a few with my broomhandles has said 'I don't know how you can use that thing.'

When I bought my first one I can still remember the sales girl saying "Good luck with this, we've all tried it and we stink'.

You have to either be desperate enough or just like new challenges enough to work through a transition.

Most of the stories I've heard about bellies are similar.

It's a lot more difficult to learn to use a long putter than to complain that other people shouldn't be allowed to.

They might help with mental issues but far, far from eliminating them.

I turned on the British Open 4th round very early and watched Adam Scott practice putting for at least an hour. Then he badly botched a short putt for par on the first hole and putted like crap all day..

For about 70 holes the announcers were saying if Els was making anything he'd be leading. He won in spite of finishing about 70 of 80 in putting. The one he dropped on the 72 was the kind you only hope to make. The really mental ones are the short ones you think you should always make. Just yesterday I saw an internet article saying he won because the belly putter let him make the winning putt.

Kite and Singh are legendary practicers. No way they're going long putter to avoid hard work. I don't think there is any pro who went to the long putter in desperation without first putting in enough hard work to believe no amount of work was going to fix the issues.The kids like Bradley are a whole different case. They actually took a risk going to what is still a minority technique very early.

What you're asking is the opposite of what you want to be asking. Let's protect the naturals who pick up a short putter, putt well right away and never get the yips from the plodders who are willing to try anything and everything, working and working  until they putt somewhere close to as well as the naturals and have a chance to beat them from tee to green.

Thing is, it's stories like these (below) that automatically raise suspicion and certainly give the impression that the putters are an "instant fix" (or pretty close to it) and if that's the case, and if they level the playing field to the extent that they can turn a bad putter on the Tour into an average putter and thus win tournaments that some may say weren't "earned", then we shouldn't be at all surprised that the R&A; and USGA decided to examine a serious ban on their use.

Obviously with any putter practice would still be necessary because you still have to be able to read the break and speed of the putt, but if it's, in fact, more difficult to use an anchored putter then what is your theory about why they're becoming popular?  I can't think of a single piece of golf equipment in the past that tried to sell itself on being more difficult or giving absolutely no benefit to your game.

In 15 minutes of searching, here are a few testimonials from pros who seem to disagree with the opinion that they're not an instant cure.

- Dave

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(Adam) Scott freely admits he frowned upon players who used long putters until his putting became so “ atrocious ” earlier this year that he tried the broomstick putter “ as a last resort .”

Since then, the Australian’s had his best finish at a major - tied for second at the Masters - and won the prestigious Bridgestone Invitational.

http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/USGA-needs-to-address-long-putters-082211

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"I'm enjoying it. The more I've spent time with it, the more I'm enjoying it,'' Mickelson said. "I'm not giving shots away on short putts anymore. But again, I've only used it a couple weeks . It's not like I'm sold on it. But it's helped me not throw too many shots away around the greens. I feel like I'm putting short ones a lot better and starting to make some more mid-range. ''

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6997578/do-long-belly-putters-give-golfers-advantage

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"I switched so long ago, it was my first semester at Wake [Forest],'' Simpson said. "Actually it was kind of a joke why I tried it. I went to the pro shop and I was with my dad and I was kind of making fun of the belly putter, and I thought, I just have to make a couple putts with this.

" I went on the green, made a few long ones and thought, this is pretty good. So I took it out on the course for nine holes and made everything . I knew I was going to get made fun of by my teammates, but took it back to Wake. I used it, one of my teammates, two years older than me, he was making fun of me for using it, which I knew he would, but he saw me putt with it and he went out and got the same exact putter and won his first college event two weeks later ."

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6997578/do-long-belly-putters-give-golfers-advantage

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The Long Putter - Peter Senior

I first used a long putter back in 1989 in the British Masters at Woburn. After a first round 74, which included 38 putts with a regular putter, I found myself on the putting green with Sam Torrance, and he let me try one of the very first models that he had been tinkering about with.

It wasn't a pretty thing, but after a few minutes it seemed to work, so I decided to give it a go. The next day I shot a 66, and the long putter has been in my bag ever since .

http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/long_putter.html

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Bayou Boogie

I earlier asked what other precedent where something in golf that has been accepted for long term (not like the Sam Snead croquet stroke) was banned and the example of

square grooves was brought up. I should have framed the question on a usage basis, not an equipment one. This decision would have much more profound effect on thousands of

golfers who would consider giving up the game rather than go back to uncontrollably stabbing at the ball. It ran Ben Hogan out of the game, Johnny Miller also. I would love everyone

on this forum who is in favor of banning the stroke to truly experience full blown yips--not choking over a 3 footer to win a bet, but not being able to get anywhere near the hole

while you are practicing by yourself--with no pressure except when will your right hand will  jump like you have tourettes syndrome.  I think with that perspective, opinions might differ

how a stroke that has been widely commonplace for many years should be regarded. I predict again that the ruling bodies will decide to stay with a long accepted style of putting

that will help to continue to grow the popularity of the game and longevity of everyone who plays it.

While it may be true that thousands do in fact use the anchored style (not sure anyone can know how many there are, and you can't just go by sales because I don't know any golfer who still uses everything he's bought) what is NOT certain is what they will do if rules change.  I have some trouble believing that they would just give up the game if they couldn't use an anchored putter, any more than PGA Tour pros would boycott the Tour if they ban them.

I have some experience in the medical field, and I know there are Parkinson-like disorders that cause involuntary muscle movements that would make putting a nightmare.  I have no doubt that anchored putters would probably help.  But we're not talking about people with disorders because the USGA has separate guidelines for players with legitimate physical conditions.

I would still argue that it's part of the game, and that's why sports psychologists are around.  When I worked ER I trained many people to start IVs and draw blood.  Some of them would hover the needle over the skin for what seemed like an eternity because they had the "yips" and it was difficult for them to make that first move.  We worked through it.  For most of them it was a lack of self-confidence and a fear that they were going to harm the patient.  I honestly believe any golfer can work through it as well.  I'm not saying it's an absolute truth--it's just an opinion based on what I've seen and experienced.  The closest I've seen was the Kevin Na meltdown, and since I don't know him personally I don't know what his problem was/is.  Maybe fear and lack of self-confidence.  Who knows?

But I'm sure you're right...if I suffered from the yips on a regular basis, even on the practice green, I most definitely would feel differently.  This will probably sound insensitive (because I've already reworded it 5 times and it still sounds like I'm saying your crazy...but I swear I'm not) but I still wonder if it's not a psychological problem that should probably be addressed with a professional rather than a new putting style or long putter.  If, indeed, it is psychological then it's possibly something that's affecting more in life than just a golf game.

- Dave

[Chas]

Dave,

I see your point.  Anyone who feels compelled to use a long or belly putter has some sort of a profound psychological impediment and is, in the golfing sense, completely craz .... err, I mean, disturbed.   A certain scene from West Side Story comes to mind, no?

What we need is a new DSM category for a novel mental disorder, vis.

"Yiposis (adj, yipotic): the inability to control a short, unanchored putter due to severe, neurosis-induced involuntary muscle activity (a.k.a. twitchiness).  A direct consequence of the fear of abject humiliation on the green."

I see a whole new category of psychoactive drugs in prospect and a whole new field of drug discovery/development to develop safe and effective therapies. There's big money in this guys, b-i-g.

hmmm, all we need now is a decent animal model and I see a path to FDA approval in 10 years .....

[broomhandle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az

Thing is, it's stories like these (below) that automatically raise suspicion and certainly give the impression that the putters are an "instant fix" (or pretty close to it) and if that's the case, and if they level the playing field to the extent that they can turn a bad putter on the Tour into an average putter and thus win tournaments that some may say weren't "earned", then we shouldn't be at all surprised that the R&A; and USGA decided to examine a serious ban on their use.

Obviously with any putter practice would still be necessary because you still have to be able to read the break and speed of the putt, but if it's, in fact, more difficult to use an anchored putter then what is your theory about why they're becoming popular?  I can't think of a single piece of golf equipment in the past that tried to sell itself on being more difficult or giving absolutely no benefit to your game.

In 15 minutes of searching, here are a few testimonials from pros who seem to disagree with the opinion that they're not an instant cure.

- Dave

----------

(Adam) Scott freely admits he frowned upon players who used long putters until his putting became so “ atrocious ” earlier this year that he tried the broomstick putter “ as a last resort .”

Since then, the Australian’s had his best finish at a major - tied for second at the Masters - and won the prestigious Bridgestone Invitational.

http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/USGA-needs-to-address-long-putters-082211

----------

"I'm enjoying it. The more I've spent time with it, the more I'm enjoying it,'' Mickelson said. "I'm not giving shots away on short putts anymore. But again, I've only used it a couple weeks . It's not like I'm sold on it. But it's helped me not throw too many shots away around the greens. I feel like I'm putting short ones a lot better and starting to make some more mid-range. ''

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6997578/do-long-belly-putters-give-golfers-advantage

----------

"I switched so long ago, it was my first semester at Wake [Forest],'' Simpson said. "Actually it was kind of a joke why I tried it. I went to the pro shop and I was with my dad and I was kind of making fun of the belly putter, and I thought, I just have to make a couple putts with this.

" I went on the green, made a few long ones and thought, this is pretty good. So I took it out on the course for nine holes and made everything . I knew I was going to get made fun of by my teammates, but took it back to Wake. I used it, one of my teammates, two years older than me, he was making fun of me for using it, which I knew he would, but he saw me putt with it and he went out and got the same exact putter and won his first college event two weeks later ."

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6997578/do-long-belly-putters-give-golfers-advantage

----------

The Long Putter - Peter Senior

I first used a long putter back in 1989 in the British Masters at Woburn. After a first round 74, which included 38 putts with a regular putter, I found myself on the putting green with Sam Torrance, and he let me try one of the very first models that he had been tinkering about with.

It wasn't a pretty thing, but after a few minutes it seemed to work, so I decided to give it a go. The next day I shot a 66, and the long putter has been in my bag ever since .

http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/long_putter.html

I never said harder to use I said there is usually a transition period that most people won't work through. You may have shown some exceptions.How do we count how many tried and didn't have a success story? If it didn't at least seem to work better then nobody would be doing it. At the other extreme if it was an instant fix nobody would ever try it and go back.

Scott is still choking short putts. One of his friends said Adam doesn't putt better with the broomhandle he just thinks he does. He's a fantastic young golfer and is going to win some and show 'success' if he can putt even mediocre. Mickelson GAVE UP and went back to short. Not much evidence for an instant fix in either of those stories.

Simpson was young and went belly which is certainly the most likely scenario to putt at least as well right away. I think it's most likely for people with a certain style with the short putter. The story mentioned no particular putting problems he had and as a freshman at a d1 powerhouse he was obviously identified as someone extremely likely to improve before he had even tried the belly. Not much  evidence he 'fixed' anything.

The Senior story is absolutely amazing if literally true. I still wonder if there is a 'well I had messed about with it for a week' postscript.

It looks to me that the stroke he is demonstrating is unanchored but there is no definitive picture. See enforcement post :)

Sam Torrance says he(Sam) stopped anchoring on his own.

If there is a fix here it may not be from anchoring!

Here's a quote from Senior with a different tone:

Quote:

“All of a sudden everybody was on to me,” Senior said to Vartan in his article on PGA.tour.com

“They were saying it should be banned, it’s cheating, all this sort of stuff. But I’ve putted badly with it as well. There’s no recipe for good putting. You’ve still got to work out the line. You’ve got to hit it well.”

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Chas

Dave,

I see your point.  Anyone who feels compelled to use a long or belly putter has some sort of a profound psychological impediment and is, in the golfing sense, completely craz .... err, I mean, disturbed.   A certain scene from West Side Story comes to mind, no?

What we need is a new DSM category for a novel mental disorder, vis.

"Yiposis (adj, yipotic): the inability to control a short, unanchored putter due to severe, neurosis-induced involuntary muscle activity (a.k.a. twitchiness).  A direct consequence of the fear of abject humiliation on the green."

I see a whole new category of psychoactive drugs in prospect and a whole new field of drug discovery/development to develop safe and effective therapies. There's big money in this guys, and I'm talking b-i-g ....

Thanks for the laugh.  :-)

Having never used one on the course, and hearing what people keep saying about how they're more difficult to use and don't improve putting (both statements that have been repeatedly used in this long-ass thread) I honestly can't understand why the people who use them would be unhappy in the least if the USGA saved them the agony by banning them.

Of course I believe I know the truth to that last statement:  because they DO give a player an advantage on the green and that advantage is realized very quickly compared to the length of time it takes to learn a stable, consistent putting stroke.

- Dave

[Chas]

Originally Posted by dave67az

When I worked ER I trained many people to start IVs and draw blood.  Some of them would hover the needle over the skin for what seemed like an eternity because they had the "yips" and it was difficult for them to make that first move.  We worked through it.

Seriously, this is very true.  When I was first taught to exsanguinate a breeder rat in the lab (big fat suckers, about 30 ml of whole blood can be obtained if you're good), I had trouble making that first thrust of the needle into the inferior vena cava, right at the split.  Blood all over my face the first couple times - embarassing and humiliating.  You get through that and it's a piece of cake after a few days.  Nice analogy.

Also seriously, I noticed a while ago that if I try to putt with my right hand only (short putter, right handed), I have a case of the yips something fierce.  I mean the blade wobbles around ridiculously.  But when I put the left hand on the club as well it goes away completely.  Anyone else notice that?  Am I only half crazy in that case?

hmmm, is there a long putter in my future???

Users of long or belly putters have my sympathy, really they do.  Perhaps it is unfair to disallow them the technique, it's hard to say.   I'm a traditionalist when it comes to golf, yet I have a 460 and a hybrid in the bag.  Where do you draw the line?

[Henny Bogan]

Originally Posted by brocks

At his press conference today, Tiger revealed that he has been talking with Peter Dawson of the R&A; for "a number of years" about banning the long putter. Tiger wants to restrict the length of the putter to no longer than the shortest other club in the bag.

I agree with him -- not only does anchoring the putter against the body go against the spirit of the game IMO, but having a super long putter gives a player an unfair advantage when measuring club lengths for a drop.

But I can just hear the howls about how the USGA/R&A; are kowtowing to Tiger, if they do come up with some kind of ban.

For historical perspective, a few decades ago some pros, notably Sam Snead, were experimenting with croquet putting, where you straddle the line and face the hole, swinging the putter between your legs. It didn't take them very long to ban that

What do you think? Ban it? Allow it for amateurs, but not for pros? Or leave it alone?

I personally don't have a problem with the long putter, but I can understand why some feel it should be banned, so I'm in agreement with TDUB and others who are awaiting that day.

[geebee]

The R & A and the USGA make the rules of golf. My understanding is that the traditionalists in the R&A; are not pro the long or the belly putter, and it would not be unreasonable to assume the same applies in the USGA. They virtually always speak as one on these matters and it occurs to me that perhaps they privately do not agree on this. When they are at odds , nothing happens.

I have wondered why these two august bodies take so long to examine and pronounce on equipment which is  significantly different to the norm, particularly remembering the Ping grooves issue which caused so much cost and bother. The longer it goes on ,the harder it is to change the rule.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Bayou Boogie

I earlier asked what other precedent where something in golf that has been accepted for long term (not like the Sam Snead croquet stroke) was banned and the example of

square grooves was brought up. I should have framed the question on a usage basis, not an equipment one.

Even if there was no answer to that question (there are), so what? You'd be arguing for keeping a rule they feel is bad just because there's no precedent for removing a bad rule that affects "usage." That's not a good reason IMO.

It's a straw man question.

[Chas]

Exactly.  Why should anyone care that much about how long the authorities have taken to bring the matter forward for a decision?  There are many possible explanations for their tardiness and we don't have the inside info necessary to sort them out.  Personally I'm only mildly interested to know the answer to that particular question, which is irrelevant to the decision about to be made.

What we should care about are the pros and cons of the measure.  Not an easy call, that much we can probably agree on.

[VegasRenegade]

Then you would need to ban all game improvement clubs. Big drivers, cavity back irons. Graphite shafts. 3 piece balls. etc. Or am I missing something?

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

Then you would need to ban all game improvement clubs. Big drivers, cavity back irons. Graphite shafts. 3 piece balls. etc. Or am I missing something?

In my opinion, you are missing something.  I don't work for the USGA, but based on everything I know of them, here is what I think is going on.

I believe the USGA has always known that the game of golf will gradually evolve, as all sports evolve.  It is their job to control that evolution to make sure that it occurs at a slow, steady pace in order to maintain the connection to the original style of play.  So each time a new piece of equipment or unusual style is introduced to the game, a committee has to decide if that piece of equipment or unusual style threatens those golfing traditions to the extent that it represents too great of a leap in the game's natural evolution.

Size and shape of clubs has been allowed to gradually change, but when the drivers were getting ridiculously big the USGA stepped in and capped the size.  Personally I wish they had done it sooner.  Funny that you mention graphite shafts, because they probably said the same thing about steel shafts a few decades ago.  The balls also have undergone a lot of evolution over the past 100 years.  But look at each of those things you mentioned and ask yourself how each of them has changed the game.  None of them require you to change your grip.  None of them require you to change your stance.  None of them require you to significantly change your swing.  Have they made the game easier?  Of course they have.  Just as mass production of golf clubs made golf easier.  Golf also got a lot easier when they found a way to groom the greens and fairways so the ball would have a more consistent lie and roll.  But NONE of those advancements made significant changes to the fundamentals of the game (objectives, grip, stance, swing, etc).

Enter the funky putters.  Over the years the USGA always had the opportunity to ban long putters and the anchored style.  Fact is, they've been around for a LONG time.  But even though there were always a few people out there who were using it, it never presented a threat to the fundamentals of the game because the vast majority of people still used the traditional putter and style.  That's not true anymore.  The number of people using long putters and the anchored style is growing significantly, and along with that are stories of pros who picked one up and saw NEAR IMMEDIATE improvement to their game.

You know how to increase sales of a golf club exponentially?  Get some pros to say they picked one up and saw a near immediate improvement to their game.

The last thing the USGA and the R&A; want is to see a new generation of young golfers who have never learned to putt the traditional way because they were taught anchored putting from the first time they picked up a putter.  THIS is the threat to the game.

Remember what I asked about the mammoth drivers, shafts and ball improvements?  Now ask yourself the same question about the anchored putter.  Does it make you change your grip?  Does it make you change your stance?  Does it make you change your swing?  Is it, then, a threat to the fundamentals of golf?

I say yes.

Some will argue that they're easier on the back, but I spent over 20 years in healthcare and I also suffer from chronic low back pain (because I was an idiot when I was young) and I just don't see it.  After hearing those comments on here I paid close attention to the various anchored stances this past weekend and there's no way I can see a belly putter being better for your back.  The broomhandle, maybe, but even that style requires a little bend at the waist and when my back is hurting after being on my feet for long periods sometimes the LITTLE bends hurt more than BIG bends.  Again, just my own experience, but it's a moot point because the USGA already makes exceptions to just about ANY rule that might inhibit golfers with physical conditions.  The overall goal is to maintain the SPIRIT of the rules (true to the traditions of the game).  But nobody is going to tell you you can't bring your wheelchair to the course because it's "building a stance".

Anchored styles don't fit well with the traditions of the game, but they weren't a threat to those traditions until very recently.  I imagine the folks at the R&A; and USGA figured it would be a fad that would die out eventually so it wasn't worth addressing.  They probably thought the same thing about the drivers.  I mean eventually people have to realize how stupid they look and go back to the NORMAL sized drivers, right?  Wrong.  Turns out the same people who think driving the biggest truck or biggest SUV on earth is necessary for their manhood are also willing to embarrass themselves by buying the biggest club available.  I swear some of the guys I know would swing a 1000cc driver if they made one.  That's a full liter.  But that's exactly where we were headed when the USGA said "uh, no you morons, 460cc is ridiculous enough".

So yeah, anchored putters weren't always a significant threat to the game, but they are now.  As soon as people started winning more than occasionally with them, they became a threat.  Everyone wants to use what the winning pros are using (why do you think Golf Digest has a section each month about what the pros are carrying in their bags?).

So if you're comparing big drivers, graphite shafts, and three-piece balls to anchored putters then yes, I think you're missing something.

- Dave

[VegasRenegade]

Originally Posted by dave67az

In my opinion, you are missing something.  I don't work for the USGA, but based on everything I know of them, here is what I think is going on.

Nice post Dave. For the most my post was tongue in cheek. I do not use a long putter but I use all the rest.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by dave67az

there's no way I can see a belly putter being better for your back.

- Dave

Freddy Couples would disagree with you.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Freddy Couples would disagree with you.

If he's stressing less over putts since he has an anchored putter, and missing fewer of those putts because he doesn't have to contend with the "yips" anymore, I'll betcha his back pain relief is a LOT in his head.  Just like Tiger this past weekend.  Did you notice how his back pain seemed to bother him a lot more after bad shots or when he was stumbling into a bunker?

I'm not saying he doesn't BELIEVE the pain is better.

I'm just saying that I don't see a plausible explanation for why the pain is better.

But know this...if HE believes the pain is better with the belly putter, then that's all that matters.  It's just like the people in drug studies whose symptoms improve when, in fact, they're in the control group taking placebos.  There are plenty of treatments in the world that work for some people simply because they believe they will work, but have no effect on anyone else.  I've seen patients before who told me that some things worked that I knew shouldn't have worked.  I've had some tell me that a certain brand of pain reliever worked better for them than another.  As impossible as I know that is, I would never tell them that it was all in their heads.  Why?  Because if they THINK their pain is gone, that's all that matters.  Why should I ruin their placebo effect?

But here's why I have trouble understanding the actual benefit to someone with back problems, in case you're curious (you're not?  oh...sorry).

Here are some shots of typical putting stances...http://www.andrewricegolf.com/tag/putting-set-up/

Here's Freddy's stance with the belly putter...http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/what-ive-learned-fred-couples-how-get-most-out-golf-and-your-game151and-have-great-tim?page=2

Not sure if we have any orthopods out there in SandTrap land but, if not, anyone with serious back pain should be able to look at these and tell you that, when your back is hurting, BOTH styles are going to hurt because both styles require around a 45-degree bend at the waist.

I still say it's in his head.

However, if it's helping anyone in this forum, I can assure you there's probably a good medical explanation and I don't know what I'm talking about so please keep doing what you're doing!

- Dave

[JerseyThursday]

Originally Posted by Chas

Also seriously, I noticed a while ago that if I try to putt with my right hand only (short putter, right handed), I have a case of the yips something fierce.  I mean the blade wobbles around ridiculously.  But when I put the left hand on the club as well it goes away completely.  Anyone else notice that?  Am I only half crazy in that case?

Mark O'Mera had the same problem. Here he does a good job of explaining it.

[Chas]

Thanks Jersey, that is very interesting.  Maybe I should try a claw grip or O'Mera's saw grip or some such.  But I'm thinking that when I hold the putter with both hands, i.e. when the left hand is largely controlling putter face angle and the right hand is largely determining power, the right-hand "yip" doesn't come into play.  I say that because I don't sense any sort of a wobble in an actual putt on the green - which doesn't mean it isn't there of course.

My main problems with putting are 1) hitting with the correct speed and 2) reading the break.  Frankly I'm pretty poor at both of these at times, resulting in too many 3-putts from 25-50 ft and far too few makes from 5-15 ft  I'm fairly confident in hitting the ball close to where I aim, now that I'm playing the Odyssey 2-ball which feels very stable in my hands.

But I might still try what O'Mera is suggesting.  I mean, who knows in the end?, maybe it IS a problem for me.  There's no doubt I've got a major case of the right-hand-only-yips, happens almost every time I try putting one-handed - but not when putting left-hand-only.

[Bayou Boogie]

Originally Posted by JerseyThursday

Mark O'Mera had the same problem. Here he does a good job of explaining it.

Whew--that looks pretty weird and not keeping to the traditions of the stroke and grip, hey here's an idea, let's also ban that while we're banning the

"unorthodox" anchored stroke.